Every President would have loved to have the FBI’s assistance in spying on Americans.
Don’t kid yourself. There is nothing partisan about it.
It is much easier to get this done in the name of ‘Homeland Security’ obviously.
Nothing like paying to spy on myself.
When you sacrifice liberty for security you get neither.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Nep, I think terrorism is something that is loosely defined and that it is used to justify a lot of changes. No, I really don’t mind if real criminals are caught because there aren’t many terrorists to catch…
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with that… I just don’t understand your choice of complaints, here. I don’t support giving the FBI additional powers, or the ability to do more without a warrant. But if we’re talking about making them more efficient and giving them the means to fight crime legitimately, I don’t understand why anyone would argue with that.
I hold no love for the recent supreme court decisions you mentioned… I think they are deeply flawed in quite a few ways. But I don’t think they’re linked the same way you do. Would it be better if we had unfair laws, but they were enforced (or not) by an inept police force?
Actually, I hope that the government uses all of the new and old powers to the fullest extent it can. I hope it gets a lot of publicity. It’s actually better when laws are strictly enforced, because people see what their full consequences are, and are suitably motivated to change them. I hope there are a rash of land seizings as a result of the SC decision, for example… because people will make themselves heard that this isn’t acceptable.
Domestic Spy Service
Nothing wrong with that, look at Gestapo, they did a really good job.
Your “freedom” is precious, it’s worth to defend at any cost.
Yup but americans love to go on about their freedom but don’t realse they are perhaps the least free nation in the western world.
[quote]ConorM wrote:
Yup but americans love to go on about their freedom but don’t realse they are perhaps the least free nation in the western world.[/quote]
What?
[quote]Pretzel Logic wrote:
ConorM wrote:
Yup but americans love to go on about their freedom but don’t realse they are perhaps the least free nation in the western world.
What?
[/quote]
You are the last one that needs to be questioning anyone else’s “logic”.
[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
Nothing wrong with that, look at Gestapo, they did a really good job.
[/quote]
Explain to me how this is relevant? I didn’t know that the FBI is supposed to start gathering up Jews and gassing them. That changes everything!
So what should we do, Mr. Moose, get rid of the FBI altogether? Just asking.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
So what should we do, Mr. Moose, get rid of the FBI altogether? Just asking. [/quote]
Or stop giving them more and more power…one of the two.
Sorry if I was a bit unclear. Gestapo started up Stazi(sp) which was their secret police/domestic spies.
Their “job” was to gather information about anyone who might be aginst the state. As far as I know they didn’t have anything to do directly with the holocaust.
They took anyone who might have said something that might be interpreted as being against the state for questioning and sometimes those people just disappeared!! In the end nobody dared to say anything because they didn’t know if even their best friend was an informer for Stazi. How’s that for freedom?
That wasn’t THAT long ago and unfortunately histort tend to repeat itself. Once the snowball start rolling it might be hard to stop.
[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
Sorry if I was a bit unclear. Gestapo started up Stazi(sp) which was their secret police/domestic spies.
Their “job” was to gather information about anyone who might be aginst the state. As far as I know they didn’t have anything to do directly with the holocaust.
They took anyone who might have said something that might be interpreted as being against the state for questioning and sometimes those people just disappeared!! In the end nobody dared to say anything because they didn’t know if even their best friend was an informer for Stazi. How’s that for freedom?
That wasn’t THAT long ago and unfortunately histort tend to repeat itself. Once the snowball start rolling it might be hard to stop.[/quote]
I think you made a very good point. We are already seeing it in higher government. Some politicians are now basically in fear of even holding an open opinion because of how it may be used against them later should they ever run for office. With enough “fear” in place, we could very well be on our way to becoming a society looking for “terrorists” in every neighbor.
I think the outcome of this, eventually, will lead to a very negative end. What I truly don’t understand is why this is coming from a political party that claims it wants “smaller government”. This has turned into the largest hypocrisy that could have ever been imagined.
The one real question I have is, why does it seem as if so many are unable to see the possible negatives?
[quote]vroom wrote:
I think it’s a great idea to spy on your fellow citizens.
Now we’ll really know who is sleeping with who and what their orientation really is.
These are pressing matters of national interest!
I can’t imagine even a single way in which an abuse of authority could occur in a situation where the government is allowed to spy on it’s own citizens.
Especially when those citizens, such as senators and other elected officials, might be contacted by illicit groups from time to time. Obviously they should all be watched at all times!
It’s important to get dirt off all the representatives! How else to keep them clean?
What’s next? I think some type of combination of church and state should be attempted, the time is ripe! I can’t wait. I’m like a kid in a candy store the night before Christmas.[/quote]
…He Loved Big Brother.
Hey, gents. I just wanted to wish everyone a Happy 4th of July. Even you, vroom. Oh, and drugs + money = terrorism. Maybe not your average pot smoking teenager is directly contributing, but terrorism is more than a lever to loosen the coffers and whoa you lost me. Terrorism is striking fear in those who did not provoke a fight. But there is more to that. Killing children? WTF? Bombs/gas on subways, planes into buildings, internet beheadings. That is scary shit. I am thankful for where I live, Happy 4th everyone.
[quote]Michael C wrote:
Hey, gents. I just wanted to wish everyone a Happy 4th of July. Even you, vroom. Oh, and drugs + money = terrorism. Maybe not your average pot smoking teenager is directly contributing, but terrorism is more than a lever to loosen the coffers and whoa you lost me. Terrorism is striking fear in those who did not provoke a fight. But there is more to that. Killing children? WTF? Bombs/gas on subways, planes into buildings, internet beheadings. That is scary shit. I am thankful for where I live, Happy 4th everyone.[/quote]
Now when we’re talking about terrorism… Did you know that you Americans were the greatest contributer to one of the oldest terrorist groups in Europe? Irish Americans sent money home to Ulster(Northern Ireland),without that money IRA would NOT have been able to continue as long as they did. How many lives are you Americans (indirectly) responsible for?
Before you start to flame me, this info is from a former IRA guy I know very well. Lots of “strange” people end up here in Thailand.
Happy 4:th of July
Mr. Moose,
Ok, I can roll with that. I by no means have all the answers and I hope I do not come off like I do. How many non-combatant lives were lost in the fight against terrorism? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Do ohter countries perceive Americans as terrorists? Stupid question. I know I felt like a T-1000 (Terminator) when I was sent to the children’s school in downtown Fallujah one month after my battalion helped ‘secure’ the cockroach/insurgent infested city.
We had to ‘re-humanize’ ourselves in the eyes of the children. I know it is hard to admit, but lives will be lost when religio-politicals clash. I know this next statement is extremely vague, but history outlines this for us and guides us in what to expect.
“The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions . . . but by iron and blood.” – Otto Von Bismarck
Michael
Me personally I’m happy I don’t have all the answers. Wouldn’t it be damn frustrating to tell people what they have to do and nobody listens?
The war on terrorism, I think we’re doing it the wrong way. We’re too soft, we have to lower ourselves to their level. They blow up a truck, we blow up a village, they send a suicidebomber, we blow up a village… We have to make them relize that whatever they do they will lose more. Yes, innocent people will die but that’s what makes it work. Not politically correct, I know but in the long run we’ll save lives. We have to make the Iraquis solve the problem, as it is now they are helping the terrorists. Maybe they see themselves as freedom fighters since they are fighting to “free” their country? Whatever is done over there doesn’t seem to work? Or maybe it’s the way it’s being done?
Here’s copy of an E-mail from a friend who’s working over there, BTW he’s Brittish.
In Baghdad welcomed with 2 car bombs and shooting
about 300 metres away. Far more interesting than the
last place and job, Body Guarding a bunch of Engineers
at a power plant.
Iraqia are the laziest, most pig headed, greedy,
robbing, lying idiots I think I have ever meet.
The best way to handle them is to give them enough
rope to hang themselves and let them see how stupid
they are, it’s a slow process but it appears to be
working and the good guys (there are some) will back
you to the hilt. Unfortunitly the US troops here have
absolutely no hearts and minds approach to the locals.
Which only fuels the fire.
I now have regular access to the internet so I’ll
update more often. I hope things are ok with you.
All the best,
Paul.
Sounds like nice place ;-)If it wasn’t for the oil, would it be worth “saving”?
Mr. Moose,
Lower ourselves?! I know my integrity is literally the only thing besides my wife and family that I hold more important than my physical well-being. I would never want to lower myself to what your friend calls, “filthy, robbing, lying pigs.” We are kicking the shit out of these fuckers, and you think we should lower our moral standard to win a war that is being won by a tide of successes.
Schools, hospitals, mosques, libraries, clean water. WTF, man? You said it yourself, innocent lives will be lost. But those who say this are not willing to accept that it goes both ways, even when the body count is bad guy 100, US soldier/Marine 1. Carpet bombing or nuclear bombs are your answer. Hear me loud and clear: that is not the answer. And then you bring up oil. Didn’t Iraq invade Kuwait…nope, I am done. I am wasting my time.
How many have lost their lives since Bush declared the war over?
To me it seems something is NOT working.
There’s one thing here that’s similar to the Vietnam war.
You win the battles but you lose the war.
well, if American want to win the war, you have to give up some of your Bill of Rights.
So Bush sets up domestic spy agency. He isn’t the first and are people actually surprised by this?