“Iran’s actions threaten the security of nations everywhere” – President Bush
Not to be technical, but “nations everywhere” are a lot more likely to be attacked or invaded by the US than by Iran. In fact, most of you probably don’t know the last time Iran engaged in a war of aggression.
So, Bushism or real threat?
P.S: The quote is from the speech Bush gave yesterday in Reno.
[quote]lixy wrote:
“Iran’s actions threaten the security of nations everywhere” – President Bush
Not to be technical, but “nations everywhere” are a lot more likely to be attacked or invaded by the US than by Iran. In fact, most of you probably don’t know the last time Iran engaged in a war of aggression.
So, Bushism or real threat?
P.S: The quote is from the speech Bush gave yesterday in Reno.
BBC NEWS | Americas | Bush warns Iran over insurgents [/quote]
Ok, on a different note, what’s with Iran’s president saying that their country and their friends Saudi Arabia will carve up Iraq when the US leaves?
Doesn’t SA back AQ and aren’t they allegedly enemies with Iran’s Shia? Or are they all brothers after all?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Doesn’t SA back AQ and aren’t they allegedly enemies with Iran’s Shia? Or are they all brothers after all?[/quote]
Saudi Arabia pretty much IS Al-Qaeda (along with Pakistan). That should answer the first part of your question.
The Shi’ites have traditionally been a lot more tolerant than the Sunnis. That is, they were a lot less hostile and belligerent. They just wanted to be left alone.
Now, among the Sunnis, Wahabbis are the crazy bunch. Contrast religious freedoms in Tunisia and Saudi Arabia to understand just how fcsked up the Wahabbis are.
Iranians Shi’ites recognize Sunnis as fellow Muslims, but as those whose religion is incomplete. Saudis consider the rituals of the Shia to be the epitome of shirk (polytheism; literally “association”), and as such, are actively fighting the Shi’ites. Shi’ites in Saudi Arabia are treated like second class citizens, whereas Sunnis in Iran enjoy full rights.
Hope that helps.
Iran defense chief says new bomb would be used on ‘our enemies’
By Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press | August 27, 2007
TEHRAN – Iran vowed yesterday to use a new 2,000-pound “smart” bomb against its enemies and unveiled mass production of the new weapon, state television reported.
Breaking News Alerts The government first announced development of the long-range guided bomb Thursday, saying it could be deployed by the country’s aging US-made F-4 and F-5 fighter jets.
“We will use these [bombs] against our enemies when the time comes,” Defense Minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar said on state television yesterday."
Yep, those peace-lovers are are planting flowers and blowing the Israelis kisses…
[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Doesn’t SA back AQ and aren’t they allegedly enemies with Iran’s Shia? Or are they all brothers after all?
Saudi Arabia pretty much IS Al-Qaeda (along with Pakistan). That should answer the first part of your question.
The Shi’ites have traditionally been a lot more tolerant than the Sunnis. That is, they were a lot less hostile and belligerent. They just wanted to be left alone.
Now, among the Sunnis, Wahabbis are the crazy bunch. Contrast religious freedoms in Tunisia and Saudi Arabia to understand just how fcsked up the Wahabbis are.
Iranians Shi’ites recognize Sunnis as fellow Muslims, but as those whose religion is incomplete. Saudis consider the rituals of the Shia to be the epitome of shirk (polytheism; literally “association”), and as such, are actively fighting the Shi’ites. Shi’ites in Saudi Arabia are treated like second class citizens, whereas Sunnis in Iran enjoy full rights.
Hope that helps.[/quote]
…and they all hate America.
Thanks Lixy, it does help.
What do you think would happen if the U.S. were to withdraw completely w/i the next year?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Iran defense chief says new bomb would be used on ‘our enemies’
By Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press | August 27, 2007
TEHRAN – Iran vowed yesterday to use a new 2,000-pound “smart” bomb against its enemies and unveiled mass production of the new weapon, state television reported.
Breaking News Alerts The government first announced development of the long-range guided bomb Thursday, saying it could be deployed by the country’s aging US-made F-4 and F-5 fighter jets.
“We will use these [bombs] against our enemies when the time comes,” Defense Minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar said on state television yesterday."
Yep, those peace-lovers are are planting flowers and blowing the Israelis kisses…
[/quote]
Smartest thing they could do with that bomb is leave it in storage. Iranian Air Force wouldn’t last 24 hrs. if they fly against the US or Israel.
[quote]new2training wrote:
Thanks Lixy, it does help.
What do you think would happen if the U.S. were to withdraw completely w/i the next year?[/quote]
From where exactly? US troops are all over the world (over 120 countries according to the DoD.)
[quote]hedo wrote:
Smartest thing they could do with that bomb is leave it in storage. Iranian Air Force wouldn’t last 24 hrs. if they fly against the US or Israel. [/quote]
Glad to see some common sense in your posts hedo.
[quote]lixy wrote:
new2training wrote:
Thanks Lixy, it does help.
What do you think would happen if the U.S. were to withdraw completely w/i the next year?
From where exactly? US troops are all over the world (over 120 countries according to the DoD.)
[/quote]
Sorry for the vague question. I was thinking specifically of Iraq.
But also interested in your projections if we left the entire Middle East.
Genuine question.
To give you some incite into my perspective, I would like nothing more than for us to be able to withdraw all of our troops from the middle east and allow the countries there to peacefully go about their business. I think most Americans would.
However, our fear is that it would be anything but peaceful. We could probably live with the brutality that they would inflict on themselves, although it would be catastrophic in scale and a human rights nightmare. What is not going to be accepted is when their violence spills over into our world. And I think it is certain that it would.
Again, I would really like to hear your thoughts on what would transpire if we pulled our forces out of Iraq and the middle east in general.
[quote]new2training wrote:
…
However, our fear is that it would be anything but peaceful. We could probably live with the brutality that they would inflict on themselves, although it would be catastrophic in scale and a human rights nightmare. What is not going to be accepted is when their violence spills over into our world. And I think it is certain that it would.
…[/quote]
It always has in the past. Between the Barbary pirates back in Jefferson’s day to the Iranians mining the Straights of Hormuz to the present day mess it is obvious that leaving that part of the world alone is not an option.
They fuck with everyone that comes near them so it is better to deal from a position of powe.
[quote]new2training wrote:
To give you some incite into my perspective, I would like nothing more than for us to be able to withdraw all of our troops from the middle east and allow the countries there to peacefully go about their business. I think most Americans would. [/quote]
I have no doubt about that. Sadly, the will of the people is all but represented nowadays…
Well, I don’t think it could get any messier than it is already.
I don’t see what you mean. From my standpoint, there’s already a catastrophe of epic proportions going on. Look at the occupied territories and tell me that it’s not a “human right’s nightmare”.
Good point. Trouble in the ME means bad news for oil-addicts.
That said, none of the countries in the ME have any chance of threatening the sovereignty of the US.
If you pull out of Iraq (which I speculate is not ever gonna happen), the massive political blocks that are currently boycotting elections are gonna completely reshuffle the current situation. Parliament is almost assured to be predominently Shi’a, and obviously won’t like the idea of an Iraq pimping out to the West. The net result will be a natural alliance between the Shi’ites in the region. Saudis won’t like that one bit since it’ll give Saudi Shi’ites ideas. The Kurds in the north will continue their struggle to gain an independent state, and Turkey will severly frown on their actions as they might incite Turkish Kurds to do the same.
At the end of the day, I predict Shi’ites and Sunnis will get along just fine (Tikrit will be an exception for a while, but they will ultimately resign to living like everyone else). Kurds are very likely to get their own state, and I don’t see why the rest of the country - if properly represented in government - having a problem with that.
That’s for the mess that is modern day Iraq.
As for the ME in general, it all depends. If you mean that you won’t be sending billions of dollars of weapons to Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and your other buddies, then I guess Iran will start weighting in on issues more assertively. If you keep giving away bombs like candy, I don’t see anything changing in the medium term.
Now, if the Ayatollah was just blowing smoke with his “no-military-nukes” fatwa, we might actually see a quite stable ME arising. I hate all sorts of WMDs, but I have to admit that a nuke arsenal totally changes the power balance. Israel and Pakistan will not be the only big dogs anymore, and everyone will start considering what Tehran has to say. Of course, with Turkey in the EU, Ankara will benefit from the considerable of the union, and ultimately, will have to clean up its act regarding human rights (that is, if they wanna have a chance at full membership).
The Chinese will very likely become best buddies with Afghanistan. Sooner or later after the US withdraws their support, the house of the Al-Saud will fall to be replaced by more democratic institutions.
All in all, with nuke deterrence, people will be forced to tolerate each other.
But, the Israelo-Palestinian conflict will go on. No matter how much pressure is put by the international community, Israel will never budge an inch from the position it has sacrificed so much for (yeah, you read that right!).
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians will continue in their spiral of radicalization; Israel’s government will become even more right-extremists, and Palestinians will never stop resisting and will continue voting for people who promise change.
The biggest loser in all this will be the USA and its oil companies. And once you look at the money made in the region by those, you’ll automatically realize that everything I said is pure fiction. The US will never leave. I’ll go as far as say that, if Ron Paul is elected president, a coup will be staged.
[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
Smartest thing they could do with that bomb is leave it in storage. Iranian Air Force wouldn’t last 24 hrs. if they fly against the US or Israel.
Glad to see some common sense in your posts hedo.
[/quote]
Still waiting to see some in your’s Lixy.
I see numerous people bash Lixy in this forum, yet for some reason he/she is the only one ever posting long, well thought out arguments with links to support the argument.
[quote]lixy wrote:
I have no doubt about that. Sadly, the will of the people is all but represented nowadays…
However, our fear is that it would be anything but peaceful.
Well, I don’t think it could get any messier than it is already.
We could probably live with the brutality that they would inflict on themselves, although it would be catastrophic in scale and a human rights nightmare.
I don’t see what you mean. From my standpoint, there’s already a catastrophe of epic proportions going on. Look at the occupied territories and tell me that it’s not a “human right’s nightmare”.
What is not going to be accepted is when their violence spills over into our world. And I think it is certain that it would.
Good point. Trouble in the ME means bad news for oil-addicts.
That said, none of the countries in the ME have any chance of threatening the sovereignty of the US.
Again, I would really like to hear your thoughts on what would transpire if we pulled our forces out of Iraq and the middle east in general.
If you pull out of Iraq (which I speculate is not ever gonna happen), the massive political blocks that are currently boycotting elections are gonna completely reshuffle the current situation. Parliament is almost assured to be predominently Shi’a, and obviously won’t like the idea of an Iraq pimping out to the West. The net result will be a natural alliance between the Shi’ites in the region. Saudis won’t like that one bit since it’ll give Saudi Shi’ites ideas. The Kurds in the north will continue their struggle to gain an independent state, and Turkey will severly frown on their actions as they might incite Turkish Kurds to do the same.
At the end of the day, I predict Shi’ites and Sunnis will get along just fine (Tikrit will be an exception for a while, but they will ultimately resign to living like everyone else). Kurds are very likely to get their own state, and I don’t see why the rest of the country - if properly represented in government - having a problem with that.
That’s for the mess that is modern day Iraq.
As for the ME in general, it all depends. If you mean that you won’t be sending billions of dollars of weapons to Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and your other buddies, then I guess Iran will start weighting in on issues more assertively. If you keep giving away bombs like candy, I don’t see anything changing in the medium term.
Now, if the Ayatollah was just blowing smoke with his “no-military-nukes” fatwa, we might actually see a quite stable ME arising. I hate all sorts of WMDs, but I have to admit that a nuke arsenal totally changes the power balance. Israel and Pakistan will not be the only big dogs anymore, and everyone will start considering what Tehran has to say. Of course, with Turkey in the EU, Ankara will benefit from the considerable of the union, and ultimately, will have to clean up its act regarding human rights (that is, if they wanna have a chance at full membership).
The Chinese will very likely become best buddies with Afghanistan. Sooner or later after the US withdraws their support, the house of the Al-Saud will fall to be replaced by more democratic institutions.
All in all, with nuke deterrence, people will be forced to tolerate each other.
But, the Israelo-Palestinian conflict will go on. No matter how much pressure is put by the international community, Israel will never budge an inch from the position it has sacrificed so much for (yeah, you read that right!).
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians will continue in their spiral of radicalization; Israel’s government will become even more right-extremists, and Palestinians will never stop resisting and will continue voting for people who promise change.
The biggest loser in all this will be the USA and its oil companies. And once you look at the money made in the region by those, you’ll automatically realize that everything I said is pure fiction. The US will never leave. I’ll go as far as say that, if Ron Paul is elected president, a coup will be staged.[/quote]
Thanks for the response Lixy.
I don’t really have a good understanding of Middle Eastern culture and politics so its good to at least hear your perspective.
One thing I would point out is that I agree that the current situation is already a human rights nightmare. Some of it caused by our presence there. Much of it inflicted on the Middle Eastern people by their own governments and peoples.
However, I believe it would get exponentially worse if we left. The different ethnic groups are already slaughtering each other, even with a common enemy there (the U.S.)
As far as our dependence on Middle Eastern Oil. Yes, that is sad and is causing our country a lot of unnecessary problems. Believe me, there is a growing awareness that it is a poison to our society. Hopefully, our dependence will end sometime in the future. First, on Middle Eastern Oil, then on oil on general.
However, if the world’s dependence on oil ever abates, the Middle East will be in dire straights. It seems to me that their entire economies would collapse w/o oil revenues.
Again, thank you for your response.
[quote]new2training wrote:
One thing I would point out is that I agree that the current situation is already a human rights nightmare. Some of it caused by our presence there. Much of it inflicted on the Middle Eastern people by their own governments and peoples. [/quote]
Absolutely. You left out an important piece of the puzzle though, and that is that those tyrannic regimes are supported by the traditional empirical powers in general, and the US in particular.
Common enemy? Hardly. The US has very amazingly few enemies down there. The only ones I can think of are Iran and the Occupied Territories. The rest are all allies of Washington.
Yep. As far as I can tell, Iran and the UAEs are the only countries doing something about it. The rest will crash and burn.
It’s a pleasure.
[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
I see numerous people bash Lixy in this forum, yet for some reason he/she is the only one ever posting long, well thought out arguments with links to support the argument.[/quote]
Because personal attacks are much easier than well thought out arguments. Hasn’t FOX news taught you anything? 
[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
I see numerous people bash Lixy in this forum, yet for some reason he/she is the only one ever posting long, well thought out arguments with links to support the argument.[/quote]
This has to be a joke. This is a joke, right?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
I see numerous people bash Lixy in this forum, yet for some reason he/she is the only one ever posting long, well thought out arguments with links to support the argument.
This has to be a joke. This is a joke, right?
[/quote]
I don’t know about that. JTF often has a lot of links to support his arguements.
“Common enemy? Hardly. The US has very amazingly few enemies down there. The only ones I can think of are Iran and the Occupied Territories. The rest are all allies of Washington.”
I would disagree. Yes, they are allies due to economic reasons. But there has been chaos, unrest and fighting for thousands of years in that region.
Bottom line…Arab ( and anti-Semitic ) blood stick to together in times of total crisis. The US is Israel in their eyes…whether those eyes are Iranian, Iraqi, Saudi, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, etc.
If SA is AQ, and they are our ‘allies’ then what the #### are we doing ?!
Want to REALLY solve the ME crisis. Give back the land Israel occupies. It will NEVER happen…so…a ME crisis will endure FOREVER. Regardless of how many nations we try to ‘Democratize’ It does not work. They LOVE being in crisis…it’s in their blood.
It’s only a matter of time before humans evaporate themselves via nukes and the bees/roaches rule the earth.