Bush Lets US Spy On Callers Without Courts

The WSJ had a great editorial today on the subject – here’s the key excerpt:

[i]The allegation of Presidential law-breaking rests solely on the fact that Mr. Bush authorized wiretaps without first getting the approval of the court established under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978. But no Administration then or since has ever conceded that that Act trumped a President’s power to make exceptions to FISA if national security required it. FISA established a process by which certain wiretaps in the context of the Cold War could be approved, not a limit on what wiretaps could ever be allowed.

The courts have been explicit on this point, most recently in In Re: Sealed Case, the 2002 opinion by the special panel of appellate judges established to hear FISA appeals. In its per curiam opinion, the court noted that in a previous FISA case (U.S. v. Truong), a federal “court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue [our emphasis], held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.” And further that, “We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power.”[/i]

This is another good observation:

[i]As for power without responsibility, nobody beats Congress. Mr. Bush has publicly acknowledged and defended his decisions. But the Members of Congress who were informed about this all along are now either silent or claim they didn’t get the full story. This is why these columns have long opposed requiring the disclosure of classified operations to the Congressional Intelligence Committees. Congress wants to be aware of everything the executive branch does, but without being accountable for anything at all. If Democrats want to continue this game of intelligence and wiretap “gotcha,” the White House should release the names of every Congressman who received such a briefing.

Which brings us to this national security leak, which Mr. Bush yesterday called “a shameful act.” We won’t second guess the New York Times decision to publish. But everyone should note the irony that both the Times and Washington Post claimed to be outraged by, and demanded a special counsel to investigate, the leak of Valerie Plame’s identity, which did zero national security damage.

By contrast, the Times’s NSA leak last week, and an earlier leak in the Washington Post on “secret” prisons for al Qaeda detainees in Europe, are likely to do genuine harm by alerting terrorists to our defenses. If more reporters from these newspapers now face the choice of revealing their sources or ending up in jail, those two papers will share the Plame blame.

The NSA wiretap uproar is one of those episodes, alas far too common, that makes us wonder if Washington is still a serious place. Too many in the media and on Capitol Hill have forgotten that terrorism in the age of WMD poses an existential threat to our free society. We’re glad Mr. Bush and his team are forcefully defending their entirely legal and necessary authority to wiretap enemies seeking to kill innocent Americans.[/i]

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Am I the only person here that is a true conservative when it comes to my privacy?

Why do I have to pay taxes to a government that can spy on me without a search warrant?

I would expect this from left wingnut communists and socialists but not from Americans that claim to conservative.

BB, JeffR, RJ…you guys are beyond pathetic.

If a democrat was in the WH you would be screaming from the rooftop along with me.[/quote]

Yes, this is a good point and quite humorous and/ or sad when you think about it. If a democrat were in office these same people would be outraged.

Boston,

Please, give it a rest. Anyway, the key words in your key excerpt…

Notice the word FOREIGN? That is quite possibly significant in this debate.

How about we hold off on the 6000 pages of pseudo-analysis by right wing thinkers who are looking for ways for this to be allowed by law.

We’ll see what is forthcoming during investigations in the new year. If it is all covered, then fine, but for issues such as this one, which are very important, somebody needs to dig into the facts.

It’s not enough for people to simply say, hey, it’s okay…

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
If a democrat was in the WH you would be screaming from the rooftop along with me.

Yes, this is a good point and quite humorous and/ or sad when you think about it. If a democrat were in office these same people would be outraged.[/quote]

Not so sadly, that is a theory that will go untested for quite a few years.

But to draw attention to the hypocrisy at hand - Why aren’t the ABBer’s crying for an investigation to get to the bottom of who leaked this story to the press? And you guys sit in judgement of an unproven hypocrisy that exists only on your minds?

That is rich.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Boston,

Please, give it a rest. Anyway, the key words in your key excerpt…

foreign intelligence information

Notice the word FOREIGN? That is quite possibly significant in this debate.

How about we hold off on the 6000 pages of pseudo-analysis by right wing thinkers who are looking for ways for this to be allowed by law.

We’ll see what is forthcoming during investigations in the new year. If it is all covered, then fine, but for issues such as this one, which are very important, somebody needs to dig into the facts.

It’s not enough for people to simply say, hey, it’s okay…[/quote]

Facts didn’t seem to mean a whole lot to you wrt the Plame outing. Selective fact finding, huh?

Disagree if you want - but you are cruising for a BB-style bruising by thumbing your nose like you do.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Boston,

Please, give it a rest. Anyway, the key words in your key excerpt…

foreign intelligence information

Notice the word FOREIGN? That is quite possibly significant in this debate.

How about we hold off on the 6000 pages of pseudo-analysis by right wing thinkers who are looking for ways for this to be allowed by law.

We’ll see what is forthcoming during investigations in the new year. If it is all covered, then fine, but for issues such as this one, which are very important, somebody needs to dig into the facts.

It’s not enough for people to simply say, hey, it’s okay…[/quote]

I’ve yet to see any good analysis that this is disallowed by law. The standing assumption seems to be that anything the adminstration does is de facto illegal and unconstitutional. I like how critics of the administration like to say supporters take a view of the administration with rose-colored glasses, but it’s increasingly obvious to me that a lot of the critics view anything the administration does through sh*t-colored glasses, with the presumption of illegality.

“The president ordered a cheese danish - that’s probably illegal and unconstitutional, and we should have an investigation unless he proves it wasn’t.”

Luckily, those folks aren’t in the majority – except of course in the newsrooms and within the ivory towers.

Statutory legality is a seemingly notty question in this case, depending on some specific facts, though there is no Constitutional issue. There might not even be an answer to the statutory question right now, if it’s an intersection of legislative and executive power. Congress hasn’t said anything yet. But it should be duly noted that the administration did follow requirements for legal review of executive orders by consulting with the NSA Legal Counsel and the U.S. Attorney General.

He also followed congressional oversight requirements by notifying the appropriate congressional committees in a timely manner. And it is customary for more sensitive activities to be briefed only to a limited number of senior oversight committee members to avoid leaks of classified national security information. Our current system of checks & balances does not require congressional oversight committees to approve intelligence activities in advance, only that they be notified of significant activities in a timely manner.

But I don’t recall anyone wanting to take a “wait and see” attitude in the beginning of the thread. I’ve conceded that the statutory question is open, and that there may be a larger separation-of-powers issue underlying the whole thing (which may or may not be resolved – see the underlying tension in Congress’ War Powers Act, which is still an issue low these many years later). It would be nice if the chicken littles who are constantly claiming fascism is falling would, every once and awhile, actually have to make some sort of case.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
If a democrat was in the WH you would be screaming from the rooftop along with me.

Yes, this is a good point and quite humorous and/ or sad when you think about it. If a democrat were in office these same people would be outraged.

Not so sadly, that is a theory that will go untested for quite a few years.

But to draw attention to the hypocrisy at hand - Why aren’t the ABBer’s crying for an investigation to get to the bottom of who leaked this story to the press? And you guys sit in judgement of an unproven hypocrisy that exists only on your minds?

That is rich.[/quote]

The fact that the NSA is spying worldwide on cell phones, satellite phone, fax machines, etc. is not knews.

That cover was blown by the press when Clinton was in office.

There is not leak. Use some logic before you regurgitate right wingnut talking points.

Come on…you are smarter than that!

Let me guess…you believe that the article about CIA torture gulags in eastern block contries was a security leak too. Even though the articles were vetted by the CIA before they were printed.

ROTFLMFAO!!!

[quote]vroom wrote:

How about we hold off on the 6000 pages of pseudo-analysis by right wing thinkers who are looking for ways for this to be allowed by law.

We’ll see what is forthcoming during investigations in the new year. If it is all covered, then fine, but for issues such as this one, which are very important, somebody needs to dig into the facts…[/quote]

Vroom, what exactly should all of us be doing on a discussion board where the topic is the legality of the surveillance?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
vroom wrote:
Boston,

Please, give it a rest. Anyway, the key words in your key excerpt…

foreign intelligence information

Notice the word FOREIGN? That is quite possibly significant in this debate.

How about we hold off on the 6000 pages of pseudo-analysis by right wing thinkers who are looking for ways for this to be allowed by law.

We’ll see what is forthcoming during investigations in the new year. If it is all covered, then fine, but for issues such as this one, which are very important, somebody needs to dig into the facts.

It’s not enough for people to simply say, hey, it’s okay…

Facts didn’t seem to mean a whole lot to you wrt the Plame outing. Selective fact finding, huh?

Disagree if you want - but you are cruising for a BB-style bruising by thumbing your nose like you do. [/quote]

How, may I ask is this actually a leak? A news publication came forth and told us something that concerns our freedom and social liberties, a secret our government should have let us in on quite some time ago.

Its a democracy, remember? The people are supposed to run the government. And what if it turns out Bush did do something illegal? You wouldnt want to know about that?

First, people arguing the President should be investigated for eating a cheese danish (assuming he wouldn’t choke to death on it) are obviously nutbars.

The fact is, this issue isn’t so easily dismissed.

Well, that is hardly surprising you spend all your time reading and posting material in support of your beloved leader, oh wait, that’s Kim Jong’s moniker isn’t it?

:stuck_out_tongue:

Thunder, discussion is great, posting 6000 lines of crap from esteemed sources is slightly overkill. Providing key excerpts and the link for the interested is more than enough for the level of scrutiny in these here parts.

Rainjack,

Are you continuing to pretend that a leak “against” the administration is the same thing as a leak “against” an individual by the administration?

There are significant differences in the issues involved between the two scenarios. However, that being said, I’ve already come out and said investigate away… why not?

I don’t think anybody would get overly uptight about it… though there may be some who will cry freedom of the press (which again is not the same as freedom of the administration to manipulate the press).

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Some legal background, courtesy of Mark Levin:

Some brief background: The Foreign Intelligence Security Act permits the government to monitor foreign communications, even if they are with U.S. citizens – 50 USC 1801, et seq. ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36.html ) A FISA warrant is only needed if the subject communications are wholly contained in the United States and involve a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

The reason the President probably had to sign an executive order is that the Justice Department office that processes FISA requests, the Office of Intelligence Policy and Review (OIPR), can take over 6 months to get a standard FISA request approved. It can become extremely bureaucratic, depending on who is handling the request. His executive order is not contrary to FISA if he believed, as he clearly did, that he needed to act quickly. The president has constitutional powers, too.

Mark Levin is the BIGGEST right wingnut hack and a winey twerpt too.

Give us all a break BB and go back to the Free Republic and stay.

[/quote]

Hey, BB is a true gentleman on this site! That was uncalled for.

Weren’t the laws to make such spying legal passed in 1978, by the Carter Administration? Every president since has made use of this, but Bush does it and it’s illegal?

This sounds like a bunch of desperate Democrats to me. It also shows their stupidity – they should have brought this out next October.

What talking point driven media outlet do you get your news from?

There are rules to be followed, and the issue is about going outside those rules to conduct the spying.

If you can’t even follow along with the basics, how is anybody supposed to have an intelligent conversation… oh wait, my bad. Never mind.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack,

Are you continuing to pretend that a leak “against” the administration is the same thing as a leak “against” an individual by the administration?[/quote]

Silly me - I’m calling a security leak a security leak. To make one less than the other just shows the extent to which the ABB crowd will go to justify their hypocrisy

When the President has rights enumerated to him under Article 2 of the Constitution wrt prosecuting a war against an enemy that has declared war on the U.S., and Congress has voted to allow him to go to war - tell me what crime he is committing by acting the the damn CIC? I invite all of you poor violated souls to take a look at FDR, or Lincoln, if you want an example of a President that infringes on civil rights during wartime.

The ignorance of the ABBer’s is hilarious when juxtaposed against their supposed concern for their ‘rights’.

So, you really think that the president and his cronies using a security leak to silence or punish someone speaking out against the administration is the same as one or more individuals speaking out in what they apparently believe is the administration overstepping legal bounds?

You honestly can’t see any difference? I think you doth protest too much.

While the legal ramifications may be the same for the leakees, the abuse of authority that one represents adds an entire additional level of malfeasance to the issue.

And dammit, no, I don’t have proof, but we are just talking about a comparison of two scenarios.

[quote]vroom wrote:
So, you really think that the president and his cronies using a security leak to silence or punish someone speaking out against the administration is the same as one or more individuals speaking out in what they apparently believe is the administration overstepping legal bounds?[/quote]

Oddly enough - you have absolutely no proof that what you accuse has even occured. I’m thinking that Fitzgerald would have handed down an indictment by now if there was even enough evidence to warrant one.

SO what was your argument again? Oh yeah - it was one based soley on your own opinion. Sorry. I don’t entertain non-citizen partisan ramblings as much more than comic relief.

I don’t belive Plame was outed by the administration. And as of this posting - evidently Fitzgerald agrees with me.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Why don’t you explain how this violates the 4th Amendment? While you’re at it, why don’t you point me to the right of privacy in the Constitution, hmm?[/quote]

the 4th amendment implies the right to privacy…

for example: you have the right to privacy in you home “but upon probable cause”…

the government does not have the right to spy on you in your own house “but upon probable cause”…

in this sense, you have the right to privacy.

That was a cheap cop-out. Nice going from a discussion of principles into partisan hackery… oh well.

I try not to get involved in political posts, this site is for weight trining, nutrition, and general well being. but being the pole smoking, tree hugging “guns kill people” liberal pussies that most of you seem to be be let me say one thing. SO WHAT !!! the govt.'s taping you so fucking what go ahead if that helps me to get on an airline safely. SO WHAT
I can go to my fins games and not worry about the stadium blowing up from some rag-head(yeah i said it.) SO FFFFFFFFFF ing what. what are they really gonna find out about you. you got 2 btls of test in your closet and your old ladys got a rabbit in her dresser so what oh wait big brothers watching, he might see me streak across the kitchen when my kids aren’t home my winky just a swinging, oh god stop tapping my phones i might talk about what santa claus is bringing me. come on people !!!

Now I know im gonna get lambasted over this and im already gonna apologize but thats the way I just feel. sorry again.