Bush Lets US Spy On Callers Without Courts

[quote]vroom wrote:
Oddly enough - you have absolutely no proof that what you accuse has even occured. I’m thinking that Fitzgerald would have handed down an indictment by now if there was even enough evidence to warrant one.

That was a cheap cop-out. Nice going from a discussion of principles into partisan hackery… oh well.[/quote]

How is the truth a cop out? How is using the special prosecuter as an example partisan hackery?

Sometimes I think you just post stuff like this to egg on a battle.

But to placate you - I don’t see a breach of principles wrt the Plame outing. I am waiting for something more than the avid cheerleading of the ABB crowd as proof that the Bush Admin lacks principles in the Plame case.

Sorry to disappoint - but you have nothing but you opinion to stand on. But discss away if it will quench your thirst to incriminate Bush.

Anyone notice the obvious comparison to the KGB, The Chinese, and everyone else that spies on their own citizens because the government in power says they have the authority and it is for the protection of the people. Bush is rapidly turning the Presidency into a dictatorship. Putin is probably rolling on the floor laughing.

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
Anyone notice the obvious comparison to the KGB, The Chinese, and everyone else that spies on their own citizens because the government in power says they have the authority and it is for the protection of the people. Bush is rapidly turning the Presidency into a dictatorship. Putin is probably rolling on the floor laughing.[/quote]

Bullshit. That is total absurdity. Why? Because you are encouraged to post balthering such as this since it is an exercise of your right to free speech.

You can go to the church of your choice on Sunday - or not - without fear of prosecution because you have the freedom of religon.

In most parts of the country, you can go to the gun store and purchase a gun without fear of having it confiscated because you have the right to bear arms.

If you are arrested, you have the right to avoid self incrimination.

Let’s see you try any of those things in Red China. Hell - go to China and try to google “freedom” on one of their computers.

What you might have a problem doing here in the U.S. is engaging in an international phone call with a member of Al Qaeda, or one of its sympathizers.

But I don’t expect folks as prone to melodrama as the ABB/pro-terrorist crowd to really pay common sense much attention. I mean, honestly - where is the over-the-top theatrics in that?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
RoadWarrior wrote:
Anyone notice the obvious comparison to the KGB, The Chinese, and everyone else that spies on their own citizens because the government in power says they have the authority and it is for the protection of the people. Bush is rapidly turning the Presidency into a dictatorship. Putin is probably rolling on the floor laughing.

Bullshit. That is total absurdity. Why? Because you are encouraged to post balthering such as this since it is an exercise of your right to free speech.

You can go to the church of your choice on Sunday - or not - without fear of prosecution because you have the freedom of religon.

In most parts of the country, you can go to the gun store and purchase a gun without fear of having it confiscated because you have the right to bear arms.

If you are arrested, you have the right to avoid self incrimination.

Let’s see you try any of those things in Red China. Hell - go to China and try to google “freedom” on one of their computers.

What you might have a problem doing here in the U.S. is engaging in an international phone call with a member of Al Qaeda, or one of its sympathizers.

But I don’t expect folks as prone to melodrama as the ABB/pro-terrorist crowd to really pay common sense much attention. I mean, honestly - where is the over-the-top theatrics in that?[/quote]

Have you ever been to China? I spent 3 1/2 years there. Your argument sounds typical of blathering of American propaganda. As far how hard it is to tap a call:

Andrea Mitchell
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:46 p.m. ET Dec. 20, 2005

WASHINGTON - In Yemen in November 2002, a U.S. spy satellite picked up a cell phone call from a passenger in the front seat of a car on a remote road. The phone number triggered a National Security Agency (NSA) computer in Fort Meade, Md. The man’s voice didn?t match any known terrorist.

But then another man was heard, talking from the back seat. The NSA quickly identified him as Abu Ali al-Harithi ? wanted for the bombing of the USS Cole two years earlier. The CIA ordered a missile strike from an unmanned predator aircraft. Everyone in the car was killed.

Yes in this case he was a terrorist (or so claimed).

But spying on Americans is spying on Americans. Next time it will be because the person is a known drug dealer and after that because they didn’t agree with the administration (after "if you disagree with me, YOU ARE for terrorism).

quote mcnasty13 wrote:
“I try not to get involved in political posts”

Thanks for making an exception.

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:

But spying on Americans is spying on Americans. Next time it will be because the person is a known drug dealer and after that because they didn’t agree with the administration (after "if you disagree with me, YOU ARE for terrorism).

[/quote]

Damn, I can’t believe it took this long for the slippery-slope people to appear.

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work. [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and love of the Fatherland. [Message, signed Hitler, painted on walls of concentration camps; Life, August 21, 1939]

Woman’s world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men. [Adolph Hitler, quoted in Lucy Komisar, The New Feminism]

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933]

I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it. [Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pp. 239-40]

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna’s destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

…the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party… was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes! [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement]

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

I had so often sung ‘Deutschland u:ber Alles’ and shouted ‘Heil’ at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger’s time achieved a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its success. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace smiled on His ungrateful children. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World War I]

The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the ‘image’ of God. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth…Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10, echoing the Cultural Warfare rhetoric of the Religious Right]

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all efficacy. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

…the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing Martin Luther’s teachings]

Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them forward. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single struggle to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the young movement and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can move mountains. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

Of course, even the general designation ‘religious’ includes various basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being, etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be for the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes a breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious views. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created? [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes, hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and order. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

It doesn’t dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? …Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas… it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], the most devout Protestant could sit beside the most devout Catholic, without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them mutually to respect and esteem one another. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

For this, to be sure, from the child’s primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’ [Adolf Hitler’s prayer, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 Chapter 13]

The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life [Adolph Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933]

I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker. [Adolf Hitler, Speech, 15 March 1936, Munich, Germany.]

Today Christians … stand at the head of [this country]… I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity … We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past … (few) years. [The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

Atheist Hall Converted
Berlin Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers

Wireless to the New York Times.

BERLIN, May 13. - In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership.

The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members … [New York Times, May 14, 1993, page 2, on Hitler’s outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]

[quote]But to placate you - I don’t see a breach of principles wrt the Plame outing. I am waiting for something more than the avid cheerleading of the ABB crowd as proof that the Bush Admin lacks principles in the Plame case.

Sorry to disappoint - but you have nothing but you opinion to stand on. But discss away if it will quench your thirst to incriminate Bush.[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about?

I wasn’t trying to argue to facts of the Plame case but the principle that it appears to represent. It would be really nice if you would allow a hypothetical discussion of principles to occur every now and then.

It has nothing to do with incriminating Bush to determine the principles that WOULD be involved if it were fact, without trying to state it is fact.

Hell, from time to time it (considering a situation) might even lead to interesting topics… if you can get past the partisan hackery and allow such a discussion to occur.

You don’t have to suggest you agree that something has happened in order to discuss what it means if that thing has happened.

Interesting:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0512210324dec21,1,3760766.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

The FISA court is the “secret court” thet decides “in secret” decisions like these concerning “secret investigations”. His resignation has caused them to be not so “secret” anymore.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Weren’t the laws to make such spying legal passed in 1978, by the Carter Administration? Every president since has made use of this, but Bush does it and it’s illegal?

What talking point driven media outlet do you get your news from?

There are rules to be followed, and the issue is about going outside those rules to conduct the spying.

If you can’t even follow along with the basics, how is anybody supposed to have an intelligent conversation… oh wait, my bad. Never mind.[/quote]

WHAT are you talking about? If a law was passed by Congress, giving Bush the authority to do as he did, how is what he did ‘going outside those rules’?

Isn’t that what this discussion is about? How is that not ‘following the basics’?

No wonder RJ just rips the living shit out of you whenever you post.

Bush is going to look like such a goober if he ups and stops the program now. He therefore, HAS to continue it. Although he may emphasise that it would be used sparingly his political power is reduced no matter what he does.

On a completely different thought , I bet we have some people that majored in political science in college in this section of the forum. I wonder if we have ever had a president that was so bushlike :

  • thatwas thought to have made bad decicions while in office on a major scale (iraq, now this) during their tenure

  • a " conservative " even though the definition of that has changed dramatically

  • not a guy that pulls together coalitions with foreign powers , not a effective people guy

[quote]mcnasty13 wrote:
I try not to get involved in political posts, this site is for weight trining, nutrition, and general well being. but being the pole smoking, tree hugging “guns kill people” liberal pussies that most of you seem to be be let me say one thing. SO WHAT !!! the govt.'s taping you so fucking what go ahead if that helps me to get on an airline safely. SO WHAT
I can go to my fins games and not worry about the stadium blowing up from some rag-head(yeah i said it.) SO FFFFFFFFFF ing what. what are they really gonna find out about you. you got 2 btls of test in your closet and your old ladys got a rabbit in her dresser so what oh wait big brothers watching, he might see me streak across the kitchen when my kids aren’t home my winky just a swinging, oh god stop tapping my phones i might talk about what santa claus is bringing me. come on people !!!

Now I know im gonna get lambasted over this and im already gonna apologize but thats the way I just feel. sorry again.
[/quote]

This is one of the best goddamn posts I’ve ever read! You are right – if you are dead, you can’t make any incrimating phone calls. Dammit, Bush is trying to protect us from vermin – and we’re bitching about spying and all this other technicality crap. The man is standing up to terror, he’s got to face the goddamn traitors in the Congress, he’s got the MSM left-wing traitors on him, and here we bitch.

mcnasty13, thank you for saying what needed said.

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:

How, may I ask is this actually a leak? A news publication came forth and told us something that concerns our freedom and social liberties, a secret our government should have let us in on quite some time ago.
[/quote]

Leaking classified information about how we spy on enemies in a time of war is a leak. We should not hear about this until years after the war is over.

[quote]
Its a democracy, remember? The people are supposed to run the government. And what if it turns out Bush did do something illegal? You wouldnt want to know about that?[/quote]

Democracy has nothing to do with spying on our enemies and keeping information classified.

Bush has apparantly done nothing illegal.

What if Bush raped a bus load of nuns?
He should prove he didn’t, until then he is guilty in your mind.

[quote]vroom wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?[/quote]

You said you wanted a discussion about principles - I gave you my opinion - based on the facts as we know them today.

Well I wondered how long it would take for the old vroom to make a come back…and it didn’t take very long. I find it hilarious that the only way you can be right on this is in a world of ‘hypotheticals’. I deal in the real world. Discussions based on “what if’s” and “play like’s” are for people that can’t make their case in the real world. Funny - but I swear we’ve had this exact same exchange on more than just a couple of occasions.

[quote]It has nothing to do with incriminating Bush to determine the principles that WOULD be involved if it were fact, without trying to state it is fact.

Hell, from time to time it (considering a situation) might even lead to interesting topics… if you can get past the partisan hackery and allow such a discussion to occur.

You don’t have to suggest you agree that something has happened in order to discuss what it means if that thing has happened.[/quote]

And you have tha audacity to ask me what the hell I am saying? I fear you have been sitting under your magical tree again without proper protection against the cold.

Holy Cow.

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:

  • not a guy that pulls together coalitions with foreign powers , not a effective people guy[/quote]

This is an unfair and inaccurate criticism. When you realize Russia, France and Germany had been cheating wildly with the Oil for Food program you see why they have opposed us on the invasion of Iraq.

No amount of diplomacy would have brought them around.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:

  • not a guy that pulls together coalitions with foreign powers , not a effective people guy

This is an unfair and inaccurate criticism. When you realize Russia, France and Germany had been cheating wildly with the Oil for Food program you see why they have opposed us on the invasion of Iraq.

No amount of diplomacy would have brought them around.
[/quote]

Good point! What should we do in an evil world filled with immoral assholes that want to screw us or kill us? “Well, let’s follow the rules and play like good boys now.” Good way to wind up with another 9/11.

I for one like it if Bush stretched this law to find and root out these vermin. I don’t know if he did, but if I and my family wake up tomorrow because of that, then God bless him.

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
[a bunch of Nazi quotes][/quote]

Wow. I suppose if Hitler said it, it must be true, right?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Interesting:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0512210324dec21,1,3760766.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

U.S. District Judge James Robertson, one of 11 members of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, sent a letter to Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. late Monday notifying him of his resignation

The FISA court is the “secret court” thet decides “in secret” decisions like these concerning “secret investigations”. His resignation has caused them to be not so “secret” anymore.[/quote]

Yep. And that’s all according to Congress’ statutory scheme – and, of course, it’s Constitutional authority to set up all the inferior courts authorized under Article III.

Interesting piece in the Chicago Tribune today by former Associate Attorney General John Schmidt, who served under Clinton from 1994-1997. In it, he lays out the argument for inherent executive Constitutional power under Article II to authorize these sorts of warrantless searches of identified groups:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512210142dec21,0,3553632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed

President had legal authority to OK taps

By John Schmidt
Published December 21, 2005

President Bush’s post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.

In the Supreme Court’s 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president’s authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that “All the … courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence … We take for granted that the president does have that authority.”

The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an “agent of a foreign power,” which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law’s procedures.

But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, “FISA could not encroach on the president’s constitutional power.”

Every president since FISA’s passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act’s terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that “the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes.”

FISA contains a provision making it illegal to “engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute.” The term “electronic surveillance” is defined to exclude interception outside the U.S., as done by the NSA, unless there is interception of a communication “sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person” (a U.S. citizen or permanent resident) and the communication is intercepted by “intentionally targeting that United States person.” The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. If the surveillance is based upon other kinds of evidence, it would fall outside what a FISA court could authorize and also outside the act’s prohibition on electronic surveillance.

The administration has offered the further defense that FISA’s reference to surveillance “authorized by statute” is satisfied by congressional passage of the post-Sept. 11 resolution giving the president authority to “use all necessary and appropriate force” to prevent those responsible for Sept. 11 from carrying out further attacks. The administration argues that obtaining intelligence is a necessary and expected component of any military or other use of force to prevent enemy action.

But even if the NSA activity is “electronic surveillance” and the Sept. 11 resolution is not “statutory authorization” within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, “encroach upon the president’s constitutional power.”

FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment.

Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose.

But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again.


John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States. He is now a partner in the Chicago-based law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw.

[quote]WHAT are you talking about? If a law was passed by Congress, giving Bush the authority to do as he did, how is what he did ‘going outside those rules’?

Isn’t that what this discussion is about? How is that not ‘following the basics’? [/quote]

Well, you are getting closer to the subject anyway. So, what law was passed that gave the President the ability to spy on US citizens on US soil without need for a warrant?

Perhaps you could enlighten the world as to when the US officially became a police state?