Bruce Lee Was the Best Eva!

Training
61

[quote]vineshway wrote:
Because I know I have a long way to go, I may not look like it but I have taken down boxers, kickboxers, judo guys without too much of an effort.

Of course I have been knocked out by boxers and MMA guys too, at the end of the day it depends who you are fighting.

But I believe boxing, kickboxing can be explored in a year, MMA in 3, I been into traditional stuff much longer and its still a long way to go.[/quote]

This whole statement is crazy/stupid. Are you claiming you just roll into a bunch of different gyms or dojos, and start whupping ass. Do you have any fights, “Boxers and MMA guys” says to me you’ve been knocked out at least four times.
Do you expect me to believe you’re some sort of wandering ronin, just walking the earth challenging people to fights?

The biggest thing I think you’re missing is that the quality of the athlete matters more than the art. Joe Lewis (Correct me if I’m wrong Sentoguy) didn’t train grappling much. I think what I train is a superior fighting art. I still think he would have kicked my head off my shoulders in my prime. There’s guys who win matches against opponents who have years of training, with nothing but athleticism and a couple years of high school wrestling. So the fact that you claim to have “taken down” plenty of boxers, as well as having been knocked out by them, doesn’t mean crap unless they were good boxers.
If I go outside a McDojo and tackle a soccer mom on her third lesson and beat the crap out of her, does that mean Karate sucks?

Edit: I forgot but Sentoguy covered it above. Your statement about needing a year for boxing etc… Incredibly ignorant and arrogant. It’s like you’ve gone down a checklist of Traditional Martial Art douche bag sayings.

  1. Most gyms don’t teach the “real art” mine does.
  2. My art is much more complex, others are just a quick fix.
  3. Todays martial artists are nothing compared to the ancient masters…
    I’ll believe in these guys when they start appearing and fighting people who aren’t their students. Its sad watching videos of dudes tearing it up on a bunch of guys who they trained.
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[quote]No-Gi wrote:

The biggest thing I think you’re missing is that the quality of the athlete matters more than the art. Joe Lewis (Correct me if I’m wrong Sentoguy) didn’t train grappling much. I think what I train is a superior fighting art. I still think he would have kicked my head off my shoulders in my prime.
[/quote]

Well…actually Lewis originally came from a wrestling background. He also was into olympic lifting prior to getting into Karate/striking arts.

But your point about the quality of the athlete is absolutely true. A great example of this would be Frank Shamrock. Like him or dislike him, you’ve still gotta respect the fact that the guy won his first world championship (King of Pancrase) after only about 3 years of training. He was fighting some guys who had 20+ years of experience and still beat them.

GSP is another great example. Incredible athlete, whooped on Matt Serra (even in the Jiu-Jitsu aspect of the fight) despite Serra having trained in BJJ for considerably longer. Or, his fight against Koscheck (former 3 time division 1 wrestling champion) in which he out wrestled Koscheck.

[quote]
Edit: I forgot but Sentoguy covered it above. Your statement about needing a year for boxing etc… Incredibly ignorant and arrogant. It’s like you’ve gone down a checklist of Traditional Martial Art douche bag sayings.

  1. Most gyms don’t teach the “real art” mine does.
  2. My art is much more complex, others are just a quick fix.
  3. Todays martial artists are nothing compared to the ancient masters…
    I’ll believe in these guys when they start appearing and fighting people who aren’t their students. Its sad watching videos of dudes tearing it up on a bunch of guys who they trained.[/quote]

Yeah, I noticed that too.

63

Really, no one teaches the real art, you have to figure it out yourself over time.

its not about complex or not, a boxer is just not trained to kill (exception: George Foreman) whereas people who have trained in the killing arts have.

So yeah, Boxers can beat up baguazhang guys in a boxing fight but if its a no rule, no holding back thing going on, the results can be different.

And I don’t particularly represent a single art here so I am not defending a particular gym ideal or dojo ideal, I am just speaking from my experience (not more than 4 years)

I do a fairbit of weight training and train in more modern ways myself because I don’t believe in lagging somewhere, its just that I personally believe in internal arts mechanics, primarily the ones revolving around chin na and what could be the tearing/clawing skills I am trying to learn them on my own so not many comments and I just don’t see a kickboxer react in any other way than getting knocked out after getting a ligament torn or his flesh clawed through.

Of course I am not saying you guys are wrong but simply that you underestimate the traditional systems

64

[quote]vineshway wrote:
Really, no one teaches the real art, you have to figure it out yourself over time. [/quote]

Let me get this straight, you’re making it up…? WTF? How do you no nobody is teaching the real art? If nobody is teaching it, what do you compare the “fakes” with in order to prove they’re not real?

This whole trained to kill thing is silly. I don’t see any reports(not saying there are none, just they aren’t common) of martial artists killing their attackers. Honestly I would be willing to bet the vast majority of killing done without weapons are someone getting beat up with non lethal strikes, then finished off with stomps, kicks, choking, or a continuation of the beating.

If this is supposed to be about the nut grabbing and biting crap, you can learn to do that in short order.

You never really answered my previous question of what you’re doing wandering around India jumping Boxers, Mixed Martial Artists, Judoka etc… I find your claims of experience especially in your 4 years of training are a little hard to believe.

Let me throw a wild guess out there, these are the sorts of skills that are so dangerous and effective that you can’t use them on a person… You can never seriously know if crap like this works. Till you go to do it on someone and nothing happens.

[quote]
Of course I am not saying you guys are wrong but simply that you underestimate the traditional systems[/quote]

I don’t underestimate traditional systems. I think they have value in personal development and in fighting style. Muay Thai is a “Traditional system”, boxing is older than Judo…Wrestling is about as old as it gets. I think you are underestimating the importance of what Judo calls “Randori” or live sparring. I really know that when I do my moves, they work. This is because I do them on people who are resisting, trained, athletic, aggressive guys, who want to win. If a move works on them…then it works.

These links have guys doing chi knock outs…

Not saying these vids are what you’re advocating, just good for a laugh

65

[quote]vineshway wrote:
its not about complex or not, a boxer is just not trained to kill (exception: George Foreman) whereas people who have trained in the killing arts have.
[/quote]

Killing arts? Are you aware that the military teaches it’s soldiers boxing and BJJ?

My instructor trains the Green Berets and guess what he teaches them? Kickboxing, Jiu-Jitsu, weapons skills (which he has developed from Arnis, Ninjutsu, Kali, etc…), and yes also more “street effective” tactics like biting, body handles, eye attacks, and nerve attacks. So far, the Soldiers that he has trained (as well as the numerous law enforcement officers, who also sometimes must use their skills in a lethal manner) have seemed to do just fine.

That is straight up laughable. The baguazhang guy would not be able to get in close enough to a good boxer to land a punch without getting KO’d. Boxers train in real time against real fully resisting opponents. They develop extremely high levels of skill when it comes to distance control, timing, accuracy, power and physical conditioning.

Are you saying that you have not more than 4 years of trying to teach yourself martial arts? If so, then I strongly suggest finding a good school to train at. Unless you are an exceptional athlete and have some sort of strong base to work with, then you are never going to reach anywhere near your potential.

Once again, the internal arts do have some interesting/useful principles (such as their mechanics), but you are kidding yourself if you think that you are going to be “clawing through people’s flesh” or tearing ligaments/muscles from their body (both of which I have seen some people claim to train in) without having the other skills/attributes to effectively utilize such tactics.

If you were an excellent wrestler and could take someone to the ground and maintain a superior position and then chose to claw, gauge, etc… then that would be one thing.

But without the requisite skills to achieve a positional advantage that would allow you to use them, then you’re just giving yourself a false sense of security.

You are also kidding yourself that a kickboxer is just going to stand there and let you try to tear a ligament or claw through their flesh. They’re going to be pounding your head in while you try to do that. You’d have to have unbelievable grip strength to be able to do something like that (or have long extremely hard sharpened nails) with enough speed to be able to pull it off against a kickboxer.

I’m not saying that such skills can’t be useful in a self defense situation. But if you are talking about fighting a trained fighter, then you’re in trouble.

[quote]
Of course I am not saying you guys are wrong but simply that you underestimate the traditional systems[/quote]

No, we don’t underestimate the traditional systems. You simply don’t seem to understand the nature of combat (and if you are trying to train yourself, then it’s pretty clear why) and don’t understand that the more modern arts focus on effectiveness. That is why sport fighters use what they use.

66

I meant I have been training for 4 years, primarily in jujutsu, kempo and kickboxing. attended a few seminars on traditional chinese arts.

And yes, tiger claw, bagua and eagle claw cover pretty good footwork, which is why the horse stance, to not lose balance while stepping.

And as you said, your military instructor also teaches pressure point striking, jujutsu (locks?).

So that means the traditional arts have their fair bit of use too, I mean in a military situation too, boxing can help weaken the opponent unless you rabit punch but it doesnt cover instantly fatal techniques (more so of budo taijutsu if its military combat), refer to Krav Maga as a killing military art. Of course your instructor is teaching a pretty awesome set of skills. kudos to him.

I have defeated national level boxers and its not really a matter of skill set as much but as someone mentioned in the thread of frank mir on brock lesnar, it is who optimizes his advantage at first. Can the boxer get his knockout punch, can the judo guy get his takedown, you get my point? You guys have increased my faith in MMA and made me eager to learn it :D.

As for tearing, I can tear muscles myself (not as well as my instructor) but I can do it, its not that difficult. provided you got the angle, the motion and timing correct, its easy.

67

[quote]vineshway wrote:
I have defeated national level boxers
[/quote]

I’m not going to call BS, but I will say that I do not believe you. First of all you still haven’t described the circumstances under which you’re fighting apparently multiple national level boxers. Second this is the internet, where everyone is a stud. So you will have to excuse my skepticism.
In fact this post has just passed my “Internet Suspension of Disbelief” quota, so sadly I’m done.
It was fun at first, with you declaring percentages of Bruce Lee speed we could acquire with proper elbow snaps(60% it turns out, who’d have thought?). You declared that non-war martial arts had started in the 20th century. That was great… Good times…
The blatant contradictions in your posts tickled my heart…

then

[quote]I do what you can call traditional jujutsu but I am sure MMA guys will whoop my ass.
[/quote]
When you claimed that “exploring” boxing would take one year, pissing on arts that people take a lifetime to master. Oh I wish FightingIrish had been here. Sentoguys rage, though less Epic, still had me laughing out loud.
As your posts descended into blatant disconnects with reality, like not realizing that a choke is a killing technique. Or considering that perhaps breaking an arm could be as effective…dare I say more effective, than ruthlessly shredding the muscles off it with your tiger claw technique.
Your confusing references to whether you were self taught, or were learning at a school. The way you slipped hard questions like the punches of those national level boxers you defeated. I’ll miss it all Vineshway. But thanks for the memories.

68

whatever I don’t answer I admit I am wrong :slight_smile:

Yes, chokes are killing but are you sure a choke cannot be countered?

breaking an arm is effective, never said it aint, its all a matter who gets to break the arm first or claw the arm first :smiley:

And if you must know, the bouts were more like these bouts we have in Bombay where a person from any martial art can enter, my apologies but I cannot give out further details about these.

At the end of the day its also that effective is a perception based on desired result.

And I am not dissing MMA or Boxing, I am just trying to discuss whether something not grown with the intent of executing can execute just as well?

69

. . . wow. Srsly?

I’m sure there is a long, deep and thoughtful response to the recent deluge of hardcore, battle-tested, hard mufugus, with their deep experience, sense of martial pride, and killing skill, but God help me if I can think of it.

The ONLY way to TRULY, SRSLY KNOW if your stuff can kill is to KILL EVERYONE. Otherwise, every application, every contest, every damned thing is a “what if X had Y’d” scenario. Everything else is BS.

Fighting is cock-waving. You kill someone by making sure you’re playing a different game than them, with different rules, different mindset, and stronger tools. Otherwise, you are NOT the hardcore, battle-tested, hard mufuga you would hold yourself up to be.

Last time I checked, this was T-Nation; the best place on the internet to completely disregard the bullshit and use the collected experience of our members, those who compete in bodybuilding, power lifting, strong man, and (more pertinently) combat sports, to improve ourselves. It’s just a bit disheartening to see the theory-is-stronger-than-training crowd being so vocal in it’s protests of reality.

IF one wants to get good at martial arts, there are FEW absolute ways to do so:

  1. Train with those better than you.

  2. Train with a regular test of skills and attributes (to be read as randori/jiyu kumite/free-sparing).

  3. Train with intensity.

  4. Train with the goal of consistently improving attributes (strength & power, cardiovascular fitness, etc)

  5. Train with a regular test of skills and attributes (to be read as randori/jiyu kumite/free-sparing).

And remember - if you can’t use a technique (or a movement so similar as to be mistaken for such) in a high-stress scenario, it most likely won’t work. Anyone that says otherwise is selling a LARP kit, and not “teh r33lZ.”

Spar hard, train hard, spar harder.

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[quote]vineshway wrote:
I meant I have been training for 4 years, primarily in jujutsu, kempo and kickboxing. attended a few seminars on traditional chinese arts.
[/quote]

Well that’s good to hear at least.

Tiger claw, bagua and eagle claw might cover footwork, but it’s no where near the caliber of arts like kickboxing/boxing. And you can’t learn how to quickly, and effectively move in any direction (mobility) from performing static postures (like horse stance training).

Well…striking pressure points is one possible way to utilize them as targets, but not the only way. And Jiu-jitsu, while originally a “traditional” art is also a huge part of MMA.

Boxing can absolutely kill instantly, like I said you just have to hit the right targets hard enough. Krav Maga is from my experience very simple and direct (good things), but also lacks the true skill development to allow it’s practitioners to hang with highly trained opponents (fighters).

Well, in order to optimize one’s advantage though (while negating your opponent’s advantages) takes quite a bit of skill.

How many muscles have you torn yourself (in real combat or in training)? Also are you talking about tearing them through the use of joint locks (very possible), or tiger claw type movements where you grab hold of the muscle and pull it off the bone (nonsense)?

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this notion of “you have to KILL, to see if your KILLING technique works” is so boggus. when my instructor applies a neck break on me from ba-gua or tai-chi, i dont need for him to actually go forth and break it so i can realize this “kill” technique really works, i know it works, their is no dont in my mind i’m screwed! you just have to beleive in your teacher. granted their are alot of bullshitters out there hiding behind the “i kill” thought process. you just have to beleive your source and hope its a valid one if your going to put your life on the line beleiving what your instrcutor is telling you and showing you!

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[quote]ultrafit wrote:
this notion of “you have to KILL, to see if your KILLING technique works” is so boggus. when my instructor applies a neck break on me from ba-gua or tai-chi, i dont need for him to actually go forth and break it so i can realize this “kill” technique really works, i know it works, their is no dont in my mind i’m screwed! you just have to beleive in your teacher. granted their are alot of bullshitters out there hiding behind the “i kill” thought process. you just have to beleive your source and hope its a valid one if your going to put your life on the line beleiving what your instrcutor is telling you and showing you!
[/quote]

You are right, techniques like neck breaks don’t have to actually be utilized to break a person’s neck to know that they could. But, such techniques DO have to be trained in real time against a fully resisting opponent to know that you can actually pull them off.

Anyone can learn how to properly execute a neck break/neck cranking technique that could potentially do serious harm to someone in a matter of minutes if they are doing it on a completely accomidating partner. But it takes quite a long time to be able to consistently do it against a fully resisting (and skilled) opponent.

Honestly I think that unless your instructor is actually putting you in situations where you are battle testing your techniques on a regular basis, then you should find a different instructor. You need to KNOW, not hope, that what you are learning is valid and not only that, but that you are capable of actually pulling it off under pressure.

That’s the problem with a lot of people who focus on “killing” techniques, their techniques might work in theory, but because they don’t actually have enough experience to be able to pull them off, they often fail when the shit hits the fan.

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cant agree with you more sentoguy.

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Yo, I’m here. Please, no applause, just throw money. BL was the man, there’s no doubt. But why start another thread on here. Gets old. Let the guy rest in peace. That poor family has been thru alot! Brandon was a great actor too btw. Would had made it big time for sure. The Crow was badass. Sad.

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Relatively speaking,you can count with one hand the number of people who know what “jeet kune do” is. Compared to someone like Jigoro Kano,who created a martial art which blossomed into an olympic sport,Lee is a small figure. He was a hard ass in movies,so was Emilio Estevez in some movie.

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I don’t believe Lee was the greatest fighter of all time, great… top tier…

What makes me a fan of Lee was the man he was not how many he could beat up…

His way of thinking was to be admired and emulated…

I do believe that in the arena of the mind Lee was second to no one…

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[quote]Alffi wrote:
Relatively speaking,you can count with one hand the number of people who know what “jeet kune do” is. Compared to someone like Jigoro Kano,who created a martial art which blossomed into an olympic sport,Lee is a small figure. He was a hard ass in movies,so was Emilio Estevez in some movie.[/quote]

Perhaps, but relatively speaking you can count with one hand the number of people who know who Jigoro Kano was, yet just about everyone knows who Bruce Lee was.

You also clearly haven’t read the rest of this thread, nor do you know what you are talking about if you are comparing Lee’s combative skills with that of Emilio Estevez.

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[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Alffi wrote:
Relatively speaking,you can count with one hand the number of people who know what “jeet kune do” is. Compared to someone like Jigoro Kano,who created a martial art which blossomed into an olympic sport,Lee is a small figure. He was a hard ass in movies,so was Emilio Estevez in some movie.

Perhaps, but relatively speaking you can count with one hand the number of people who know who Jigoro Kano was, yet just about everyone knows who Bruce Lee was.

You also clearly haven’t read the rest of this thread, nor do you know what you are talking about if you are comparing Lee’s combative skills with that of Emilio Estevez.[/quote]

I know I’m exaggerating a bit for laughs but I think a lot of people totally shut down their reason when they hear the name “Bruce Lee”. I don’t understand it,but I guess people need a mythical hero to worship.

As for his philosophical wisdom for example; he was quoted as saying obvious stuff which can be summarized as “be tough”, “work hard” etc. Nothing very novel there.

It’s true not a lot of people know who Jigoro Kano was but just about everybody in the world has a concept of the word “judo”.

79

[quote]Alffi wrote:
As for his philosophical wisdom for example; he was quoted as saying obvious stuff which can be summarized as “be tough”, “work hard” etc. Nothing very novel there.
[/quote]

obvious?

80

Holy cow this thread is a train wreck. I had a couple things I wanted to respond to but after reading the whole thing I forgot them.

Posted this in another thread. THE ONLY REASON I am posting it here is for the talk with Dan Inosanto at the very end where he mentions having seen Bruce Lee in competition.

I freely admit to not knowing what he’s talking about, but I’ll take his word to having seen Bruce in comp. Dan isn’t the type to BS people and has more experience in his little finger than I do in my whole body.