[quote]nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
I wish Bruce Lee was still alive to compete in MMA so he could get his ass handed to him on live TV.
If he was alive today, he would be 67 years old or do you mean you wish he were alive today but as a 32 year old in his prime? Please, be clear when you’re posting nonsense. Thanks.
[/quote]
So what? Randy Couture is 84 years old and still kicking ass.
Sed26 I really don’t see what is so hard to believe about the feats you put up.
Lee was a generous in boots 5’8, damn near all muscle and trained ALL Day Every day and willing to take the latest and greatest supplements. Many of his strength feats are bodyweight related minus the hold a bar 125 lbs straight out, and 1 inch punch which has a lot to do with center of gravity and willingness of the other person to fall.
After all this guy was known to attach electrical muscle stimulators while he did little things like type. He made a living doing crazy things. As far as the 2 finger pushups, those are on video, the one inch punch is also, and a select few other stunts.
I love the Gracie bandwagoners, despite the fact that. Theres always a different style of fight winning championships. Some even rule until they come up against a new style. True fans of fighting should know the key’s to a fight as with any sport is matchups, preparation and conditioning. You can’t really predict what Bruce Lee would do if he was alive, his style of fighting was to learn all styles.
Bruce Lee would not fight if he were alive (and successful) today.
People quit fighting to make movies, not the other way around.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Racarnus wrote:
The reason Bruce wasn’t alive during the “era of MMA” as you put it, is because MMA today is the direct consequence of his work. Dana white, UFC president, called him the father of MMA. The idea to mix and match the bests of each style came from Bruce Lee. He was pioneering a concept ahead of his time. It is generally understood that we wouldn’t have MMA as it is today without him.
You should really stop talking unless you have an idea of what the hell you are talking about. This is the type of revisionist bullshit history Lee-ophiles spew that makes everyone hate him.
MMA predates the small Asian actor you speak of by a few thousand years. The Gracies were fighting before Bruce Lee was even born. Dana White is a mongering businessmen who will try to attach his name to anything in pop culture so what he says is to be taken with a large grain of salt and a shot of whiskey.[/quote]
I am not a fanboy or “Lee-ophile” and I have no interest in anything other than preserving historical accuracy. MMA by all practical considerations is a recent phenomenon. You slam White for being a “businessmen” [sic], yet we owe MMA’s popularity and exposure to him and a small collection of other individuals, including lee, who used his fame appropriately.
You mentioned the Gracies. I would not consider any of the gracies to be mixed martial artists, and I am not alone in this opinion. The gracie challenge was supposed to show off how awesome BJJ was, not to advocate developing and practicing true mixed martial arts. Only much later, when they started losing to more well rounded fighters, were compromises made.
Your intense dislike for the success of White and the popularity of Lee is puzzling. I imagine you hate Bill Gates as well.
[quote]ironjoe wrote:
can’t imagine wanting to be the same weight as a 15 year old prepubescent teen, but to each their own. Dave Tate would have eaten him, however you forgot to add it would be between 4 pop tarts.[/quote]
ye but he would beat the shit out of Dave Tate anyday
[quote]Heliotrope wrote:
nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
I wish Bruce Lee was still alive to compete in MMA so he could get his ass handed to him on live TV.
If he was alive today, he would be 67 years old or do you mean you wish he were alive today but as a 32 year old in his prime? Please, be clear when you’re posting nonsense. Thanks.
Watching a 67 year old competing might be nice for a cruel joke but no I meant I wish he had been alive in his prime during the era of MMA.
Then he could get his ass kicked like every other champion that competes in competitive fighting and all you idiot fan boys would quit believing the nonsense that he was some demigod.
[/quote]
I admit to being a Bruce Lee fanboy. I also admit that as time goes on the feats attributed to him get more and more exaggerated. His legacy speaks for itself though, so I won’t go into detail. One thing, if you think about it, he can be considered the grandfather of what is now considered MMA. In the 60’s and 70’s you studied one discipline and if you wanted to expand your knowledge you had to go study another. Lee, through JKD, was trying to mix various disciplines into one effective art. This was unheard of at the time.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
I wish Bruce Lee was still alive to compete in MMA so he could get his ass handed to him on live TV.
If he was alive today, he would be 67 years old or do you mean you wish he were alive today but as a 32 year old in his prime? Please, be clear when you’re posting nonsense. Thanks.
So what? Randy Couture is 84 years old and still kicking ass.[/quote]
Yeah, but Randy is Captain America. Superhero’s can do things like that.
The following is my opinion…lol
MMA isn’t even as brutal as football, unless we’re talking about the last 2 or 3 punches/kicks. Given the option, I’d choose MMA over football. MMA would not be as debilitating as football potentially is…unless you’re a member of the field goal unit.
You can make the argument that football is more brutal BECAUSE of the pads (especially the helmet) because of the damage it can inflict, which is beyond the damage that most natural impacts could produce.
[quote]Racarnus wrote:
I am not a fanboy or “Lee-ophile” and I have no interest in anything other than preserving historical accuracy. MMA by all practical considerations is a recent phenomenon. [/quote]
No, it is not. The Greeks combined boxing and wrestling into the sport of Pankration a few thousand years ago (you can find little statues of arm bars and ground and pound from before the birth of Christ). No holds barred matches were very popular in the 1800’s between boxers and wrestlers such as the famous match between John L Sullivan and William Muldoon.
Vale Tudo fights were common in Brazil 70 years ago. Antonio Inoki held MMA fights (of questionable outcome) in Japan in the 60’s and 70’s. It is a new phenomenon in the United States only, thus you must striving to preserve historical perspective from an American perspective only.
I didn’t slam Dana White numb nuts, he is a businessman. A damn good one who has convinced people like you that the UFC is some brand new extreme sport and that no other form of no rules combat ever existed outside of it.
They fought in mixed martial arts. They are mixed martial artists. It was their work that led to the creation of the UFC, which is probably the only reason any of us know anything at all about MMA in the United States.
Windows sucks, and so does Bruce Lee. Go squat with your maxi pad.
[quote]nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
I wish Bruce Lee was still alive to compete in MMA so he could get his ass handed to him on live TV.
If he was alive today, he would be 67 years old or do you mean you wish he were alive today but as a 32 year old in his prime? Please, be clear when you’re posting nonsense. Thanks.
Watching a 67 year old competing might be nice for a cruel joke but no I meant I wish he had been alive in his prime during the era of MMA.
Then he could get his ass kicked like every other champion that competes in competitive fighting and all you idiot fan boys would quit believing the nonsense that he was some demigod.
I admit to being a Bruce Lee fanboy. I also admit that as time goes on the feats attributed to him get more and more exaggerated. His legacy speaks for itself though, so I won’t go into detail. One thing, if you think about it, he can be considered the grandfather of what is now considered MMA. In the 60’s and 70’s you studied one discipline and if you wanted to expand your knowledge you had to go study another. Lee, through JKD, was trying to mix various disciplines into one effective art. This was unheard of at the time.
[/quote]
It did not seem to carry on much after he died. When I was growing up there were karate and TKD schools everywhere but no JKD.
[quote]nikolo wrote:
In the 60’s and 70’s you studied one discipline and if you wanted to expand your knowledge you had to go study another. Lee, through JKD, was trying to mix various disciplines into one effective art. This was unheard of at the time.
[/quote]
Once again, not true at all and limited to the perspective of mainstream America at the time. Read about Bartitsu, a martial arts system created in the late 1800’s in England that combined Western bare knuckle boxing, wrestling, with Eastern TMA’s and practices.
Or check out this book, written in 1950 by Jack Dempsey, which outlines a plan for combining catch wrestling and judo techniques with boxing.
Or, read about Pankration in the ancient olympics.
I have no problem with Bruce Lee. His movies are entertaining and he brought martial arts to the spotlight. He was a goddamn actor though. Not a professional fighter. Yes, I’m sure his training meant he could handle himself well if trouble came up out in the real world. But the Bruce Lee fanaticism has clouded the reality about his contributions to the point that no one seems to question it anymore.
Many people have outlined different fighting techniques. Your right that is nothing new, but Bruce Lee in the short time before he died had begun to bring together many of the Best practices not just I want to box and mauy thai, or kung fu and wrestle. He went to muhammed ali for boxing, not some local boxing gym. Went to europe and trained with olympic wrestlers, then came up with a formal technique that included everything.
Unfortunately as Zap said I don’t think even 1/3rd of what he learned continued after his death but what little left had a major contribution in studying the fighting art. Which is why people say he is the grandfather of mma, christopher columbus was not the first person in america, but they still say he discovered it.
Do you have a point Donut? The fact that the ancient greeks had a form of mixed martial arts has nothing to do with how much credit can be assigned to Bruce lee for the popularity of MMA that has risen over the last few decades. That is what is being discussed. It seems you are more interested in insulting people than participating. You’re mostly responding to arguments that I havn’t made. Make no assumptions of my unsaid opinions. You lack the wherewithall to refute what I write, so you twist it and respond to what I didn’t.
[quote]Racarnus wrote:
Do you have a point Donut? The fact that the ancient greeks had a form of mixed martial arts has nothing to do with how much credit can be assigned to Bruce lee for the popularity of MMA that has risen over the last few decades. That is what is being discussed. It seems you are more interested in insulting people than participating. You’re mostly responding to arguments that I havn’t made. Make no assumptions of my unsaid opinions. You lack the wherewithall to refute what I write, so you twist it and respond to what I didn’t.
[/quote]
I’m not sure if you are insulting my intelligence and believing that I would not have the ability to click “page 2” of this thread, or if you truly forgot what you wrote. To quote the great Racarnus:
[quote]
Racarnus wrote:
The idea to mix and match the bests of each style came from Bruce Lee. He was pioneering a concept ahead of his time. It is generally understood that we wouldn’t have MMA as it is today without him. [/quote]
This isn’t your opinion, it is a statement of fact. As I have outlined, this notion is completely false. It was not a new idea. It is an idea as old as fighting. You said it, and apparently have now changed your stance to fall in line with Airtruth who brings a realistic perspective to Bruce Lee’s accomplishments. I’m glad I enlightened you, from your posts on this board you need all the help you can get.
Also:
[quote]
Racarnus wrote:
MMA by all practical considerations is a recent phenomenon. [/quote]
No, it isn’t. See above.
[quote]
Racarnus wrote:
The reason Bruce wasn’t alive during the “era of MMA” as you put it, is because MMA today is the direct consequence of his work.[/quote]
This is also false. He may be indirectly responsible for some of MMA’s popularity by bringing popularity to traditional martial arts and their practice. The creation of the UFC, which for all intents and purposes has become the flag bearer of modern MMA, is a direct consequence of the work put in by the Gracie family, namely Rorion, in the promotion and execution of the first UFC events in the United States before selling it to SEG. Also, we can’t forget Art Davies.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Many people have outlined different fighting techniques. Your right that is nothing new, but Bruce Lee in the short time before he died had begun to bring together many of the Best practices not just I want to box and mauy thai, or kung fu and wrestle. He went to muhammed ali for boxing, not some local boxing gym. Went to europe and trained with olympic wrestlers, then came up with a formal technique that included everything.
Unfortunately as Zap said I don’t think even 1/3rd of what he learned continued after his death but what little left had a major contribution in studying the fighting art. Which is why people say he is the grandfather of mma, christopher columbus was not the first person in america, but they still say he discovered it. [/quote]
I completely agree.
I respect a lot all study Bruce Lee has done in terms of evolution of martial arts, but father of mma? Just because there were no mma in USA doesnt mean it doesnt exist in the world.
In Brazil mma conpetitions called vale-tudo exists since the begining of last century, and many fighters mixed techniques from different styles such as BJJ, boxing and capoeira before Lee was born.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
nikolo wrote:
In the 60’s and 70’s you studied one discipline and if you wanted to expand your knowledge you had to go study another. Lee, through JKD, was trying to mix various disciplines into one effective art. This was unheard of at the time.
Once again, not true at all and limited to the perspective of mainstream America at the time. Read about Bartitsu, a martial arts system created in the late 1800’s in England that combined Western bare knuckle boxing, wrestling, with Eastern TMA’s and practices.
Or check out this book, written in 1950 by Jack Dempsey, which outlines a plan for combining catch wrestling and judo techniques with boxing.
Or, read about Pankration in the ancient olympics.
I have no problem with Bruce Lee. His movies are entertaining and he brought martial arts to the spotlight. He was a goddamn actor though. Not a professional fighter. Yes, I’m sure his training meant he could handle himself well if trouble came up out in the real world. But the Bruce Lee fanaticism has clouded the reality about his contributions to the point that no one seems to question it anymore.[/quote]
While I admit my knowledge is limited to the American perspective at the time, and I respect yours, to say it’s not true at all is pushing it a bit I think. While Bartitsu and Pankration were developed long before Lee started to cultivate JKD, how much influence did they have on many of today’s fighters?
From what I have read, Bartitsu is nearly extinct and you have to travel to Greece for Pankration. That’s also why I said he could be considered the grandfather of today’s MMA. I didn’t say he was the first and only one to mix disciplines or try to create a well rounded art. I am sure there were people even during his time that were attempting it as Lee was attempting it but we will never know about.
All we can do is speculate about whether Lee was a great fighter or not but that is only one aspect of being a martial artist. And Lee was a hell of a martial artist.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
nikolo wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
I wish Bruce Lee was still alive to compete in MMA so he could get his ass handed to him on live TV.
If he was alive today, he would be 67 years old or do you mean you wish he were alive today but as a 32 year old in his prime? Please, be clear when you’re posting nonsense. Thanks.
Watching a 67 year old competing might be nice for a cruel joke but no I meant I wish he had been alive in his prime during the era of MMA.
Then he could get his ass kicked like every other champion that competes in competitive fighting and all you idiot fan boys would quit believing the nonsense that he was some demigod.
I admit to being a Bruce Lee fanboy. I also admit that as time goes on the feats attributed to him get more and more exaggerated. His legacy speaks for itself though, so I won’t go into detail. One thing, if you think about it, he can be considered the grandfather of what is now considered MMA. In the 60’s and 70’s you studied one discipline and if you wanted to expand your knowledge you had to go study another. Lee, through JKD, was trying to mix various disciplines into one effective art. This was unheard of at the time.
It did not seem to carry on much after he died. When I was growing up there were karate and TKD schools everywhere but no JKD.
[/quote]
What you say is true but look at how many JKD school’s there are now. The seeds were planted and carried on by the likes of the late Larry Hartsell and Dan Inosanto(Inosanto is much more than JKD with his mastery of the Filipino MA’s).
We grew up in a different era. One in which Lee was denied the role of Kwai Chang Caine on TV’s Kung Fu because he was Asian and the bigotry at the time led them to choose David Carradine instead.
When we were growing up art’s like Muay Thai for example, were just beginning to be heard about. Now look at the popularity of Muay Thai.
[quote]nikolo wrote:
From what I have read, Bartitsu is nearly extinct and you have to travel to Greece for Pankration. That’s also why I said he could be considered the grandfather of today’s MMA. I didn’t say he was the first and only one to mix disciplines or try to create a well rounded art. I am sure there were people even during his time that were attempting it as Lee was attempting it but we will never know about.
All we can do is speculate about whether Lee was a great fighter or not but that is only one aspect of being a martial artist. And Lee was a hell of a martial artist.
[/quote]
I agree, saying he has had ZERO influence is hyperbole on my part. I get hyped up because for some reason Bruce Lee seems to have the most bizzare fan boys of any celebrity.
In all reality, the Vale Tudo competitions in Brazil are more or less the true forefathers of modern MMA. They were the inspirational force behind the formation of MMA organizations in America and Japan, which are the two main driving markets behind the current MMA boom. You could lump Bruce Lee in there for his celebrity, but really he was attached to the whole MMA movement later on.
I think you will find his contributions to actual fighting technique are very limited, but his philosophy rang true for those who took it to heart. Accept was is useful, reject what is useless, or something to that effect, and all that good jazz.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
nikolo wrote:
From what I have read, Bartitsu is nearly extinct and you have to travel to Greece for Pankration. That’s also why I said he could be considered the grandfather of today’s MMA. I didn’t say he was the first and only one to mix disciplines or try to create a well rounded art. I am sure there were people even during his time that were attempting it as Lee was attempting it but we will never know about.
All we can do is speculate about whether Lee was a great fighter or not but that is only one aspect of being a martial artist. And Lee was a hell of a martial artist.
I agree, saying he has had ZERO influence is hyperbole on my part. I get hyped up because for some reason Bruce Lee seems to have the most bizzare fan boys of any celebrity.
In all reality, the Vale Tudo competitions in Brazil are more or less the true forefathers of modern MMA. They were the inspirational force behind the formation of MMA organizations in America and Japan, which are the two main driving markets behind the current MMA boom. You could lump Bruce Lee in there for his celebrity, but really he was attached to the whole MMA movement later on.
I think you will find his contributions to actual fighting technique are very limited, but his philosophy rang true for those who took it to heart. Accept was is useful, reject what is useless, or something to that effect, and all that good jazz.[/quote]
Good points and I agree.