[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I have refuted it multiple times.
You haven’t refuted it once. You turned to a red herring argument and completely ignored the logical fallacy that I pointed out.
[/quote]
I think you are hanging out at too many gay web sites.
Once again:
Black = genetic
Female = genetic
Homosexual = an action
I don’t mind pointing that out to you. And I will do it again and again.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Enough with the catastrophizing about how the country would be destroyed by sanctioning gay unions…[/quote]
I never once said that. If you think that I have please post it exactly as stated and I will apologize.
Other wise it is YOU who owe me an apology for mischaraxterizing my position? (Pssst…some would call it lying. 
Can’t get your point across any other way?
Sad.
Between name calling and mischaracterizing my position you are not representing the homosexual community very well…
[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
No hypocricy here fella
I think any objective person can read your comments in this thread and conclude that you are mocking, disparaging, and hateful toward gays. Given that such behavior is directly against the teachings of the person you claim to worship, you are indeed a hypocrite.
[/quote]
I have not done anything that demonstrates a hatered of gays. I have ripped on you for making silly comparisons to attempt to prove a flawed argument.
BTW - what crediblity do you have in biblical authority? I have seen nothing to comes from you that would lead me to take your biblical knowledge seriously.
Keep in mind forlife, you and I are both sinners - the only difference is that I have accepted it whereas you have not. No hipocricy there.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
No honestly all kidding aside I just think you’re goofy.
I’ve just noticed that whenever we get to the end of a particular line of discussion, and you are logically cornered with nowhere to retreat, your natural response is to start blustering and name calling:
“LOL! You are soooo goofy! Do you really expect me to believe that?? Ha ha ha!”
As if your bluster somehow changes the fact that you don’t have a logical response to the point being made. I’m not falling for it, and I don’t think most others reading this thread are either.
[/quote]
You have been STOPPED when we discussed the religious aspect early in this thread.
You were STOPPED cold again when we discussed the health aspects of homosexuality.
You were STOPPED again when we disscussed the popularity of homosexual marriage.
And you are once again STOPPED when I cornered YOU on the Polygamy and incest issue.
Now can you see why I think you are somewhat …um “strange” for continuing to hang around and beat the same old tired horse that wouldn’t run for you in any aspect of this debate?
And that’s why I call you goofy.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
You only want to use the Bible when you THINK it suits your purposes.
[/quote]
Just pointing out that YOUR bible condemns many of the mocking, hateful comments made in this thread. Whether or not I believe in your bible is irrelevant. The point is that people in this thread believe in it, and are acting contrary to its commandments in their treatment of gays. By any definition, that makes them hypocrites.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
And I want a definitive answer to my polygamist and those who practice incest question.
I gave you a definitive answer. I think that each case (polygamy, incest, whatever) should be objectively studied to determine whether or not it causes significant harm. I’m not an expert on polygamy or incest, so I can’t tell you whether these cases would produce harm or not. If they would, then marriage should be disallowed…if not then there is no harm being done and people shouldn’t stand in their way.
It boils down to a very basic premise:
Government policies should be driven by facts rather than fiction.[/quote]
Harm?
The homosexual act and lifestyle produce a great amount of “harm.” So why should we legalize marriage for this group? To produce more “harm?”
That’s actually funny stuff.
You don’t want marriage for polygamists or incest if it is harmful. But you don’t mind homosexual marriage even though every single statistic from virtually anywhere you look places homosexuals at the BOTTOM of the ladder when it comes to health- both physical and mental!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Once again:
Black = genetic
Female = genetic
Homosexual = an action
[/quote]
Point it out as often as you like. You still haven’t addressed the basic logical fallacy, which is that if 3 things don’t share a particular feature in common, they therefore cannot share anything in common.
You are essentially saying:
Apple = red
Orange = orange
Grapefruit = yellow
Therefore, they have nothing in common!
Lol.
They are all fruits, they are all round, they all grow on trees, they all have peels, etc. They share many things in common, despite not having a common color.
Enough with the sophistry.
[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
No hypocricy here fella
I think any objective person can read your comments in this thread and conclude that you are mocking, disparaging, and hateful toward gays. Given that such behavior is directly against the teachings of the person you claim to worship, you are indeed a hypocrite.
[/quote]
You chastise terribleivan for being hateful. Yet, you use terms like “Bible thumper” and other disparaging remarks toward Christians.
That would make you a hypocrite.
Please tell us what are the rules of your little game?
You can attack, but the rest of us are to sit back and not use similar tactics?
Yea…that pretty much speaks for the politically correct left…
[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Thanks for interjecting some sense, but it is very unlikely that forlife will be able to grasp the simplicity of “choice”.
Sexual orientation is not a choice (read the above studies since you apparently missed them earlier).
However, even if it was a choice, your point would still be moot.
Should black men be prohibited from the CHOICE to marry white women?[/quote]
Were black men born with their dicks in each other’s asses? No, they were born with black skin. Big difference.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I never once said that. If you think that I have please post it exactly as stated and I will apologize.
[/quote]
So you’re admitting that sanctioning gay marriage wouldn’t have any negative consequences for the country?
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
And is every sort of discrimination bad?
Think.
Try following your own advice. I’ve asked this before, and you ignored it. Let’s try again:
Should the government refuse to sanction the marriage of straight couples that plan to have anal sex?
Hmmm…[/quote]
I thought I answered that one.
It’s JUST the primary gay sex act which causes a great deal of pain and disease that stops me from approving of gay marriage.
It is the many other things that we have been debating which I’m not fond of. For example, you have not given me even ONE good reason for changing a 5000+ year old institution for about 1% of the population.
You see the standard of proof rests upon your shoulders to actually give reasons WHY this should be done.
You just don’t march up and demand that marriage be changed to suit the needs of such a small group of people who have CHOSEN to have sex with someone of the same gender.
As we all know 87% of all homosexual men have had sex with women…more than once. And you even fit this statistic!
Because you now CHOOSE to have sex with another man the entire country has to change the definition of marriage?
NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BUB!
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
I have not done anything that demonstrates a hatered of gays.[/quote]
You have made several posts which are mocking, disparaging, and outright hateful. The other fundamentalists haven’t been perfect, but in my opinion you have gone further than them, especially with your comments the past couple of days.
I don’t need credibility. I provided the biblical references, and you can look them up for yourself.
If it helps you feel better though, I was a fundamentalist for most of my life and served a full time unpaid Christian mission for two years. I’ve probably spent more time reading the bible than you ever will.
Actually, the difference is that your actions directly contradict the words of the person you claim to worship. Mine don’t.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
You don’t want marriage for polygamists or incest if it is harmful. But you don’t mind homosexual marriage even though every single statistic from virtually anywhere you look places homosexuals at the BOTTOM of the ladder when it comes to health- both physical and mental!
[/quote]
As I pointed out earlier (and will continue to point out), your “statistics” are flawed because they completely ignore the positive effects of gay marriage. If you really care about the physical and mental health of gays, you should encourage them to marry rather than denying them the right.
We also found that partnership recognition contributed to the success of Scandinavian programs to prevent AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases.
forlife,
It seems in areas where they are more “accepting” of homosexuality (civil unions etc) the mental health statistics are still bleak!
"…does pressure from society lead to mental health problems? Less than one might imagine. The Netherlands authors were surprised to find so much mental illness in homosexual people because they thought tolerance to gay people was greater in the Netherlands than almost all other countries. Another test country is New Zealand. Although suicide attempts were common in the New Zealand study and occurred at about the same rate as US results, New Zealand is much more tolerant of homosexuality than the United States, and legislation giving the movement ?rights? is powerful, enforced throughout the country, and virtually never challenged. Ross (1988) in his cross cultural comparison of mental health in the Netherlands, Denmark and the US, could find no significant differences between countries ? i.e. the greater hostility in the United States did not create greater mental problems.
There goes your case for all of the “oppressed” homosexuals having mental problems because society won’t sanction homosexual marriage.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I don’t need credibility. I provided the biblical references, and you can look them up for yourself.
If it helps you feel better though, I was a fundamentalist for most of my life and served a full time unpaid Christian mission for two years. I’ve probably spent more time reading the bible than you ever will.
[/quote]
EEEEEEGGGAGGHHHH! I can only imagine how much harm you did as a Christian missionary.
PS. Reading the bible with your own worldly mind is much different that reading it with the Spirit of God at the helm.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
You chastise terribleivan for being hateful. Yet, you use terms like “Bible thumper” and other disparaging remarks toward Christians.
That would make you a hypocrite.[/quote]
First, there is a big difference between calling someone a bible thumper and making comments like:
[quote]“Oh, I am so oppressed. I am so void of basic human rights. I can not even get married.”
Pathetic.[/quote]
Second, you got it wrong. I never chastised Ivan for being hateful. I chastised him for being a hypocrite, since the person he claims to worship chastises him for being hateful.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Were black men born with their dicks in each other’s asses? No, they were born with black skin. Big difference.
[/quote]
But black men can CHOOSE not to marry white women. We all know the bible condemns interracial marriage, that it is unnatural, and that it is an insult to the traditional definition of marriage.
Black men should CHOOSE to marry women of their own race instead of wanting special rights!
Yes, bigots made the above argument decades ago and they used their bibles to justify their discrimination just like you are doing today.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Because you now CHOOSE to have sex with another man the entire country has to change the definition of marriage?
[/quote]
So let me get this right. It’s not the anal sex thing so much as that you don’t like the idea of changing the definition of marriage. I take it you wouldn’t advocate denying marriage to straight couples that plan to practice anal sex.
Let’s run with the “traditional marriage” thing then. I noticed you were back to the 5,000 year thing again (despite claiming that Jesus started marriage between a man and a woman 2,000 years ago). I also noticed that you never answered my question about father Abraham being a polygamist, and bucking the “traditional marriage” trend. Was Abraham being a bad boy?
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You chastise terribleivan for being hateful. Yet, you use terms like “Bible thumper” and other disparaging remarks toward Christians.
That would make you a hypocrite.
First, there is a big difference between calling someone a bible thumper and making comments like
I don’t know how dumb some people can be, but I’m constantly amazed. Some idiots believe that being born with black skin is the same as being born with your dick in another man’s ass. The second you pop out - poof, your dick is in there. Amazing.
“Oh, I am so oppressed. I am so void of basic human rights. I can not even get married.”
Pathetic.
Second, you got it wrong. I never chastised Ivan for being hateful. I chastised him for being a hypocrite, since the person he claims to worship chastises him for being hateful.
[/quote]
I’m pretty sure you called me hateful forlife. And your wrong, not hateful, just sick of this bologna. I’m just giving you what you need - I’ll call it the Ann Coulter treatment.
You are dragging our country down forlife. Worst part is, you don’t even know it.
Newsflash for you forlife - Jesus doens’t expect us to be perfect - that’s why he died on the cross. You must have missed that point on your mission trips.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
There goes your case for all of the “oppressed” homosexuals having mental problems because society won’t sanction homosexual marriage.
[/quote]
Moot. Even if your claim were true, you are just falling into another logical fallacy. I’ll keep it simple for you:
“Penicillin doesn’t cure heart disease, therefore it is worthless!”
Sounds pretty silly, doesn’t it? Nobody said that gay marriage would be a magic cure all. However, people have found that government sanctioned gay unions do have numerous positive social benefits:
[b]After Denmark recognized same-sex couples in 1989, the marriage rate increased, the divorce rate fell and the rate of childbirths outside of marriage declined for the first time in decades?
Moreover, allowing same-sex couples to marry has a number of positive benefits. We interviewed a variety of Danish couples who had registered as partners. They told us how their legal unions deepened their commitment to each other, helped legally protect the children they were raising, enriched their relationships with family members and co-workers, and educated the community.
Our book documents the numerous social and community benefits from Scandinavian recognition of lesbian and gay partnerships. Because marriage and partnership serve private social welfare functions, legal recognition stands to save the state money. Recognition helps integrate lesbian and gay families into the larger society and helps attract productive workers to the country.
We also found that partnership recognition contributed to the success of Scandinavian programs to prevent AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases.
The Nordic nations have had marriage-like partnerships for 17 years now, and the sky did not fall.[/b]