Brokeback Propaganda

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Now tell me do you think that polygamy and incest hurt anyone? And if so how are they harmful?

I don’t know the answer to that question. I would recommend looking at any existing objective data to make that determination, and let that drive public policy accordingly.[/quote]

LOL!..You want to look at “objective data?”

But you look the other way when I post data from the CDC web site which clearly shows that the homosexual act and lifestyle are dangerous!

So, let me get this straight’ if polygamy and incest are shown to be dangerous then they should NOT have the opportunity to marry?

But homosexuals SHOULD have the right to marry even though evidence promotes the fact that the lifestyle and act are dangerous.

Ha ha…You are cracking me up!

:slight_smile:

You guys don’t understand how the homosexual activist works yet do you?

Here’s what happens:

They can spew any sort of hate and name calling that they want.

They can call you homophobic!

They can call you a Bigot!

They can say that you hate them!

They can even sit back and attack your faith calling you a “Bible thumper” or whatever happens to roll off their lips.

And after they spew their brand of hate they run and hide under the cloak of “minority” attempting to compare themselves to blacks and women (even though both of those are genetic and homosexuality is an action).

And if you attempt to respond directly to their brand of hate they jump up and down and talk about Jesus.

Did terribleivan break one of Gods laws by mocking you?

Show me which one. But remember as soon as you bring this into a Bible debate you will only lose AGAIN!

(shakig head) funny stuff!

forlife you and your entire movement are fast becoming a joke!

And as more states reject gay marriage you need not wonder why. You only have to look at the pathetic arguments presented on this thread by those in favor of gay marriage.

If this is as good as it gets you have no hope.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You once again forgot about the single most important factor which makes y our argument null and void:
[/quote]

Actually, YOU forgot that the commonality between being gay, being black, or being a woman is that you are a minority group that has experienced systematic discrimination from a largely religiously motivated, bigoted majority.

You can’t logically say that:

Not all of A = all of B
Therefore none of A = part of B

Obviously:

Part of A can = Part of B even when
Not all of A = all of B

Get over the illogical sophistry already.

I looked through your articles, and didn’t see a single one studying the effects of gay marriage. Not surprising though…it is par for the course for you to throw out a long list of irrelevant articles as a technique for distracting people from the ball.

I’m not going to let you do that though. As I’ve shown, gay marriage has positive benefits for society:

“The opposite occurred: After 1989, the marriage rate increased, the divorce rate fell and the rate of childbirths outside of marriage declined for the first time in decades.”

“Moreover, allowing same-sex couples to marry has a number of positive benefits. We interviewed a variety of Danish couples who had registered as partners. They told us how their legal unions deepened their commitment to each other, helped legally protect the children they were raising, enriched their relationships with family members and co-workers, and educated the community.”

“Our book documents the numerous social and community benefits from Scandinavian recognition of lesbian and gay partnerships. Because marriage and partnership serve private social welfare functions, legal recognition stands to save the state money. Recognition helps integrate lesbian and gay families into the larger society and helps attract productive workers to the country.”

“We also found that partnership recognition contributed to the success of Scandinavian programs to prevent AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases.”

[quote]ZEB wrote:
The homosexual act and the homosexual lifestyle are dangerous!
[/quote]

Alcohol is dangerous! Let’s make it illegal to drink alcohol!

Cigarettes are dangerous! Let’s throw people in prison for smoking!

Trans fats are dangerous! Let’s fine restaurants that serve food with trans fats!

[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife you and your entire movement are fast becoming a joke!

And as more states reject gay marriage you need not wonder why. [/quote]

I know you find comfort in believing this, but the big picture proves otherwise:

[quote]The Bigots’ Last Gasp

Paul Waldman

June 14, 2006

Paul Waldman is a senior fellow at Media Matters for America and the author
of the new book, Being Right is Not Enough: What Progressives Can Learn From
Conservative Success , just released by John Wiley & Sons. The views
expressed here are his own.

Few people could have been surprised that as election day approaches,
Republicans in Congress would turn away from substantive issues and back to
the well of homophobia to try to squeeze one more victory from the fear and hatred of their most committed supporters. But what is most striking about their current push to amend the Constitution to ban gay marriage is how
outdated the effort already seems. It?s like, so 2004.

The fact that the constitutional amendment is beginning to sound a bit like the Macarena ?a lot of Americans thought it was catchy once, but most aren’t too eager to hear it again?is testimony to how quickly this issue is
evolving. In fact, even though a majority of Americans still oppose the
legalization of gay marriage (the number has fallen to 51 percent in a
recent Pew poll, the right has already lost this battle. There will be gay
marriage everywhere in America, and it will be supported by most Americans.
The only question is whether it happens in five years or ten years or 20
years.

This is occurring not just because people?s opinions are changing as the
virtuous cycle takes hold (more gay people are out, which means more people
know someone who is gay, which means people get more comfortable with it,
which means more people feel free to come out, and around we go). The most
important factor is generational replacement: those most opposed to civil
rights for gay Americans are the older generations, who won?t be around
forever. A majority of people under 35 already support gay marriage; anyone
who thinks that future generations will be less supportive of equality than
those living today, raise your hand.

We will see what we have seen in previous civil rights battles: change will happen first in progressive states, then in what we now consider purple states, and finally in the South (Although it may take a while there;
consider that Alabama finally got around to repealing its law against
interracial marriage in 2000. That is not a typo. And 40 percent of Alabamians voted to keep the law on the books.) Republicans will go through
a period of speaking the right words to the rest of the country even as they
mine prejudice for votes in the South, just as they have on race. But
eventually they will repudiate their own history and stop doing even that.

To get a sense of how fast things have changed on this issue, let?s review a
bit of recent history. In April 1997, actress Ellen DeGeneres and the
character she played on the sitcom ?Ellen? simultaneously came out of the
closet. It was a cultural earthquake: a Lexis-Nexis search for March, April,
and May of that year produces no fewer than 1,465 news stories about DeGeneres? coming out, including 758?or over 25 stories per day? that April.
It was so shocking that for a time, people seemed to talk of little else.

Yet here we are less than a decade later, and it seems hard to understand
why it was such a big deal. Television and movies are full of gay characters, and as a consequence more and more Americans know someone who is gay (or rather, who they know is gay), even if that person is only a character on one of their favorite shows. In 1992, 42 percent of Americans told the CBS/New York Times poll that they personally knew a gay person; by 2004 the number had risen to 69 percent in a Los Angeles Times poll. And nothing changes opinions about gay rights faster than learning that someone
you care for is gay.

And consider how fast the politics have changed. It?s true that in 2004
anti-gay marriage initiatives succeeded in 11 states. But the most
remarkable thing was that we were discussing the issue at all. For years,
gay activists felt that marriage equality was too dramatic a change to
attempt to achieve. It was the right wing that used the specter of gay
marriage as a scare tactic, but before you knew it we were seriously
debating the issue. Remember the fury over gays in the military that led to
?Don?t ask, don?t tell?? Today, by a two-to-one margin the public thinks gay
people should be able to serve openly in the armed forces.

When Howard Dean started campaigning for the presidency in 2002, those in
the know in Washington considered him the longest of long shots, not because
he was against the Iraq war or because he came from a small state, but
because he signed a civil unions bill as governor of Vermont. This, it was
thought, ensured that regular Americans would see him as a far-out lefty
kook. But by the time the primaries came to a close, all the other
Democratic candidates had embraced civil unions (excepting those who
endorsed gay marriage itself). And not long before election day, none other
than George W. Bush said that if a state wanted to legalize civil unions,
that was OK with him.

Today, as Bush gives speeches in favor of amending the Constitution to ban
gay marriage, White House sources are trotted out to whisper to reporters
that his heart isn?t in it. He?s not really a hateful guy, he just has to
appease his base.

This isn?t the first time we?ve heard this sort of thing from Bush.
According to Glen Maxey, who was then a Texas state legislator, during a
1999 debate about gays being permitted to adopt, Bush told him on the floor
of the Texas legislature: ?Glen, I value you as a person. I value you as a
human being. And I want you to know that what I say publicly about gay
people does not pertain to you personally.? Which is a nice thing to hear, when the guy telling you then turns around to argue that you?re such a moral reprobate that you shouldn?t be permitted to adopt children.

All of his supposed personal goodwill notwithstanding, Bush?s effort to
amend the Constitution to prohibit gay marriage will one day be seen as of a
piece with George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door: a relic of an
earlier, uglier time, a politician playing on the worst instincts and
prejudices of his most loyal supporters. It will be an episode in a story where the ending is a happy one in which justice prevails. In our lifetimes, people who point to Leviticus as the reason they
absolutely cannot abide homosexuality will come to look a bit like those who
now hold fast to the view that the punishment for working on the Sabbath
should be death (Exodus 31:15, in case you?re wondering). And as anti-gay
sentiment of the kind Bush hopes to tap becomes the hallmark of fringe
thought, the views he and his Republican compatriots express today will seem more and more repellent to more and more Americans.

We would be remiss if we did not acknowledge that prominent Democrats have hardly been models of moral courage on this issue; most now support civil unions while continuing to hold that “marriage should be between a man and a woman,” even though it is hard to avoid the feeling that they know what?s
right but don?t have the guts to say it. But it?s always foolish to look to
politicians for moral leadership. Not to worry ?once they see how far the
public has moved, they?ll come around.
[/quote]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You once again forgot about the single most important factor which makes y our argument null and void:

Actually, YOU forgot that the commonality between being gay, being black, or being a woman is that you are a minority group that has experienced systematic discrimination from a largely religiously motivated, bigoted majority.

You can’t logically say that:

Not all of A = all of B
Therefore none of A = part of B

Obviously:

Part of A can = Part of B even when
Not all of A = all of B

Get over the illogical sophistry already.[/quote]

Actually your logic sort of sucks.

Discrimination in and of itself is not bad and never was. It is WHAT you are discriminating against that makes discrimination right or wrong. After all you are a good parent if you are discriminating and not letting your child hang with the wrong crowd.

Any…and I mean ANY group which is smaller than the majority can claim minority group status. But what does that mean? Does it mean that they are entitled to special marital rights?

Rapists are a minority.

Alcoholics are a minority.

Drug addicts are a minority.

Bank robbers are a minortiy.

Polygamists are a minority.

Those who pracitice incest are a minority.

Those who practice beastiality are a minority.

Those who are celibate are a minority.

Those who masturbate in public are a minority.

There are many diseases, perversions, crimes and habits which bring people into a minority.

I could go on and on…

BIG DEAL!

Homosexuals are a minority too.

SO WHAT?

It’s an ACTION which places you in the minority of people: Perhaps about 2% or so.

That does not make you entitled to any special rights relative to marriage.

In other words:

Minority status does not equal special marital rights!

:slight_smile:

Keep trying however as I think we can take this to 100 pages…

[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ve shown, gay marriage has positive benefits for society:[/quote]

It does?

Well you’ll have to prove that one.

Hey I think I have a compromise!

This just might work…

Why don’t you find a small Island and ship in a bunch of gay people and have them all get married.

And then in 10 years or so let us know how everything is going.

yea…I’m for that.

That would be cool----a land where everyone is gay. Hey no more population problems. Eventually you will all die out. And since you cannot have children of your own …well that will be that huh?

LOL

Well I guess you have proven that gay marriage in America is a good idea. NOT

Danish couples who registered as partners?

LOL

You are one goofy individual (shaking head)

And gays adopting has actually taken a turn for the worse from your vantage point that is.

Would you like me to post links on how many states are reversing “gay adoption?”

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
The homosexual act and the homosexual lifestyle are dangerous!

Alcohol is dangerous! Let’s make it illegal to drink alcohol!

Cigarettes are dangerous! Let’s throw people in prison for smoking!

Trans fats are dangerous! Let’s fine restaurants that serve food with trans fats![/quote]

You have a good point there forlife. The government does in fact promote the consumption of alcohol and cigarettes…OH WAIT! No it doesn’t!

In fact the government made the tobacco companies run adds talking about the dangers of smoking. And similar warnings are posted on bottles of alcohol.

No one is talking about making being gay illegal----We just don’t want the government to sanction it. And…they’re not going to! :slight_smile:

LOL…you better quit while you are way way behind.

(But not until we hit 100 pages)

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Did terribleivan break one of Gods laws by mocking you?

Show me which one.[/quote]

There are many, but here are a few random scriptures for you:

[quote]Isaiah 28:22
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Mark 12:31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Luke 6
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you…

For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them…

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil…

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.[/quote]

Comparing the disparaging, mocking, hateful comments in this thread against the above standard illustrates the hypocrisy pretty clearly.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Actually your logic sort of sucks.[/quote]

Because you can’t refute it? Stop saying that gays can’t be compared to women or blacks then. All of your blather doesn’t touch on the basic logical fallacy which I already pointed out, and will continue to point out if you try to make the claim again.

More importantly, it is what standard you use for discriminating. Fundamentalists thumped their bibles and truly believed that it was wrong for blacks to marry whites, or for women to vote. The bible proved an inadequate standard back then, and it continues to be an inadequate standard when it comes to granting gays equal rights.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
It does?

Well you’ll have to prove that one.
[/quote]

I already did:

[b]After Denmark recognized same-sex couples in 1989, the marriage rate increased, the divorce rate fell and the rate of childbirths outside of marriage declined for the first time in decades?

Moreover, allowing same-sex couples to marry has a number of positive benefits. We interviewed a variety of Danish couples who had registered as partners. They told us how their legal unions deepened their commitment to each other, helped legally protect the children they were raising, enriched their relationships with family members and co-workers, and educated the community.

Our book documents the numerous social and community benefits from Scandinavian recognition of lesbian and gay partnerships. Because marriage and partnership serve private social welfare functions, legal recognition stands to save the state money. Recognition helps integrate lesbian and gay families into the larger society and helps attract productive workers to the country.

We also found that partnership recognition contributed to the success of Scandinavian programs to prevent AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases.

The Nordic nations have had marriage-like partnerships for 17 years now, and the sky did not fall.[/b]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
LOL

You are one goofy individual (shaking head)[/quote]

I always know when I score a point with you, because you resort to vague blather and name calling :slight_smile:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
No one is talking about making being gay illegal----We just don’t want the government to sanction it.
[/quote]

You must have missed my earlier question. Here it is again (I know you have an attention deficit issue):

Should the government refuse to sanction marriage for straight couples planning to practice anal sex?

Hmmm…

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Did terribleivan break one of Gods laws by mocking you?

Show me which one.

There are many, but here are a few random scriptures for you:

Isaiah 28:22
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Mark 12:31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Luke 6
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you…

For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them…

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil…

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

Comparing the disparaging, mocking, hateful comments in this thread against the above standard illustrates the hypocrisy pretty clearly.
[/quote]

I’ll just give you one warning as I don’t want to turn this into another Bible thread as we’ve had enough.

Don’t quote anymore Bible passages. If you do I will start to quote them and you won’t like what they say about how YOU live your life.

You see you can’t sit there as an agnostic attacking Christian principals and then for convenience sake start quoting scripture.

Well…actually you can. But
that sort of makes you look…um like a nut.

Okay…that was your one warning.

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Actually your logic sort of sucks.

Because you can’t refute it? [/quote]

I have refuted it multiple times.

Gays can’t be compared to women or blacks.

I don’t mind correcting you again.

You see here’s the difference:

Black = genetic

Women = genetic

Homosexual = An action

Try to remember that in the future and I won’t have to correct you.

Thank you.

[quote]Discrimination in and of itself is not bad and never was. It is WHAT you are discriminating against that makes discrimination right or wrong.

More importantly, it is what standard you use for discriminating. Fundamentalists thumped their bibles and truly believed that it was wrong for blacks to marry whites, or for women to vote. The bible proved an inadequate standard back then, and it continues to be an inadequate standard when it comes to granting gays equal rights.[/quote]

I know you want badly to turn this into a Bible debate. But actually it’s not…Not yet anyway.

This is more about what sort of country that we want our children to grow up in. What traditions should be respected. And most importantly what is and is not healthy behavior.

One does not have to be a Christian to be against gay marriage. And I suspect that out of the 70% or so who are against gay marriage many are not Christian. Perhaps the non Christians who are agaisnt gay marriage simply get a sense that it is against nature and wrong on its face. Perhaps they simply respect the fact that traditional marriage is most important to a health society.

Who knows?

I’m just happy that they’re against it.

(Soup Nazi voice) “No gay marriage for you!”

:slight_smile:

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It does?

Well you’ll have to prove that one.

I already did:

After Denmark recognized same-sex couples in 1989, the marriage rate increased, the divorce rate fell and the rate of childbirths outside of marriage declined for the first time in decades?[/quote]

You think it dropped off because of the 87% of gays that are somehow magically able to have sex with women.

Even though they actually prefer men.

Sorry Bub that does not qualify as marriage!

Oh shucks…not marriage either.

“Marriage like?”

Um…that would not be “marriage” either.

You went 0 for 3!

You’re out!

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
LOL

You are one goofy individual (shaking head)

I always know when I score a point with you, because you resort to vague blather and name calling :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Points?

No honestly all kidding aside I just think you’re goofy.

Really…

And I want a definitive answer to my polygamist and those who practice incest question.

I will keep reminding you until you answer me one way or the other.