This is where you run into interpretation issues. Of course, the bible in places speaks against it.
However, it speaks against many things and society ignores those things. For example, selection of foods and treatment of women.
[/quote]
This is very true. The Bible is an excellent guideline to live a moral life. But their are many practices and attitutides in the bible that we NO LONGER consider moral and practices many of the holiest men in both the Old and New testament engaged in that we consider immoral today.
No one that seeks a perfectly literal interpretation can satisfactorily explain this. Either they were wrong or we are and should revert to the stance on women and slaves that the holiest men of the bible took and practiced in their daily lives.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
vroom wrote:
vroom, why are you being so difficult? According to the Bible and the Christian Faith, is homosexuality right or wrong?
Here’s where you appropriately say: It’s wrong.
It vexes me that you’re trying to tell Christians that our speaking out against homosexuality is a form of judgment and condemnation. A simple Christian dogma is love the sinner, hate the sin. There’s nothing more to tell you on the matter.
Good morning Stellar,
This is where you run into interpretation issues. Of course, the bible in places speaks against it.
However, it speaks against many things and society ignores those things. For example, selection of foods and treatment of women.
If we are allowed to interpret some of the passages as very out of date and no longer important, what, other than distaste, is causing you to maintain some others? Who decides which is and is not important?
Do you feel the bible is a literal commandment of behavior, which is true for all time, or that it consists of stories of varying applicability which need to be interpreted with the growing capabilities of mankind?
vroom,
Some of the confusion comes because of Old Testament beliefs mainly “Lecitical law”. They were there for various reasons, some health believe it or not.
However, when Christ came some of that stuff was washed away. What didn’t get “washed away?”
Obviously the many things that are clearly stated in the New Testament. And one of those things (among many) is the sin of Homsexuality.
[/quote]
Are you really saying that the New Testament ‘washed away’ all of points of contention and problems with the Bible from our perspective today. I don’t think so. Bible scholars, help me out.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
But when a man walks out on his family to have sex with other men, well that’s wrong! And it will always be wrong.[/quote]
I didn’t “walk out on my family”. Divorce was a mutual decision between my wife and myself. If anything, she felt stronger about the decision than I did. We both realized that the price of being in a mixed orientation marriage was not worth it. As per your modus operandi, you are speaking out of your ass without having any real knowledge of the facts.
I mean this sincerely: if someone like you were to approve of my actions, I would be seriously concerned about the wisdom of my course. You see, I followed the advice of people like you for 20+ years and it did not produce happiness, peace, or integration. It only produced pain, for myself and my loved ones. Now that I am living with integrity, all of that has been reversed.
If you want to know why I keep harping on my present happiness, it is because YOU keep harping on my present unhappiness (as if you know better than me whether or not I am happy). Stop projecting your religious preferences onto my life, and stop pretending like you know my emotional state better than I do. God, the arrogance is stifling.
Are you really saying that the New Testament ‘washed away’ all of points of contention and problems with the Bible from our perspective today. I don’t think so. Bible scholars, help me out.
[/quote]
What point do you need clarification on? Please specify.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Obviously the many things that are clearly stated in the New Testament. And one of those things (among many) is the sin of Homsexuality.
Once again, it is not for us to judge. God will decide individually, whether or not any particular sinner will or will not be accepted.
While we know what things are wrong, we don’t know the criteria of judgment or how such sins can be offset by other behaviors during our lives.
Beware of usurping this judgment, and acting based upon it, as it is reserved.[/quote]
When you say that it is not for us to judge, you are wrong. The Bible tells us to judge righteous judgement.
When you say we that we do not have criteria to judge, you are wrong. The Bible give clear criteria for many sins.
If you are refering to final judgement, then Jesus has that right. But we are not discussing the judgement of the individual and his soul. We are judging the action.
You should try reading the Bible. It is very enlightening. I suggest the KJV.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
But when a man walks out on his family to have sex with other men, well that’s wrong! And it will always be wrong.
I didn’t “walk out on my family”. Divorce was a mutual decision between my wife and myself. If anything, she felt stronger about the decision than I did. We both realized that the price of being in a mixed orientation marriage was not worth it. As per your modus operandi, you are speaking out of your ass without having any real knowledge of the facts.
Did he want us all to post how brave and heroic he was for doing the wrong thing?
I mean this sincerely: if someone like you were to approve of my actions, I would be seriously concerned about the wisdom of my course. You see, I followed the advice of people like you for 20+ years and it did not produce happiness, peace, or integration. It only produced pain, for myself and my loved ones. Now that I am living with integrity, all of that has been reversed.
If you want to know why I keep harping on my present happiness, it is because YOU keep harping on my present unhappiness (as if you know better than me whether or not I am happy). Stop projecting your religious preferences onto my life, and stop pretending like you know my emotional state better than I do. God, the arrogance is stifling.
[/quote]
Forlife -
I do not know you, but I gather that you are a homosexual. I would like to tell you that I am glad you are happy, but if you are participating in the gay lifestyle, I am not. I would rather see you suffer a life of pain on earth and reap eternity in heaven than see you enjoy life on earth and reap an eternity in hell.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
I would rather see you suffer a life of pain on earth and reap eternity in heaven than see you enjoy life on earth and reap an eternity in hell.
[/quote]
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that being gay will lead to an eternity in hell, please sign me up. Until then, I’ll go with the happiness and peace that I know are real.
If I thought it was a choice, it would be much harder to ‘love’ them. Because how do you love someone that activly and willingly embraces something that is wrong and refuses to attempt to do the right thing?[/quote]
Even if it is a “choice” it is obviously one that they are making because of various environmental stimuli that they were exposed to at a young age.
As far as loving the sinner and hating the sin, I find that fairly easy. If you think about it, no one is perfect. And while homsexuality is a sin, it is no different (better or worse) than any other sin.
Whatever the sin is, we have to first recognize it as such. And then we have to move away from it. We cannot embrace it and attempt to rationalize it. Then we fall deeper into the pit causing all sorts of pain in our lives.
It matters not the sin, they can all be rationalized if you think about it. I know as I have tried to rationalize some of mine in the past. It’s better to face it, deal with it (no matter how difficult) and move on.
Are you really saying that the New Testament ‘washed away’ all of points of contention and problems with the Bible from our perspective today. I don’t think so. Bible scholars, help me out.
[/quote]
I was referring to Levitical law. And those practices which are NOT restated in the New Testament.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Obviously the many things that are clearly stated in the New Testament. And one of those things (among many) is the sin of Homsexuality.
Once again, it is not for us to judge. God will decide individually, whether or not any particular sinner will or will not be accepted.[/quote]
We can never know a mans heart. However, we do “know them by their deeds.” Homosexuality is a sin. And there are many differnet sins that are clearly stated with in the Bible.
If you claim to be a Christian (and I’m not saying anyone is or isn’t) then you at least have to accept that you are sinning and then make every effort to turn away from it.
I agree with this to a certain extent. But you cannot rationalize any sin (like stealing for example) simply because you throw a extra money in the collection plate on Sunday.
We are all capable and in fact called upon to make certain judgements in our lives. Those who simply turn away never make those judgements do not help anyone including themselves!
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
But when a man walks out on his family to have sex with other men, well that’s wrong! And it will always be wrong.
I didn’t “walk out on my family”. Divorce was a mutual decision between my wife and myself. If anything, she felt stronger about the decision than I did. We both realized that the price of being in a mixed orientation marriage was not worth it. As per your modus operandi, you are speaking out of your ass without having any real knowledge of the facts.[/quote]
When you disolve a marraige you are in fact leaving that marriage and the children that you bore while married.
I know you like euphemisms so let’s not call it “walking out.” Let’s call it a nice name. As you stated: “mutual decision.” Either way, another man will take your place and raise your kids, sooner or later. And you will be relegated to the odd parent who left instead of stayed.
As far as “talking out of my ass” I only know what you have told me. From what you have told me you’re wrong.If there is a part of the story that you are withholding that actually makes you look good, I have not heard it yet.
[quote]Did he want us all to post how brave and heroic he was for doing the wrong thing?
I mean this sincerely: if someone like you were to approve of my actions, I would be seriously concerned about the wisdom of my course. [/quote]
Someone like me?
You mean someone who is married with children, and actually stayed to raise them?
Someone who donates their time, energy and finances to help others who are less fortunate?
Someone who attends Church each week?
Oh…that must be the part you hate! Because in a good Church there are rules that you have to follow. And one of those rules is that instead of walking out on your wife and two children and living the life of a homosexual you actually have to stay and do the right thing.
Okay, got it.
You know you have said that probably 4 or 5 times. And for some reason I don’t buy it and I think deep down you don’t even buy it.
No good man (and you are good) walks out on his two young children (5 & 7 Years of age) to engage in homosexual sex with other men, and does not have deep regrets.
And those regrets will be even deeper as the years move on. That’s why you would be wise to at least attempt a reconciliation with your wife.
I only know that those who are actually happy don’t have to constantly say so.
Keep in mind that there is a short term happiness that can be gained by immediate gratification.
Then there is the long term happiness that is derived from doing the right thing over a long period of years.
Are you currently happy? I have no idea, you say you are. I do know that in the long term you will not be happy and in fact probably pretty miserable.
You cannot and will not have long term happiness away from your two children. And you cannot be the father to them you think you can unless you are actually there.
I have seen many guys for one reason or another think that this can be done. Years later they are kicking themselves for their selfish act. By placing their immediate needs first they automatically placed their childrens needs below that.
Someone will walk into your children (and wifes) lives and you will be the odd man out. That is not going to feel very good. But that will only be the beginning of your long term pain, based upon a very wrong minded decision.
[quote]Stop projecting your religious preferences onto my life, and stop pretending like you know my emotional state better than I do. God, the arrogance is stifling.
[/quote]
I don’t think I mentioned “religion” one time did I?
I am talking about a man who walks out on his two young children. That man whatever his religious beliefs is not going to be happy with that decsion down the road.
You chose immediate gratification over long term happiness.
That my opinion sounds arrogant to you is fine with me.
I would rather be arrogant and correct than selfish, lonely and very very sorry in the end for a very bad decision!
[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
I would rather see you suffer a life of pain on earth and reap eternity in heaven than see you enjoy life on earth and reap an eternity in hell.
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that being gay will lead to an eternity in hell, please sign me up. Until then, I’ll go with the happiness and peace that I know are real.[/quote]
Where is the indisputable objective evidence that you would not have been happier with your wife and children than what you are currently participating in?
There is none!
Yet, you are doing it anyway.
Know why?
Because it feels good and gives you short term gratification.
Some men rationalize their sin their entire lives…others face up to it and deal with it.
It’s not to late for you, call your wife right now!
[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
I would rather see you suffer a life of pain on earth and reap eternity in heaven than see you enjoy life on earth and reap an eternity in hell.
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that being gay will lead to an eternity in hell, please sign me up. Until then, I’ll go with the happiness and peace that I know are real.[/quote]
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that living a life apart from God will take you to heaven, please let me know. Until then, a wise person would play it safe.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that living a life apart from God will take you to heaven, please let me know. Until then, a wise person would play it safe.
[/quote]
Play it safe according to whom? Buddha? Jesus? Zeus? Allah? The Goddess Spirit? Santa Claus?
[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that living a life apart from God will take you to heaven, please let me know. Until then, a wise person would play it safe.
Play it safe according to whom? Buddha? Jesus? Zeus? Allah? The Goddess Spirit? Santa Claus?[/quote]
You said that you were once a missionary. Did your homosexual desire drive you this far down the road from your faith?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
The moment you have indisputable objective evidence that living a life apart from God will take you to heaven, please let me know. Until then, a wise person would play it safe.
Play it safe according to whom? Buddha? Jesus? Zeus? Allah? The Goddess Spirit? Santa Claus?
You said that you were once a missionary. Did your homosexual desire drive you this far down the road from your faith?
And some say there is no devil!
[/quote]
Was forelife actually a Christian missionary? Or was he a wolf in sheeps clothing?
Clarification on this would be good because there are some people who take on missionary work just to further their own beliefs. If he was a true Christian Missionary, then he knows who the God of whom I speak is, and he has chosen personal gratification above the God of heaven.
ZEB, I’m still awaiting response to my post below (p.32). Would you really let vroom be right in his response to me?
You should realize that the only way you can claim that there is a scientific evidence that gayness is “bad” (even given that the “facts” presented by you are true) is if you control for factors other than gayness. For example, let’s allow gay marriage, introduce very strong anti-discriminatory policies and give it some time. If in a generation time the happiness of gays did not increase, you might claim that their lifestyle is destructive. Not before that.
To re-iterate - imagine yourself living and not being able to freely express your love towards women and not being able to marry the woman you love. Think about how you life would turn out in that case.
[quote]skor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
two thirds of all new AIDS cases are homosexual men?
But what puzzles me is that if the homosexual act and lifestyle are so wonderful why is it that homosexuals have a higher rate of:
STD’s
Suicide
Anxiety
Depression
Most major diseases
[/quote]
[quote]
I haven’t followed the thread closely and this comment might have been made already. But Zeb, I want to say that IF the above facts are true, MOST of them can be explained by the fact that society is NOT accepting of gays and they don’t feel free expressing their sexuality. This leads to stress and anxiety, which leads to depression and possibly other deceases. Also not being able to fully accept themselves, gays engage in riskier sex as sex with a condom can’t “just happen”.
Imagine not being able to express your desire/love for women? Never. Not having “Ass worship threads”, etc. Imagine always having to hide your sexual attraction… Are you sure you would not become anxious and depressed?
Looks like you are confusing cause and effect, though none follow directly from correlation.[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:
Current headline at CNN.com:
16 die in cartoon protests in Nigeria
“How dare you insult the blessed Prophet Mohammed?” protesters in London asked.[/quote]
Um, yea we know that many people do not accept Jesu Christ. Are you claiming to be one of them?
When you think about it who else walked the earth and performed the miracles that he did and also claimed to be God?
Not Buddha, not Mohammed, not any “man” whoever lived.
Interesting that in the Old Testament there are something like 400 predictions of Jesus as the coming savior. Every one of those predictions came to be upon Christ coming to earth and doing exactly what he did.
Yet, people turn away for many reasons. Not the least of these reasons is that they think the doctrine is too difficult. As you cannot continue to embraceyour sin with rationalization and claim to be a Christian. Hence, you must either give up your rationalization of sin or give up your Christianity.
Most go by the way of keeping their sin:
Matthew 7:13-14:
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
How is it in any way correct for a man to leave his wife, two young children and his faith in order to live the life of a homosexual?
