Hey Stellar a lot of us aren’t christian. Those stupid words don’t mean shit to all to us. Should I quote Dr Seus to counter your arguement?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Forlife, I am sure that you are in your kids’ lives. Just not married to their mother, right? Surely much healthier and better for them then the pretense and mockery of a marriage. [/quote]
Yes, my kids and I have a strong bond. I think I’m a better dad now than when I was living a lie. I want to show my kids by example how to embrace life with integrity and courage.
You’re right…I don’t need anyone’s approval and I haven’t sought it. My purpose for sharing my story here is to let other gay men and women know that they can live happy, productive lives by being true to themselves, contrary to the lies and stereotypes being pushed by the religious right.
Funny, but not everyone draws the same interpretations from the writings of MEN that the bible contains.
The truth is that nobody, including you, is precisely sure how the conflicting scriptures in the bible are to be resolved. Alternately, everybody is sure, which amounts to the same thing.
I read into the admonishment against condemning and judging both that we are in fact capable of doing so quite easily, and that in so doing we overstep ourselves.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Funny, but not everyone draws the same interpretations from the writings of MEN that the bible contains.
[/quote]
That’s a totally different issue vroom. I’ll agree that not all Christians agree with the same interpretations on all passages in the Bible, but on judging and condemning, this isn’t the case. Let’s not skip off to another subject just yet. I posted these Biblical passages because YOU kept referring to how Christians ought not to decipher between right and wrong and you develop a strawman. Too bad for you he’s nothing more than ashes now…
[quote]vroom wrote:
The truth is that nobody, including you, is precisely sure how the conflicting scriptures in the bible are to be resolved.
[/quote]
There are no conflicting scriptures in the Bible. Every time I educate you, you label me as being sanctimonious and I don’t appreciate that. Perhaps another Christian can clear your confusion on the matter.
Too bad you can’t interpret my writings either… 
I’m not saying that Christians ought not to decipher or discern between right and wrong.
There is a huge difference between knowing the difference and making a judgment when you see it.
The only thing burning around here appears to be some Christians who have rationalized their behavior based on their distaste for a certain lifestyle.
Quote some more… it will do you no good.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I read into the admonishment against condemning and judging both that we are in fact capable of doing so quite easily, and that in so doing we overstep ourselves.
[/quote]
Yes, humans do judge and condemn, but it’s specifically Christians that keep getting smacked in the face with Christ’s commands by atheists. I’ll admit that I have done my share of judging and condemning in the past but I’ve not done so in this thread. It sounds as if you’re insinuating I did that in this thread which makes me challenge you so that I can be vindiciated of these allegations.
Copy and paste where I judged or condemned any man. It is one thing to say that someone has fallen into sodomy or someone has spoken a lie while it’s quite another to accuse someone of being a sodomite or a liar that will burn in hell. I don’t know anyone’s final disposition but I do know that certain behaviors/actions/thoughts lead us closer to God while others lead us away. If you need scriptural proof of this, simply ask.
Well, yes, of course it is Christians that get smacked in the face with Christ’s commands. That is in essence a perverse definition of Christianity isn’t it?
Anyway, it is late and I shall relent.
However, beware, the need for vindication hints at pride, but as I said, I shall relent. It is possible I have mistaken your tepid statements on this issue as being in support of Zeb’s, which are quite possibly of a different nature.
I do honestly still question the real motivation behind feeling a need to warn the world of this mystical propaganda though. The answer to my question is in reality between you and your maker.
However, if you will notice, that I am obviously annoying you, perhaps the fact I am slapping you in the face with Christ’s commands is the cause. Perhaps non-Christian’s feel the same way when Christian’s slap them in the face with Christ’s commands.
Good night.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Hey Stellar a lot of us aren’t christian. Those stupid words don’t mean shit to all to us. Should I quote Dr Seus to counter your arguement
[/quote]
You were the one who said in the atheist thread that you never opened up a Bible. You were the one who had a fit when I reported that the Jews crucified Jesus Christ. So why try to envelop yourself with arguments against Christianity if you don’t even know the basic rudiments about the Faith to begin with? You should be thanking me for posting the Biblical passages on judgment since I’m providing insight you don’t possess but clearly attempt to involve yourself in a discussion [b]about[/b].
I realize that not everyone here is a Christian. I also realize that some people here will mock the Christian Faith (like you), demean the scriptures as nonsense (like you) and that some would prefer that all religion besides atheism be censored (like you). Unfortunately for you, that’s not an option I have.
And for the record, the passages were posted to exhibit how Christians judge (in other words to distinguish, discern, or support a perspective) of what’s virtuous and righteous versus what’s sinful and estranges man from God.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Too bad you can’t interpret my writings either…
I’m not saying that Christians ought not to decipher or discern between right and wrong.
There is a huge difference between knowing the difference and making a judgment when you see it.
The only thing burning around here appears to be some Christians who have rationalized their behavior based on their distaste for a certain lifestyle.
Quote some more… it will do you no good.
[/quote]
vroom, why are you being so difficult? According to the Bible and the Christian Faith, is homosexuality right or wrong?
Here’s where you appropriately say: It’s wrong.
It vexes me that you’re trying to tell Christians that our speaking out against homosexuality is a form of judgment and condemnation. A simple Christian dogma is love the sinner, hate the sin. There’s nothing more to tell you on the matter.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Wow, looks like he told them to follow the way of the Lord. Leaving them in ther autonomy and wisdom to determine what that was. Rather than giving specific instructions of what they should or should not be doing.
[/quote]
The way of the Lord was known to the Jews as they had been blessed with prophets like Moses who left them God’s laws, whether verbal or written including but not limited to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, etc. Regarding the autonomy of finer aspects, whom God calls, He equips. God blessed these ordained judges to govern the Jewish flock. They were given authority to discern between sinfulness and righteousness as is the case with Christ’s Apostles and His Church.
jsbrook wrote:[quote]
Stop saying peace be with you. It’s false and sanctimonious and hardly rings true when you say it. That’s bullshit.[/quote]
Professor X wrote:[quote]
I have stated the same thing early on. It is as if he has convinced himself that it is an honest statement and that everyone else is too blind to see his intention. If his true goal was “peace”, he would be more willing to accept others regardless of the choices they make, even if he doesn’t agree with them.
[/quote]
You know what Professor X? I don’t see you smiting anyone else when they call others @ssholes, bitches, retards, etc. on this thread. I haven’t done any of that but you’d have me crucified for my signature phrase of [b]peace be with you[/b] which I’ve been using on this site for the last few years. All of sudden you know that my salutation is fake (as if you’re God). And you’re trying to school me on the fallacies of judging others? Then you question if my true goal is one of “peace”.
Thanks for not judging me Professor X. Thanks for accepting the decisions that I’ve made regardless if you agree with them. Note the sarcasm.
When you vocalized the fact that you preferred not to be addressed or saluted with the phrase peace be with you, I complied. Initially I said to myself, “who the heck is this guy telling me how I shouldn’t be ending my posts”, but for the sake of compromise and keeping the harmony as in tact as possible, I complied. For all you know, when I say the phrase, I genuinely mean it. Maybe I pray for you and others on this thread. Maybe I actually DO want peace but not if it comes at the compromise of the Gospel and salvation.
The Prince of peace, Jesus Christ, said He came not to bring peace but a sword. For there would be divisions between Christians and non-believers. Peace on earth isn’t the end goal though. Salvation (which radiates peace and joy) is the Christian’s goal.
If you choose to compromise the teachings of the Christian Faith for the sake of peace on earth, or for the world’s applause, or for being accepting because of a false sense of chivalry, then that’s your decision. The devout Christian’s mission, however, does not compromise the teachings of the Bible and the Church.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
If you choose to compromise the teachings of the Christian Faith for the sake of peace on earth, or for the world’s applause, or for being accepting because of a false sense of chivalry, then that’s your decision. The devout Christian’s mission, however, does not compromise the teachings of the Bible and the Church.[/quote]
I will second this statement. Unfortunately too many Christian are not true born again believers. They are part of Christianity because they have been born into it, or married into it, or passively chose it.
In the context you refer to, the devout believer is the one who is born again by faith in Christ alone, and is strong in his/her faith. If we could all be so strong great things would happen to our nation. As it stands now, greatness is far off.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
Hey Stellar a lot of us aren’t christian. Those stupid words don’t mean shit to all to us. Should I quote Dr Seus to counter your arguement
You were the one who said in the atheist thread that you never opened up a Bible. You were the one who had a fit when I reported that the Jews crucified Jesus Christ. So why try to envelop yourself with arguments against Christianity if you don’t even know the basic rudiments about the Faith to begin with? You should be thanking me for posting the Biblical passages on judgment since I’m providing insight you don’t possess but clearly attempt to involve yourself in a discussion [b]about[/b].
I realize that not everyone here is a Christian. I also realize that some people here will mock the Christian Faith (like you), demean the scriptures as nonsense (like you) and that some would prefer that all religion besides atheism be censored (like you). Unfortunately for you, that’s not an option I have.
And for the record, the passages were posted to exhibit how Christians judge (in other words to distinguish, discern, or support a perspective) of what’s virtuous and righteous versus what’s sinful and estranges man from God.
[/quote]
Listen, the words I now write are not written out of anger. Do not mistake my tone.
You christians have to humble youselves and think of your history before you speak. Christianity has a long history of intolerance that would defanitely disgust Jesus if he were alive today. The opinions of homosexuals held by you all are contrary to what Jesus preached. Do you really think he would take issue with a large group of people in the manner you guys have in this thread? Just because I havn’t read the bible doesn’t mean that I am not familiar with your religion.
Zeb’s opinions are based purely on religion. The literature and statistics he quotes are just an attempt to legitamize them. If he wasn’t a christian he would not take such a stand against their lifestyle unless he were a bigot. That is what annoys me the most about you christians. Your persistance in pushing your way of life on others. It is just a mild incarnation of the spanish inquisition, the crusades, and the christian imposed limitations on science and thought that go back many centuries. If you truly love your fellow man than you should be open to the choices that others make. What do you think Jesus would prefer: every person being forcely converted to christianity or people of every different race and religion living in harmony. Zeb spoke of conditioning gays to not be able to act on their own will.
This would be a torturous way to live. Just think if you couldn’t be with women even if you wanted to. It would be hell. There is no reason someone should have to do that just because their way of life differs from yours. It is only because of one statement from the bible that you christians take issue with gays. Just think of all the words of Jesus that your dislike for gays contradicts. One statement, and you forget the basic principles of Jesus’s teachings. You can’t hate homosexuality without hating homosexuals. Remember, LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
There are things that are wrong and there are things that are right according to God’s standards. Some people here seem to be putting up a smoke screen about this truth though.
I can’t condemn anyone, as I know what the true meaning of judgment is, but at the same time, I condemn certain acts because I know that God has specified that they are contrary to His commands. I can’t judge anyone in this sense, but I can tell them, Hey dude, you’re living contrary to God’s moral code. That’s not hate, that’s not judging. People here have this concept wildly confused. [/quote]
Very nice post Stellar.
“Wildly confused” is a good way to put it.
The PC police have convinced everyone that there really is no right and wrong.
But when a man walks out on his family to have sex with other men, well that’s wrong! And it will always be wrong.
Furthermore, he joined a debate regarding homosexuality knowing that there were strong opinions on both sides. He then let spill the details of his life. Did he want us all to post how brave and heroic he was for doing the wrong thing?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Yes, my kids and I have a strong bond. I think I’m a better dad now than when I was living a lie. I want to show my kids by example how to embrace life with integrity and courage.[/quote]
Well, when you were “living a lie” you were there to tuck in your daughter at night. And she was pretty dang happy about that and very sad (according to you) when she knew that you wouldn’t be doing that anymore.
Yea, nothing can replace “being there.” The things that you have chosen over your children will mean leass and less as the years go past. And the things that you have missed in your childrens lives will be irreplaceable!
But you are correct on one thing, you sure are “showing your kids an example.” Unfortunately, it’s the wrong one!
By the way excellent use of euphemisms. I wonder how much they will mean 10 to 20 years down the road when you are full of regret?
It’s not to late (currently) to do the right thing.
And my purpose for posting here is to let gay men (especially young gay men) know that there is a way out and that you can find it if you want!
You can have a better life than what you are leading. But you have to actually want it badly enough.
Change is possible! And thousands have changed.
Just take a look at this finding from only one study:
"One surprising discovery was that 67% of the men who had rarely or never felt any opposite-sex attraction before the change effort, now report significant heterosexual attraction. Even those whose orientation did not change – but who gave up homosexual behavior – experienced a significant improvement in emotional health.
Those who wonder why the mental health of homsexuals is being harmed need not look any further than what they are doing to themselves!
Furthermore, forlife apparently had, at least at one point, opposite sex attraction in order to father two children.
Why is it that 87% of homosexual men have stated that they have had sex with someone of the opposite sex?
How many purely heterosexual men are even able to have sex with someone of the same sex?
Hopefully the whole “they were born that way” lie has been exposed as well.
Further significant facts:
“Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child. (p. 9)”
The earlier that you seek therapy the better the chances of success.
"Cappon, D., Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
If you have bisexual tendencies it is clear that your chances of success are very good.
And it seems that just about 87% of all “homosexuals” do indeed have bisexual tendensices.
It makes me wonder how much homosexuality would really be prevelant if the powerful gay lobbies and the politically correct had not spread the various lies that prevail in today’s society.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
You can’t hate homosexuality without hating homosexuals. Remember, LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR.
[/quote]
Not only CAN you do that, but that is exactly what Christians are called to do!
If you had a brother who had two kids but was cheating on his wife with the cocktail waitress down the street would you not at least try to correct that behavior?
Do you do this because you hate him, or because you love him?
[quote]vroom, why are you being so difficult? According to the Bible and the Christian Faith, is homosexuality right or wrong?
Here’s where you appropriately say: It’s wrong.
It vexes me that you’re trying to tell Christians that our speaking out against homosexuality is a form of judgment and condemnation. A simple Christian dogma is love the sinner, hate the sin. There’s nothing more to tell you on the matter. [/quote]
Good morning Stellar,
This is where you run into interpretation issues. Of course, the bible in places speaks against it.
However, it speaks against many things and society ignores those things. For example, selection of foods and treatment of women.
If we are allowed to interpret some of the passages as very out of date and no longer important, what, other than distaste, is causing you to maintain some others? Who decides which is and is not important?
Do you feel the bible is a literal commandment of behavior, which is true for all time, or that it consists of stories of varying applicability which need to be interpreted with the growing capabilities of mankind?
[quote]vroom wrote:
vroom, why are you being so difficult? According to the Bible and the Christian Faith, is homosexuality right or wrong?
Here’s where you appropriately say: It’s wrong.
It vexes me that you’re trying to tell Christians that our speaking out against homosexuality is a form of judgment and condemnation. A simple Christian dogma is love the sinner, hate the sin. There’s nothing more to tell you on the matter.
Good morning Stellar,
This is where you run into interpretation issues. Of course, the bible in places speaks against it.
However, it speaks against many things and society ignores those things. For example, selection of foods and treatment of women.
If we are allowed to interpret some of the passages as very out of date and no longer important, what, other than distaste, is causing you to maintain some others? Who decides which is and is not important?
Do you feel the bible is a literal commandment of behavior, which is true for all time, or that it consists of stories of varying applicability which need to be interpreted with the growing capabilities of mankind?[/quote]
vroom,
Some of the confusion comes because of Old Testament beliefs mainly “Lecitical law”. They were there for various reasons, some health believe it or not.
However, when Christ came some of that stuff was washed away. What didn’t get “washed away?”
Obviously the many things that are clearly stated in the New Testament. And one of those things (among many) is the sin of Homsexuality.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
You can’t hate homosexuality without hating homosexuals. Remember, LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR.
Not only CAN you do that, but that is exactly what Christians are called to do!
If you had a brother who had two kids but was cheating on his wife with the cocktail waitress down the street would you not at least try to correct that behavior?
Do you do this because you hate him, or because you love him?
[/quote]
I don’t know about that. I in fact agree with you that you can hate or at least disapprove of homosexuality without hating the homosexual. But I think at some point, it becomes impossible to separate the action from the person.
I would have a hard time not hating the cold and callous career murderer/bounty hunter who chooses to kill for profit. Not do I think they necessarily should be loved.
I think your analysis of choice in homosexuality comes into play though. I do not believe that homosexuality is a choice though I do agree ennvironmental influences come into play in a way we don’t yet fully understand and have not been able to reverse.
I choose to believe the body of research, included in but not limited the so-called biased APA. Rather then a single, unreplicated study. As well as all the gay people who say that it is something they can not control.
I do not think they are in some mass conspiracy and choosing not to make the effort to ‘become’ straight with their end goal to be mocked, ridiculed, be denied rights, and until recently, being the very likely subjects of violence.
If I thought it was a choice, it would be much harder to ‘love’ them. Because how do you love someone that activly and willingly embraces something that is wrong and refuses to attempt to do the right thing?