Brokeback Propaganda

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]vroom wrote wrote:
Who’s touting them as heros? It’s a freaking movie.

Oh, you mean the actors personally or something? That’s real life, which is not the same thing as the movie.

Get with it man.
[/quote]
vroom, I went to one of the best universities in the nation but I don’t need a degree to help me realize that the film wasn’t a documentary. You ask who’s touting the characters as heroes? Society. The media. The critics. There’s no need for you to play stupid.

http://www.film-forward.com/brokebac.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/wittig200512210837.asp

The glamour endowed upon these characters is unbelievable - and all because of their sexual preference. Google “heroes” with the name of the film and you’ll see what I mean.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ever seen the movie Heat? They held double lives. They destroyed their families and abandoned their children. They even…GASP…lied. It was one really great movie. Every actor in it is considered a “decent” actor. I am not sure if it won awards or not, but it should have. You don’t have a point.

MANY movies are based on people of questionable backgrounds and many movies include characters that have many of the attributes you just listed. That is what makes the story intriguing because the characters are abnormal. Who would really find a movie interesting if there was no conflict? How retarded would it be if every movie released from now on needed to pass the approval of people like you?

No more bank robberies, sex out of wed lock…hell, sex period. No more people who cheat on their wives, no more grand thefts. No more bad guys who turn out to be the hero, no more Chronicles of Riddick. I am glad you are not in charge of this and I hope your crusade against liars in movies turns to shit. Some of the greatest movie characters have been those that weren’t the greatest people. It is just a movie…and everyone else realizes this, except you.
[/quote]
Professor X, you’re completely misunderstanding the core essence of my posts, hence your confusion. Heat didn’t receive any discussion or publicity on a moral or ethical basis. The characters therein lied, stole, fornicated, and killed. I didn’t see the New York Times, major magazines, or movie critics reviewing and applauding the philosophical undertones of the film’s characters though.

Why? Because it was a film that revolved around a handful of popular actors engaging in supercharged gun battles, sex, scandal, and interpersonal conflicts (similar in some elements to Brokeback Mountain)… But did you come across even one commentary by a news publication rationally analyzing and defending Val Kilmer or Robert Deniro’s delinquent roles in the film?

I found this movie enjoyable, but to classify characters like Wayne Growle as heroes is preposterous. The guy solicits the services of a whore and then butchers her. It takes very little discernment to label his actions grotesque and irreputable. That’s essentially my point - that the characters in Brokeback Mountain are hailed as heroes despite the fact that they partook in a host of unwholesome and shameful deeds; while society, the media, and the critics glamourize them - on what grounds, sexual preference? That is what amazes me the most.

It’s one thing for a newspaper column to cite an actor’s performance, or the ability for a film to have braced fans on the edge of their seats, but the verbal stir surrounding the two gay characters in Brokeback Mountain dabbles beyond such superficial comparison.

Heat didn’t evoke magnificent reactions from society, it didn’t ignite complex, thought-provoking discussion beyond the doors of the theater; hence it was anything BUT controversial. Your comparison is weak at best.

Ok, so Hollywood put out a film about homosexual romance - not that I approve, but this was bound to happen sooner or later given the recent decline of religious values in this country. What surprises me is our society’s reaction - the evident creation of a double standard and the deep penetrating psychological implications. I hope you see by now my qualms are not with the movie but with society’s dumbfounded trance-like state. To be fair though, it needs to be emphasized that propaganda has precisely this numbing effect.

And Professor X, on another note, I noticed you seem to be quite radical in your notions against me. I never claimed that all movies should be kosher and saintly, drab, or unintriguing. The world doesn’t rotate around stellar_horizon (and I’m perfectly cool with that) nor am I involved in a “crusade against liars” - that’s strictly for God’s wrath to resolve. We can debate like civilized individuals or we can get personal and sling inaccurate, off-base extrapolations about each other. You write decently so I would think there’d be no need for you to resort to condescending remarks.

182

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Professor X, you’re completely misunderstanding the core essence of my posts, hence your confusion. Heat didn’t receive any discussion or publicity on a moral or ethical basis. The characters therein lied, stole, fornicated, and killed. I didn’t see the New York Times, major magazines, or movie critics reviewing and applauding the philosophical undertones of the film’s characters though.
[/quote]

What don’t you get? Gayness isn’t new. It didn’t just pop up over the last few years. That alone should indicate something to you, however, I am afraid it won’t. Here is something for your mind to ponder in between quoting “anti-gay” stances to me. Do you or do you not think that society pressures gay people to be straight? If you allow your intellect that much room, how much of a stretch is it to assume that some of them have even gotten married in spite of their “tendencies” if for no other reason than to be considered “normal”? That alone is why some of those actions are being discussed beyond running around blindly and acting like anyone is applauding the simple act of cheating on a wife. Acknowledging that this act is not the first time view in films should tell you something. If no one applauded the action in HEAT, then the only reason it is discussed now is because of the social implications mentioned above.

Further, who has called them “heroes” and why is so much of your time being spent even following the hype surrounding this movie? This is the most I have heard of Brokeback Mountain…here on this forum. I don’t care at all to go searching for news headlines about it and I never watch the Oscars anyway. I consider that one step away from a freaking Mrs. America contest.

I personally think there is some indication of psychological leaning towards that state if someone is so focused on who is gay and who isn’t. This movie is not bringing down America. This movie is not the signaling of the end of mankind. If anything, the current events surrounding a cartoon in relation to the Muslim world may be the soul indicator of that. It makes me wonder why a grown man would dedicate so much time to a movie he NEVER EVEN SAW. If you don’t see the problem there, I suppose it is simply too late for you.

183

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
What the Church says and the bible says are very different things. A few of the earlier saints were pretty anti-sex (and misogynistic). The church held the position that obtaining pleasure from sex (or in general) was bad, but a necessary evil for procreation. The solution was to have sex as little as possible, and to not enjoy it.
[/quote]
In the Orthodox Christian Church, sex was never viewed as “a necessary evil”. It was always understood that it’s better to remain celibate than getting married (that is, for him/her that wishes to devote their entire life to God to enter into a monastery or convent rather than deal with a spouse and be tangled up with worldly affairs and obligations).

For he/she that can not overcome their passions of lust, marriage is strongly recommended so that the two persons can come together under God’s blessing. Under this union, the man and woman can fulfill their physical desires (meaning the sanctioned ones) and procreate so as to establish a family which becomes an archetype of the Church.

I don’t know what “Church” you’re referring to but you’ve preached heresy and I hope nobody’s been mislead by your statements. If you know the saints who were “pretty anti-sex” (whatever that means), I’m kindly asking you to name them as well as the manuscripts they developed which correlate with your idealogy. I also advise you go backtrack and read both of Saint Paul’s epistles to the Corinthians.

Peace be with you.

184

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It makes me wonder why a grown man would dedicate so much time to a movie he NEVER EVEN SAW. If you don’t see the problem there, I suppose it is simply too late for you.
[/quote]
I’ve never been to war. I’ve never been to the Middle East. I don’t even know one single person who’s served in Iraq but I read, hear & watch the news from reporters on the frontlines who personally bear witness and experience a small fraction of what’s taking place. I don’t actually need to experience the war in Iraq to be bothered by it. It has me pondering what’s next. Are we going after Iran? How will Europe react? What does this mean for the next generation of our American lads? What impact will the continued warfare have upon the economy? Is there anything I can do to help the situation?

Viola! Hopefully you get the gist and clear up some more of your own confusion.

I think a lot. If you consider me hopeless because of that, then we’ve been debating on two dramatically different wavelengths.

185

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It makes me wonder why a grown man would dedicate so much time to a movie he NEVER EVEN SAW. If you don’t see the problem there, I suppose it is simply too late for you.

I’ve never been to war. I’ve never been to the Middle East. I don’t even know one single person who’s served in Iraq but I read, hear & watch the news from reporters on the frontlines who personally bear witness and experience a small fraction of what’s taking place. I don’t actually need to experience the war in Iraq to be bothered by it. It has me pondering what’s next. Are we going after Iran? How will Europe react? What does this mean for the next generation of our American lads? What impact will the continued warfare have upon the economy? Is there anything I can do to help the situation?

Viola! Hopefully you get the gist and clear up some more of your own confusion.

I think a lot. If you consider me hopeless because of that, then we’ve been debating on two dramatically different wavelengths.[/quote]

So, trying to degrade a movie you never even saw by claiming it is propoganda is just you thinking outloud? Are there people suddenly becoming gay because of this movie? What are you afraid of? That gay people might be treated like humans through the discussion of this issue? How does Brokeback Mountain relate directly to The War In Iraq?

186

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Here is something for your mind to ponder in between quoting “anti-gay” stances to me. Do you or do you not think that society pressures gay people to be straight? If you allow your intellect that much room, how much of a stretch is it to assume that some of them have even gotten married in spite of their “tendencies” if for no other reason than to be considered “normal”? That alone is why some of those actions are being discussed beyond running around blindly and acting like anyone is applauding the simple act of cheating on a wife.
[/quote]
#1 I haven’t quoted anti-gay stances per se other than simple, non-offensive phrases which specify that I don’t approve of homosexuality. Don’t make it sound as if my focus in this thread is on homosexuality though. To add to that, stop trying to psychoanalyze me and inferring that I must be gay because I’m still posting on this thread. I see things through and since I started this thread, I’m taking the responsibility of intermittently participating in it.

#2 I think certain societies pressure people to be straight while others do not. It depends which society you’re indicating. I come from one of the biggest cities in the world. In college, there was a homosexual club on campus that people joined simply because it was “the cool thing to do”. As another example, if you travel to the island of Mykonos in Greece, a high percentage of the populous is homosexual. The same applies to Greenwich Village in NYC. According to the Discovery Channel in India, during the Hindu festival of the monkey god, the straight men commit anal sex with other straight men in the villages for an entire day. It obviously depends.

#3 So as I understand it, you can justify the fact that a homosexual man marries a woman, has children, and abandons them after 20 years because he’s finally gained the courage to come out of the closet?

In my opinion that’s selfish, disrespectful, and dishonorable. You don’t tie someone down for 20 years if you can’t proclaim your vows and mean 'em with all your heart. It seems me and you have different values (and that’s ok). Heaven forbid I marry a woman who’s got yours though!

187

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:

#3 So as I understand it, you can justify the fact that a homosexual man marries a woman, has children, and abandons them after 20 years because he’s finally gained the courage to come out of the closet? [/quote]

Are you retarded? WHO in this thread, on tv or anywhere has said, “cheating on your wife is great!”? No one is writing this, yet that didn’t stop you from pretending, did it? Cheating on your spouse is wrong. Being forced to pretend you are something that you aren’t just to be treated equally is also wrong. Do you get it now? I don’t claim to have “gay issues” understood completely, but to pretend as if there would be no significant psychological issues involved with someone being “confused” about orientation is just blind. The question you should be asking, is why a gay person would feel the need to “act straight”.

[quote]
In my opinion that’s selfish, disrespectful, and dishonorable. You don’t tie someone down for 20 years if you can’t proclaim your vows and mean 'em with all your heart. It seems me and you have different values (and that’s ok). Heaven forbid I marry a woman who’s got yours though![/quote]

This statement was pointless. You come across as quite foolish. My guess is, life will be much rougher for you.

188

If They came out they would just die.

At that time the thing to do was to get married.

Are the characters twisted fuckers?
Yes!

Would you do the same to survive?
I guess so.

The best comment that I 'v eseen about this movies comes from this actress that was unemployed, sick and alone during the winter in Canada; she said:
“–After reading this book I’m happy that I don’t live in Wyoming!”

189

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Here is something for your mind to ponder in between quoting “anti-gay” stances to me. Do you or do you not think that society pressures gay people to be straight? If you allow your intellect that much room, how much of a stretch is it to assume that some of them have even gotten married in spite of their “tendencies” if for no other reason than to be considered “normal”? That alone is why some of those actions are being discussed beyond running around blindly and acting like anyone is applauding the simple act of cheating on a wife.

#1 I haven’t quoted anti-gay stances per se other than simple, non-offensive phrases which specify that I don’t approve of homosexuality. Don’t make it sound as if my focus in this thread is on homosexuality though. To add to that, stop trying to psychoanalyze me and inferring that I must be gay because I’m still posting on this thread. I see things through and since I started this thread, I’m taking the responsibility of intermittently participating in it.

#2 I think certain societies pressure people to be straight while others do not. It depends which society you’re indicating. I come from one of the biggest cities in the world. In college, there was a homosexual club on campus that people joined simply because it was “the cool thing to do”. As another example, if you travel to the island of Mykonos in Greece, a high percentage of the populous is homosexual. The same applies to Greenwich Village in NYC. According to the Discovery Channel in India, during the Hindu festival of the monkey god, the straight men commit anal sex with other straight men in the villages for an entire day. It obviously depends.

#3 So as I understand it, you can justify the fact that a homosexual man marries a woman, has children, and abandons them after 20 years because he’s finally gained the courage to come out of the closet?

In my opinion that’s selfish, disrespectful, and dishonorable. You don’t tie someone down for 20 years if you can’t proclaim your vows and mean 'em with all your heart. It seems me and you have different values (and that’s ok). Heaven forbid I marry a woman who’s got yours though![/quote]

So are YOU gay or not?

A yes or no answer is enough.

w

190

what a ridiculous thing to be getting upset about

191

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How does Brokeback Mountain relate directly to The War In Iraq?
[/quote]
It doesn’t relate - it’s just an analogy! I posted about Iraq to show that although I haven’t seen the movie, likewise I haven’t been to Iraq. But I’m still guided by credible information (from Dr. Winfield, internet publications, & fellow posters as well as CNN, the NY Times & FOX 5) to ascertain information on contemporary trends/matters/crises/situations involving this country.

I can be concerned about something regardless of whether it’s emitting an impact on me at the present time. I also have the capacity to fret for tomorrow’s generation because they’ll have to endure through today’s mistakes. Look at Social Security. No problems now - but everyone’s worrying about their benefits later; I’m applying the same mechanism with the way people prepare for various stigmas today.

I’m straight as an arrow and I’m not homophobic. But that doesn’t mean I ought to just sit back and keep quiet when Hollywood tries to prime unsuspecting audiences with secret agendas.

Here’s a question for you Professor X. You keep hassling me about the fact that I haven’t seen the movie as though I’m not qualified or as if I don’t deserve the right to be discussing second hand sources of information on the matter. Applying your own standards, isn’t that being hypocritical of you since you haven’t seen it either? Why are you still on this thread?

Mimicking you…
“I think there’s something psychologically deficient about a grown man who defends a movie he hasn’t even seen.”

192

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
I can be concerned about something regardless of whether it’s emitting an impact on me at the present time. [/quote]

Why are you concerned?

[quote]
I also have the capacity to fret for tomorrow’s generation because they’ll have to endure through today’s mistakes. Look at Social Security. No problems now - but everyone’s worrying about their benefits later; I’m applying the same mechanism with the way people prepare for various stigmas today. [/quote]

You mean, stigma’s like “gay hate crimes”?

[quote]
I’m straight as an arrow and I’m not homophobic. But that doesn’t mean I ought to just sit back and keep quiet when Hollywood tries to prime unsuspecting audiences with secret agendas.[/quote]

What agenda? To turn straight people gay? Did it work? To make society accept gay people? The horror.

[quote]
Here’s a question for you Professor X. You keep hassling me about the fact that I haven’t seen the movie as though I’m not qualified or as if I don’t deserve the right to be discussing second hand sources of information on the matter. Applying your own standards, isn’t that being hypocritical of you since you haven’t seen it either? Why are you still on this thread?[/quote]

I have never claimed to know what this movie is portraying exactly. I am only going off of what you write. Nowhere have I given a judgement on the merits of this movie. That act is committed by you alone.

[quote]
Mimicking you…
“I think there’s something psychologically deficient about a grown man who defends a movie he hasn’t even seen.”[/quote]

I could care less about the movie, but I will definitely defend its right to be made and to be shown in theaters that choose to play it. That is what America stands for and what I personally fight and took an oath for. Why would you be against this?

193

Religious intolerance…

194

Stelar horizon, are you gay or not?

What makes you and specialist in gay issues?

If you’re not gay why are you so interested in the subject instead of vaginas?

Some clarification would be appreciated.

w

195

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
What the Church says and the bible says are very different things. A few of the earlier saints were pretty anti-sex (and misogynistic). The church held the position that obtaining pleasure from sex (or in general) was bad, but a necessary evil for procreation. The solution was to have sex as little as possible, and to not enjoy it.

In the Orthodox Christian Church, sex was never viewed as “a necessary evil”. It was always understood that it’s better to remain celibate than getting married (that is, for him/her that wishes to devote their entire life to God to enter into a monastery or convent rather than deal with a spouse and be tangled up with worldly affairs and obligations).

For he/she that can not overcome their passions of lust, marriage is strongly recommended so that the two persons can come together under God’s blessing. Under this union, the man and woman can fulfill their physical desires (meaning the sanctioned ones) and procreate so as to establish a family which becomes an archetype of the Church.

I don’t know what “Church” you’re referring to but you’ve preached heresy and I hope nobody’s been mislead by your statements. If you know the saints who were “pretty anti-sex” (whatever that means), I’m kindly asking you to name them as well as the manuscripts they developed which correlate with your idealogy. I also advise you go backtrack and read both of Saint Paul’s epistles to the Corinthians.

Peace be with you.

[/quote]

The church I am referring to is the Catholic church. I never said sex was viewed as a necessary evil, I said obtaining pleasure from sex was,and those are very different things. Pretty anti-sex means having a negative attitude towards sex, ranging from moderate to severe. This includes things such as viewing it as dirty, sinful, impure, and undesirable.

For a good (or at least interesting) review, reference Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven by Uta Ranke-Heinemann.

196

The fact that he is not answering the question could only mean two things.

1: He is gay and can’t admit it here because of friends that don’t know yet.

2: He is bi and not sure if he is gay or not.

Then there is the wonderful gay rumor that they themselves put out. “If you don’t like gays, then you must be one!” Kind of like when we was kids and you smelled a fart, “He who smelt it is he who delt it.” So we kept our mouths shut when we got whiff of a fart. In the same way, it became a sign of being gay if you don’t like them.

I don’t like radical muslims. I talk about them, I make fun of them, and I may even be slightly racist against them. Does that mean that I am a radical Muslim? Should I abandon all pork products? Should I change my name to Mustaffa Hasseed AlFatasso?

Brokeback would never get an Oscar nod if it was a guy and a girl. It would never get more then 500 ticket sales.

It’s going to win every nomination because of the gays in the industry.

197

[quote]Fat Tony wrote:

[…]

Brokeback would never get an Oscar nod if it was a guy and a girl. It would never get more then 500 ticket sales.
[/quote]

I think you are wrong here - almost every Ang Lee movie (also the ones that were about heterosexual people) has been a success with the critics:

Eat Drink Man Woman (1994): Best Foreign Film Oscar nomination

Sense and Sensibility (1995): Best Picture Oscar nomination, won Best Adapted Screenplay and Lead Actress. Also voted the year’s Best Director by the National Board of Review and the New York Film Critics Circle.

The Ice Storm (1997): Best Screenplay at Cannes

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (2000): Best Foreign Language Film, as well as Best Director at the Golden Globes, and became the highest grossing foreign-language film ever released in America.

Ang Lee makes complex movies on emotional and gender-related problems. Some of them feature homosexual characters, some don’t. They all were pretty successful with audiences and critics.

Just having clarified that it will be successful, because Ang Lee just makes one successful movie after another, I would argue that it’s only getting flack here because it features homosexual characters in a positive way.

Wait, what was the word for that attitude…?

Makkun

198

stellar horizon.

you writte so much and can’t answer a simple question using only 3 letters.

Are you gay or not?

warlock

199

stellar_horizon

I’m not trying to pick a fight here, I just want to know who this guy is - his educational and professional background - and where the article is from. Both of these things will do well to inform myself and others of where he is coming from as far as his worldview is concerned (beyond the obvious issue of homosexuality). Having this knowledge will also make the formation of opinion on Dr. Winfield’s assertions easier and more informed. Having a knowledge of the broad spectrum of ideas and those worldviews and other viewpoints that inform those ideas undoubtedly helps one discern those that are consistent with their own contentions.

I am sidestepping most of the issues that you and Dr. Winfield have raised as I am not particularly concerned by them. The only comments I have made beyond seeking the aforemention information with respect to Dr. Winfield and his article was to answer one question that had no relation to the issues of homosexuality (those presently of contention), and to give my observation as someone who works in the film industry that profit is very much the driving factor behind many of the production decisions that are made, rather than some vast gay conspiracy that some are alleging.

200

[quote]warlock wrote:
stellar horizon.

you writte so much and can’t answer a simple question using only 3 letters.

Are you gay or not?

warlock[/quote]

Either you have selective reading powers or you’re skimming through my posts. I already stated that I’m straight as an arrow. I have nothing personal against homosxeuals. I do not hate them, nor would I ever participate in a hate crime against them. If I saw a homosexual being beaten as part of a hate crime, I would intervene to defend their physical welfare. My Christian Faith teaches that we are to love the person but hate the sin.

Often times, what I believe and what society believes conflict, but I’m fine with that. God’s laws are much stricter than the laws of our society. Professor X and some others here are trying to make it appear as though I’m on a “crusade” against free speech and that I’m encouraging film censorship - that’s ludicrous! I fully support the first amendment (and I believe the rest of you do too), so why are you guys taking my stance to the extremes? I never said the movie didn’t have the right to be produced, or that it was going to make anyone gay. I simply wanted to alarm people that the film involved propaganda (as do many other films). I find it comical that some of you are diving off the deep end and classifying me as gay because of this.

Other T-Nation members have told me that it’s a waste of time trying to have an intellectual dialogue on such a complex matter because people feel the need to launch personal attacks when their finite rationale is questioned, evidently they’re correct.