Bringing Kids to Church

Off Topic
21

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I say everyone should pick their own religion. Any parent who tries to force religion on their kid should be castrated.

Joe84, the way you’ve learnt about your religion seems to be the ideal way.[/quote]

I’m sure you were employing hyperbole in your choice of words.

Should parents who “force” morals on their children be castrated? How about parents who “force” good eating habits and exercise? How about parents who “force” disciplined study habits in school? After all, a child (who is infinitely wiser than his parents) should be able to decide their own morals, the ingestion of nothing but sugary treats and playing Nintendo all the time without the horrible intervention of their parents.

Do you have children?

jpb

22

[quote]shizen wrote:
Makavali wrote:
shizen wrote:
how is it bad to be ‘forced’ to fit in with your community. If everyone you know is a certain religion growing up, as well as all your relatives your saying that you should force the kid to not fit in. This is how we end up with agnostic emo/antisocial teens who are idiots.

Most of them rebel. My parents never forced religion on me, I was allowed to make my own decision. And AFAIK, I’m not an emo.

Parents who have the idea of ‘do whatever you want’ have kids who rebel since they have no order. You sound just like the above description of what I was talking about. [/quote]

Bullshit.

To imply that raising a kid without the background of a church or religion will invariably lead them astray presents a false dichotomy(either, or), ex. “You’re either raised as a good Christian or an irresponsible, godless atheist”. The truth is, while some examples may exist of secular families who raise irresponsible idiots, it does not follow that this is due to lack of religion. I am a firm believer that there exists no “one size fits all” approach to raising a healthy child.

23

[quote]whoami wrote:

I do not resent mormons or mormonism in general. I do believe that all organized religion may potentially limit free thinking and smother creativity, but I certainly will not judge the merits of a whole religion based on the actions of one individual.[/quote]
Galileo: Held to Christian beliefs.
Most Founding Fathers of America: Held to basic Christian beliefs, wrote the Constitution based on the Bible’s moral compass.

Would you say religion limited their “creativity”?

[quote]
I have no problem with moral behavior, and I did not imply such a thing anywhere in my post. Are there not people of great moral fibre in the world, who are not religious? Of course there are.[/quote]

How would you define “morals” if they are not dictated by some higher power? Wouldn’t they be purely subjective really?

[quote]
Certainly one could say that religion has been used to promote great intolerance and unimaginable human suffering in the world through thousands of years.[/quote]

Operative phrase there being “religion has been used”. The religions at issue generally weren’t the problem; it was the men with agendas using them to fulfill their purposes.

24

I see what you’re saying. But I suppose that if no one taught their children from a young age about their particular religion, if they didn’t start ingraining it in their heads early, we’d have no organized religions and no religious people per se, would we?

The vast, vast majority of people who believe in a particular religion do so because it was ingrained in them starting at a very young age. I was raised Catholic (and thus have some of those basic values and beliefs instilled in me), but that was purely chance – if I had been born in Kuwait I would’ve been raised Muslim.

Hypothetically, just for kicks, suppose the government (or all governments) made it illegal to take children to church or any religious services, or to teach them any religion before the age of 18. The government is saying, “We don’t want anyone brainwashing kids at a young age when they’re too naive to think for themselves.”

So at age 18 kids are set free to start being taught about religion and exploring the various religions that are out there. How on earth would they choose, now that they’re at a more rational, unbiased, more capable (of thinking) age? How does one, without bias, analytically look at Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Shintoism, Hinduism, etc., etc. and rationally point to one and say, “THAT’S the TRUE religion! THAT god is the real God!”

You can’t do it.

25

[quote]Damici wrote:

So at age 18 kids are set free to start being taught about religion and exploring the various religions that are out there. How on earth would they choose, now that they’re at a more rational, unbiased, more capable (of thinking) age? How does one, without bias, analytically look at Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Shintoism, Hinduism, etc., etc. and rationally point to one and say, “THAT’S the TRUE religion! THAT god is the real God!”

You can’t do it.[/quote]

I think that it is impossible to pick a religion based on rational means. “Faith” by its very definition is belief beyond the constraints of logic or reason. No one says they have faith in gravity or faith that water will change from a solid to a liquid state if an ice cube is left on the counter. Both of these are empirically verifiable. To say you have faith in the existence of God is to say that despite the fact that it’s an unfalsifiable claim, you still believe it.

26

I was baptized catholic, went to church every Sunday, hell my first and middle name is Matthew Mark. My parents did their best to show me what and why they believed, but when I grew up I decided it just wasn’t for me.

Whatever you believe, you owe it to your children to show them that so they can understand. Eventually they will choose what is right for them.

27

Exactly. That’s my point. It would be much harder to instill in a person pure faith if you were starting with them from scratch at an adult age, when they have the capability to fully reason and analyze. Hence, organized religions as we know them likely wouldn’t exist.

[quote]abcd1234 wrote:
Damici wrote:

So at age 18 kids are set free to start being taught about religion and exploring the various religions that are out there. How on earth would they choose, now that they’re at a more rational, unbiased, more capable (of thinking) age? How does one, without bias, analytically look at Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Shintoism, Hinduism, etc., etc. and rationally point to one and say, “THAT’S the TRUE religion! THAT god is the real God!”

You can’t do it.

I think that it is impossible to pick a religion based on rational means. “Faith” by its very definition is belief beyond the constraints of logic or reason. No one says they have faith in gravity or faith that water will change from a solid to a liquid state if an ice cube is left on the counter. Both of these are empirically verifiable. To say you have faith in the existence of God is to say that despite the fact that it’s an unfalsifiable claim, you still believe it. [/quote]

28

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
whoami wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
I say everyone should pick their own religion. Any parent who tries to force religion on their kid should be castrated.

Joe84, the way you’ve learnt about your religion seems to be the ideal way.

Ya I guess, people seem to think it’s pretty uncommon and that all Catholics are Bible thumpers though. I don’t really get where the viewpoint comes from, most of the ones I know are the opposite.

My mormon wife always had a lot of negative things to say about catholics. How it’s a religion based on fear, not love etc. She also couldn’t stand how catholics always show the cross. I guess it goes back to the old Bill Hicks thing about Jesus not wanting to come back when everyone’s wearing the crosses :slight_smile:

I am in NO way saying that mormons in general think like this. I do not know anything about catholics. Joe, maybe you could enlighten me. Is the catholic religion based on fear in your opinion?

The basic premise that we were taught was to “love your neighbour,” so basically treat everyone how you want to be treated. We wern’t ever taught any fear mongering stuff, in fact we were taught that God is very forgiving.

I don’t think any Catholic church preaches that you’re going to go straight to hell if you do this this or that, at least not in recent years, although that may have been the case in the past.
[/quote]

This is completely consistent with my Catholic upbringing and education.

And at no point during my life has a Catholic clergy member told me to be a sheep and not to think for myself. Quite the contrary.

There are way too many misconceptions about Catholicism.

DB

29

[quote]jpb wrote:
I’m sure you were employing hyperbole in your choice of words.

Should parents who “force” morals on their children be castrated? How about parents who “force” good eating habits and exercise? How about parents who “force” disciplined study habits in school? After all, a child (who is infinitely wiser than his parents) should be able to decide their own morals, the ingestion of nothing but sugary treats and playing Nintendo all the time without the horrible intervention of their parents.

Do you have children?

jpb[/quote]

Yes, I was employing hyperbole. I wasn’t talking about introduction of religion, but if the child doesn’t find a chosen religion to be consistent with how they see the world, then it’s their choice to find another.

I wasn’t singling out any religions in particular either - more the parents who don’t allow for free choice. No religion is better than forced religion.

Can you give me an example of how letting a person choose their own religion could be bad?

And no, I don’t have children. (That I know of! Ha ha, just kidding. Or am I? Who knows?)

30

[quote]Makavali wrote:
jpb wrote:
I’m sure you were employing hyperbole in your choice of words.

Should parents who “force” morals on their children be castrated? How about parents who “force” good eating habits and exercise? How about parents who “force” disciplined study habits in school? After all, a child (who is infinitely wiser than his parents) should be able to decide their own morals, the ingestion of nothing but sugary treats and playing Nintendo all the time without the horrible intervention of their parents.

Do you have children?

jpb

Yes, I was employing hyperbole. I wasn’t talking about introduction of religion, but if the child doesn’t find a chosen religion to be consistent with how they see the world, then it’s their choice to find another.

I wasn’t singling out any religions in particular either - more the parents who don’t allow for free choice. No religion is better than forced religion.

Can you give me an example of how letting a person choose their own religion could be bad?

And no, I don’t have children. (That I know of! Ha ha, just kidding. Or am I? Who knows?)[/quote]

Your statement “No religion is better than forced religion” is your opinion. I think Christianity is the only consistent worldview; if I didn’t “force” my children to pursue it, I wouldn’t be doing a very good job as a parent. Of course, as they get older and decided they don’t want to pursue the faith, I’m not going to “force” them. The point is, parents must “force” children to do a lot of things; church attendance certainly isn’t an exception.

When you have children, you can do those things consistent with your worldview.

Thanks for the interaction!

jpb

31

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Petermus wrote:
imho… we’d all be dead if we didnt have religion… look how many people have an std lol…

Most of the people I know who get std’s are “religious”. Nobody said religion was bad, it’s the fact that religion is forced on people that’s bad.[/quote]

I do, but I’m not getting into this all over again - it’s like beating a dead horse.

I was raised Roman Catholic and dragged by my ear to church, I got sick of it, gained some knowledge and now I believe in what I can see - not an imaginary friend.

As long as you don’t come knocking on my door at 7am on a Sunday or you don’t go strapping bombs to yourself and hurt others, I really don’t care what you believe. (Don’t specifically mean you, Makavali)

32

[quote]rsg wrote:
As long as you don’t come knocking on my door at 7am on a Sunday or you don’t go strapping bombs to yourself and hurt others, I really don’t care what you believe.[/quote]

I’m of the same mindset.

33

[quote]Damici wrote:
Exactly. That’s my point. It would be much harder to instill in a person pure faith if you were starting with them from scratch at an adult age, when they have the capability to fully reason and analyze. Hence, organized religions as we know them likely wouldn’t exist.

[/quote]

Ahh, but this is where I disagree. People don’t always think 100% rationally. I believe religion will always be present in the minds of humans. In fact, some evolutionary psychologists believe there’s a biological predisposition and basis for religion in humans(some even argue Neanderthals were as well).

If this is true, then religion is not solely a social construct. It would be, rather, a primal feeling and suppressing might be akin to suppressing sexual/reproductive urges. If anyone has had an existential crisis, you know the amount of anxiety that comes with it. Religion solves the problem, however, and allows people to continue without angst-ridden feelings of pointlessness. And since most undoubtedly prefer the calm that comes from believing in a greater good and higher power, they will continue to do so.

Whether a parent instills a child with these beliefs or they discover them themselves is irrelevant. Many will still reach a theistic viewpoint at some point in their lives, which may be due(in part) to an ingenious evolutionary defense mechanism.

34

[quote]jpb wrote:
Your statement “No religion is better than forced religion” is your opinion. I think Christianity is the only consistent worldview; if I didn’t “force” my children to pursue it, I wouldn’t be doing a very good job as a parent. Of course, as they get older and decided they don’t want to pursue the faith, I’m not going to “force” them. The point is, parents must “force” children to do a lot of things; church attendance certainly isn’t an exception.[/quote]

Surely you could instill basic morals into your child at an early age? The Golden Rule? This doesn’t require church.

That said, please don’t make it sound like I’m bashing going to church every Sunday. I have no qualms about any religion that preaches open mindedness.

I’m just saying that not taking your child to church won’t turn them into a train wreck for the rest of their lives.

35

Good point, but I still don’t see ORGANIZED religion as we know it surviving a situation like the one I described. Honestly, when presented, from a blank slate, with numerous religions, all worshipping a different deity or deities, how does one choose which one is right, which one is the real, TRUE God? Because if you pick wrongly, you’re fucked! (As per the teachings of most of them anyway).

Now, believing in SOMETHING in general, a higher power, fate, some kind of force generally speaking . . . that I can see under those circumstances. But consciously choosing, say, Islam over all the rest, or Catholicism over all the rest, etc. . . . it would make no sense.

[quote]abcd1234 wrote:
Damici wrote:
Exactly. That’s my point. It would be much harder to instill in a person pure faith if you were starting with them from scratch at an adult age, when they have the capability to fully reason and analyze. Hence, organized religions as we know them likely wouldn’t exist.

Ahh, but this is where I disagree. People don’t always think 100% rationally. I believe religion will always be present in the minds of humans. In fact, some evolutionary psychologists believe there’s a biological predisposition and basis for religion in humans(some even argue Neanderthals were as well).

If this is true, then religion is not solely a social construct. It would be, rather, a primal feeling and suppressing might be akin to suppressing sexual/reproductive urges. If anyone has had an existential crisis, you know the amount of anxiety that comes with it. Religion solves the problem, however, and allows people to continue without angst-ridden feelings of pointlessness. And since most undoubtedly prefer the calm that comes from believing in a greater good and higher power, they will continue to do so.

Whether a parent instills a child with these beliefs or they discover them themselves is irrelevant. Many will still reach a theistic viewpoint at some point in their lives, which may be due(in part) to an ingenious evolutionary defense mechanism. [/quote]

36

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I’m just saying that not taking your child to church won’t turn them into a train wreck for the rest of their lives.[/quote]

This is very true, I know a lot of people who grew up with the ideas of Christianity yet were not really into it, didn’t go to church ext yet they turned out fine. Yet millions of kids are raised in a certain religion turn out fine also, its good to instill good moral behavior when they get older they can have more free thought yet when their a child its counter productive.

37

I don’t have a problem with religion. I’m talking about taking your kids to church and exposing them to ORGANIZED religion. An entirely different thing in my opinion. Some might say that teaching kids about love, is teaching them about religion. I don’t see the problem with that. The people I’ve talked to who follow an organized religion, always frowned upon that sort of “new-age” stuff, and always proceeded to hit me over the head with some facts about how God is 6’ tall, has grey hair and likes his eggs sunny side up.
My point is that organized religion has so many boundaries, and one is required to limit ones thinking because of it.

I realize that human beings have found religion to be an excellent social tool for keeping people “in line”, and teaching moral values is a big part of that. Do people adopt these values because they really believe in them, or are they scared because they’re not all that keen on the lake of fire? I know my grandmother scared the shit out of me when I was a kid, telling me that if I didn’t do so and so I’d be going to hell. I mean, that’s been one of the basic premises of christianity for quite some time, and I don’t know how much good it did me being exposed to it at such an early age. The church here in Norway don’t believe in hell anymore, so I guess the kids are safe from that particular mindfuck these days. Fascinating how the church discovered, after 2000 years, that hell doesn’t really exist after all. Amazing!

It’s plain to see that christianity changes it’s views and perspectives through the ages. We now have gay priests etc. What makes organized religion change? Society, right? The changes in organized religion, mirror what is socially acceptable in that particular time period. Some people may be opposed to that, but certain aspects need to be changed to keep the doctrine from brushing too many people the wrong way. So what you’re really teaching the child through organized religion, is the values of society. It may not be the “correct” values, but it’s a set of slowly changing values that’s promoted by the church (whatever church it may be). So, why can’t one teach kids about morals without resorting to organized religion? Because one needs the element of fear? Surely not! Is it then because without a higher omnipotent being, there really is no basis for ethics? “Why shouldn’t I covet my neighbors wife? Because he’ll get hurt? Why is that a problem?”

I think that the problem of a seemingly elusive base on which to found our moral values, is quite possible to solve. The thing that needs to be changed, in my opinion, is education. The act of saying to one’s child “this is what you must do, because it is Gods’ will”, is an act of intellectual laziness. As far as keeping people in line goes, I’m sure it’s worked to an extent for the last 2000 years or so, but what’s happening today? I can only speak for my country. People in Norway do not believe in God. A small percentage do, but people in general do not. So what keeps people from lying, stealing, having sex with everything that’s warm and wet, cheating, loving and admiring one self over all others, yet letting ones’ body and mind deteriorate? Nothing, that’s what. They don’t believe in God, and they’ve certainly not been educated in any useful way. Sure, they know math and some geography, but they have not been educated.

The fact is that we’ve based this whole thing on people believing in God, and when they don’t the house of cards collapses. We need to be serious about the education of our children. Most people are not. That is why we leave it up to someone else to educate them. Sending them to kindergarten and school, where the curriculum has been decided by people whom we’ve never even met.

The problem of education is very big I believe.

38

I think that religion/faith should be found through an individuals own personal search for answers, not through being dragged to church every week by their parents. I always thought it would be better to give the child a good education on all religions and allow them to make their own decisions.

A problem I have with encouraging a strict belief in a given faith is that it can be very difficult for some people to tell their parents they no longer believe in said faith. I wonder how many people out there are religious simply because they fear disappointing their parents.

39

[quote]whoami wrote:
I guess some of you are aware of my current situation, but if you aren’t I won’t go over it again here. All I’ll say is that certain things have happened to me lately, and I’ve been thinking quite a bit about religion as a consequence of these events.

One of the things I’ve been thinking about is people taking their kids to church. From the time they’re born, many children are taken to church every sunday.

I believe that one of the most important aspects of being a parent, is teaching your children to be individuals capable of thinking for themselves. Really thinking and understanding the processes and movements of the mind. I believe this will lead to a less fearful life, and a life without sheep-mentality and knee-jerk behavior.

Teaching children that there is only one single correct, very specific way of viewing the world, seems to me to be undermining the potential of every human being to be an individual, and also decreasing the likelyhood of raising a free-thinking person.

If one believes, like the mormons do, that we’re put here on earth to learn, then surely it would be beneficial not to limit ones thinking to the four restricting walls of your religion of choice?

American people are, I believe, more religious than people of my native country (Norway). Therefore, I raise this issue on T-Nation, where I know there are people of both great faith and great intelligence.

Thanks.[/quote]

I have thought about this in the same manor that you are I believe. One of the things that has changed in my own thought is that if you are an individual separate from all others, then why can you not will yourself to exist separate from all others? I think that one of the flaws of my own personal religion was that it taught individuality and the experience of salvation as an individualistic endeavor.

I no longer believe that type of belief to be of any benefit to the world or myself. Surly individual accountability is much higher if others rely on you for their salvation or eventual realization of themselves. I doubt that this helps much but you post brought back this to me.

I have no idea about what has sparked this thought in you, but you will no doubt benefit from what ever it was in the long run. For me it was watching my mother die of cancer.

40

[quote]whoami wrote:
I don’t have a problem with religion. I’m talking about taking your kids to church and exposing them to ORGANIZED religion. An entirely different thing in my opinion. Some might say that teaching kids about love, is teaching them about religion. I don’t see the problem with that. The people I’ve talked to who follow an organized religion, always frowned upon that sort of “new-age” stuff, and always proceeded to hit me over the head with some facts about how God is 6’ tall, has grey hair and likes his eggs sunny side up.
My point is that organized religion has so many boundaries, and one is required to limit ones thinking because of it.

I realize that human beings have found religion to be an excellent social tool for keeping people “in line”, and teaching moral values is a big part of that. Do people adopt these values because they really believe in them, or are they scared because they’re not all that keen on the lake of fire? I know my grandmother scared the shit out of me when I was a kid, telling me that if I didn’t do so and so I’d be going to hell. I mean, that’s been one of the basic premises of christianity for quite some time, and I don’t know how much good it did me being exposed to it at such an early age. The church here in Norway don’t believe in hell anymore, so I guess the kids are safe from that particular mindfuck these days. Fascinating how the church discovered, after 2000 years, that hell doesn’t really exist after all. Amazing!

It’s plain to see that christianity changes it’s views and perspectives through the ages. We now have gay priests etc. What makes organized religion change? Society, right? The changes in organized religion, mirror what is socially acceptable in that particular time period. Some people may be opposed to that, but certain aspects need to be changed to keep the doctrine from brushing too many people the wrong way. So what you’re really teaching the child through organized religion, is the values of society. It may not be the “correct” values, but it’s a set of slowly changing values that’s promoted by the church (whatever church it may be). So, why can’t one teach kids about morals without resorting to organized religion? Because one needs the element of fear? Surely not! Is it then because without a higher omnipotent being, there really is no basis for ethics? “Why shouldn’t I covet my neighbors wife? Because he’ll get hurt? Why is that a problem?”

I think that the problem of a seemingly elusive base on which to found our moral values, is quite possible to solve. The thing that needs to be changed, in my opinion, is education. The act of saying to one’s child “this is what you must do, because it is Gods’ will”, is an act of intellectual laziness. As far as keeping people in line goes, I’m sure it’s worked to an extent for the last 2000 years or so, but what’s happening today? I can only speak for my country. People in Norway do not believe in God. A small percentage do, but people in general do not. So what keeps people from lying, stealing, having sex with everything that’s warm and wet, cheating, loving and admiring one self over all others, yet letting ones’ body and mind deteriorate? Nothing, that’s what. They don’t believe in God, and they’ve certainly not been educated in any useful way. Sure, they know math and some geography, but they have not been educated.

The fact is that we’ve based this whole thing on people believing in God, and when they don’t the house of cards collapses. We need to be serious about the education of our children. Most people are not. That is why we leave it up to someone else to educate them. Sending them to kindergarten and school, where the curriculum has been decided by people whom we’ve never even met.

The problem of education is very big I believe.[/quote]

The problem is that you are viewing your life as individual blocks of time. You have that luxury in the present but are not able to see the future with certainty. So you can make the mistake of believing that a certain portion of your past could have been left out or done differently to get you where you are now, but there is no medium to verify that is the case. You have to realize that what is in the past had to happen, by nature of what the past is. Already over.

I do not believe in predestination or anything for the record. I believe in an age of accountability as some have described it , and that not all people reach this level of cognition. There are probably varying levels and some achieve different amounts of each, it helps explain why the world is the way it is better than any other explanation I have come across. Education is certainly a great method to increasing ones cognition as is experience its self.