[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
This thread seems to have sparked a little debate, of that I am glad.
One thing that I find surprising is that there seems to be avid proponents of name-calling and derogatory speech. To me, this is particularly surprising coming from posters who want others to come back. I think it’s one thing for two guys (let’s say Rainjack and Fighting Irish) to argue back and forth with vitriol as they know (knew?) each other and enjoyed such conversations. It’s another entirely when new or sometimes posters are “attacked” by 3 or 4 different posters who mostly just throw insults.
Perhaps there is a connection between negative speech and people leaving? Could we “tone it down” for newcomers or limit the personal attacks to people we know enjoy such things? [/quote]
We had this same debate in the steroid forum a couple of years back.
My take: any member worth his salt is not going to be deterred by a little bit of name-calling or foul language, asshole.
;)[/quote]
lol. Yeah, I understand where your coming from. But it seems across the board people want additional ideas and a variety of posters. It seems like a little less name-calling might help promote that. Perhaps it would be too great a sacrifice though?
Also, something that I’m noticing is that most people arguing for foul, derogatory language are ALSO arguing that those posts must also contain quality content. This I think is essential. It’s one thing to JUST call someone an asshole, it’s another to include the word “asshole” in an otherwise well thought out post.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
This forum is Politics and world Issues. [/quote]
Sadly, religion makes itself a world issue.[/quote]
Yes, but only ONE religion.[/quote]
And which one is that? I can think of three of the top of my head that make me fear for the future of civilization. Religion and belief in the unprovable is something that affects the world (not always negatively mind you).
[quote]Bambi wrote:
I disagree. I think we need more open debates which means
People not resorting to the ad hominem of ‘you’re just a high school kid, go sit on your pol sci professor’s lap’ ‘or go and learn pol sci’ (within two posts of each other). Or ‘why are you commenting on this because you are in UK/Austria whatever’. The amount of commentators on events outside the US is pretty much zero so that’s what we have to play with.
People not derailing threads so they become religious threads, gay rights or abortion threads. These are the worst because there’s no point posting, I know who’ll come in and argue their opinion for 50 pages and nothing you say will change their mind. There’s no point arguing, it just becomes a shouting match, and people resort to the most ugly insults and mudslinging
The preponderance of people who have incredibly extreme opinions that introducing to the debate does nothing but polairse. I actually have no problem with libertarian ideology as its fairly novel point of view (they basically don’t exist across the pond) but when people say (paraphrasing) liberals are responsible for all the evils of the world, why the hell should I bother responding. I’m not seen as a liberal by my peers, rather quite centre, but what can I say to that? Sometimes I take the piss but I would honestly like to have more open, reasoned debates.[/quote]
I agree. I particularly am surprised with #1 when it relates to non-Americans. It seems to me that alternative ideas/perspectives SHOULD be welcome… but they are often shot down because of personal issues between certain posters. While I can somewhat understand holding “grudges” or being annoyed at certain people “always criticizing the US” I do appreciate hearing others thoughts, especially people from around the world.
The “young” thing is FAR, FAR overused and has been shot down a few times in the recent past when a few posters replied that they’re in their 30s or 40s.
But really, you’re right, it’s the content of the post/argument that should primarily be looked at, not personal issues. That’s one of the reasons I’ve refused to answer some posters questions about my personal life…eh.
I agree with your other points as well but I don’t want to make this post too long.
[quote]Cortes wrote:(I have not read all the other replies that follow this, so sorry if my reply contains redundancies.)
I agree that the Internet is a huge waste of time if used in that manner. However, I have learned a TON from this website since 2002 when I first started reading here. The website itself helped me to achieve a body I literally had not believed I could have achieved back then, and this forum has played a large part in helping to shape and crystallize my beliefs. In a different manner, the website and the knowledge I’ve gained here have helped me out massively in my business dealings. Granted at this point I do tread a fine line between learning and time-wasting, and I have to guard against the latter.
Incidentally I wish you didn’t feel that it was such the waste of time that you feel it is, Tom. I really enjoyed your posts back when you posted regularly and I learned a great deal from you. I understand you have a busy life with your practice and such, but you certainly did make this forum a better place. [/quote]I agree. If I didn’t feel I was using time wisely here I would stop. The internet is like any other tool on earth. It is as good or bad as the use it’s put to. Never before in human history has so much information been so immediately available. Predictably that is a giant double edged sword. Every form of sickness, perversion and dishonesty along with mountains of useful even vital information are at one’s fingertips.
Some may think this weird or even unhealthy, but I “know” people right here I’ve never met and probably never will who I really care about. Also, I keep constantly in mind the ever present lurkers. I say everything I do assuming many people I am unaware of will and are reading it. The internet is (sort of) man’s ultimate measure of character so far. You can see, hear or say ANYTHING you want in interaction with anybody and any information anywhere on earth instantly without consequence. What you do with it when nobody’s lookin is who and what you are.
[quote]John S. wrote:
I’ll be the first to admit that even tho I disagree’d with Lixy on just about everything, he was fun to have debates with.
PWI, while it has improved in some aspects really has lost the Liberal’s. I will be the first to say that I wrongly associated everyone who was liberal with Ryan and treated them all as such. For that I apologize and I believe I have changed my attitude.[/quote]
I find that you behave just fine John.
[/quote]
You are one of my favorite posters on this section. I look forward to more exchanges.[/quote]
[quote]John S. wrote:
I’ll be the first to admit that even tho I disagree’d with Lixy on just about everything, he was fun to have debates with.
PWI, while it has improved in some aspects really has lost the Liberal’s. I will be the first to say that I wrongly associated everyone who was liberal with Ryan and treated them all as such. For that I apologize and I believe I have changed my attitude.[/quote]
I find that you behave just fine John.
[/quote]
You are one of my favorite posters on this section. I look forward to more exchanges.[/quote]
You can get some great training info on the net. You can learn much about injuries , nutrition , equipment and such .
But you need to learn weights by doing snd getting around strong people . It’s an apprentice / journeyman / craftsman thing.
As for making a political board better . I roll my eyes at the thought . People will believe what they do and arguing will not normally change it . Life circumstances might . You want to talk politics , fine . But thinking an anonymous web board will maintain a certain level of quality isn’t very practical .
So after awhile you realize you need to cut the grass , do taxes or go for a walk . I now and then will state what I think , but I’m not going to argue .
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Maybe people realize after awhile that the Internet can be a huge waste of time and don’t feel like bothering with it? It’s not like it really matters .
Check out any board where people talk about stuff of any sort . It’s all the same .
As opposed to real life where your words might have consequence and meaning .[/quote]
(I have not read all the other replies that follow this, so sorry if my reply contains redundancies.)
I agree that the Internet is a huge waste of time if used in that manner. However, I have learned a TON from this website since 2002 when I first started reading here. The website itself helped me to achieve a body I literally had not believed I could have achieved back then, and this forum has played a large part in helping to shape and crystallize my beliefs. In a different manner, the website and the knowledge I’ve gained here have helped me out massively in my business dealings. Granted at this point I do tread a fine line between learning and time-wasting, and I have to guard against the latter.
Incidentally I wish you didn’t feel that it was such the waste of time that you feel it is, Tom. I really enjoyed your posts back when you posted regularly and I learned a great deal from you. I understand you have a busy life with your practice and such, but you certainly did make this forum a better place. [/quote]
I admitted it. Its also exactly what he was doing.
But mainly I don’t like being labeled a conservative. On social issues I’m actually very liberal. Most librarians are. FI was applying labels and being divisive without really adding to the discussion. That is exactly what he said he hates.
Contrary to what he said, I don’t think there are a lot of partisans in PWI. There are however a lot of ideologues. But that is a huge distinction. One is far more honorable than the other.
[quote]Cortes wrote:(I have not read all the other replies that follow this, so sorry if my reply contains redundancies.)
I agree that the Internet is a huge waste of time if used in that manner. However, I have learned a TON from this website since 2002 when I first started reading here. The website itself helped me to achieve a body I literally had not believed I could have achieved back then, and this forum has played a large part in helping to shape and crystallize my beliefs. In a different manner, the website and the knowledge I’ve gained here have helped me out massively in my business dealings. Granted at this point I do tread a fine line between learning and time-wasting, and I have to guard against the latter.
Incidentally I wish you didn’t feel that it was such the waste of time that you feel it is, Tom. I really enjoyed your posts back when you posted regularly and I learned a great deal from you. I understand you have a busy life with your practice and such, but you certainly did make this forum a better place. [/quote]I agree. If I didn’t feel I was using time wisely here I would stop. The internet is like any other tool on earth. It is as good or bad as the use it’s put to. Never before in human history has so much information been so immediately available. Predictably that is a giant double edged sword. Every form of sickness, perversion and dishonesty along with mountains of useful even vital information are at one’s fingertips.
Some may think this weird or even unhealthy, but I “know” people right here I’ve never met and probably never will who I really care about. Also, I keep constantly in mind the ever present lurkers. I say everything I do assuming many people I am unaware of will and are reading it. The internet is (sort of) man’s ultimate measure of character so far. You can see, hear or say ANYTHING you want in interaction with anybody and any information anywhere on earth instantly without consequence. What you do with it when nobody’s lookin is who and what you are.
[/quote]
I feel almost ashamed that in listing off the benefits I’ve gained from this website, I didn’t mention that I have made some of my closest friends here. That includes having met some of them in “real life” and talked with many outside the internet.
To bring this conversation back to topic, I would say that the only thing PWI really needs, if it “needs” anything, is for the members to self-police to a small degree and, primarily to keep threads on topic. I think this latter would go a long way toward alleviating all sorts of grievances (again, though, I don’t really have any). However, threads staying on topic has not exactly been a staple feature of this forum throughout the years, in my experience, either.
[quote]phaethon wrote:
I feel ashamed to say that Mak is one of the better posters in the current PWI. And most of his posts are still just snarky one liners and jokes.[/quote]
That fact that you even think this frightens me. I’ll be the first to admit a lot of my posts are quite poor in quality.
Just for the record, I’d be up for a good debate, but I really can’t be bothered to put in any effort if all I’m going to receive is commentary about my age or country. The current problems (as I see them) are:
We have posters (always the same ones) thinking that bringing up age or origin is somehow pertinent to the topic being discussed. Simply put, the fact that I am from New Zealand or that Orion is from Austria has no bearing on the debate. The fact that the poster you are responding to is younger than you is not relevant.
We have posters who have given up and simply troll. I have been guilty of this. I have my suspicions about other people who have started to do this. I tried at one stage to spark discussion on the possibility of reducing abortion rates by furthering education instead of seeking a path that is the equivalent of beating your face against a brick wall. All I found was emotional response and people burying their heads in the sand. I quickly lost interest.
We have unbridled arrogance due to a majority of conservatives posting (although that’s not to say it is endemic to them). I don’t think any of the liberal posters (or anyone other than a conservative) appreciates being told that they are single handedly responsible for the downfall of society or just plain immoral. There is never any debate, it is just outright stated as if it were a well established fact (which it is not). No reasoning or justification is given, it is just shouted out like an insult on a playground.
Now, I feel that this has been the status quo since the beginning. Is this just a system that was doomed to self destruct, or are we not too late to still have some good debate? There have been some very good threads in the past, but they are effectively stifled by the crap that normally gets posted.[/quote]
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by this. This type of discussion was my intent. [/quote]
Referring to the DD and FI exchange looking like any other thread. [/quote]
Ahh, I see. Although, I think this thread might be for a bit of “that” too. What I mean is that I’m not so sure DD actually realized what FI was complaining about or how it related to him. Hopefully, he realizes now that FI was complaining about it (and he did give a perfect example for others).
OR if he did understand and continues to do so in this thread, we’ll all realize he’s just trolling. [/quote]
I was pointing out that FI’s post was exactly the devicive partisan substance-less bickering he was complaining about. My only trolling was letting him draw me in further to explain why it was exactly that.
The biggest problem I have with some of the people I argue against is when some one places a label on me that doesn’t fit and then proceeds to argue with the label rather than my beliefs.
I am anti-war, anti direct christian influence in politics, anti torture, pro-marrying whomever you want, est. And I have argued as much on this board. Some posters just see whatever it is they want to see though.
It’s pretty obvious I don’t communicate as well as I would like to be able to though. I’ve been getting accused of trolling a lot recently.
You can get some great training info on the net. You can learn much about injuries , nutrition , equipment and such .
But you need to learn weights by doing snd getting around strong people . It’s an apprentice / journeyman / craftsman thing.
As for making a political board better . I roll my eyes at the thought . People will believe what they do and arguing will not normally change it . Life circumstances might . You want to talk politics , fine . But thinking an anonymous web board will maintain a certain level of quality isn’t very practical .
So after awhile you realize you need to cut the grass , do taxes or go for a walk . I now and then will state what I think , but I’m not going to argue .
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Maybe people realize after awhile that the Internet can be a huge waste of time and don’t feel like bothering with it? It’s not like it really matters .
Check out any board where people talk about stuff of any sort . It’s all the same .
As opposed to real life where your words might have consequence and meaning .[/quote]
(I have not read all the other replies that follow this, so sorry if my reply contains redundancies.)
I agree that the Internet is a huge waste of time if used in that manner. However, I have learned a TON from this website since 2002 when I first started reading here. The website itself helped me to achieve a body I literally had not believed I could have achieved back then, and this forum has played a large part in helping to shape and crystallize my beliefs. In a different manner, the website and the knowledge I’ve gained here have helped me out massively in my business dealings. Granted at this point I do tread a fine line between learning and time-wasting, and I have to guard against the latter.
Incidentally I wish you didn’t feel that it was such the waste of time that you feel it is, Tom. I really enjoyed your posts back when you posted regularly and I learned a great deal from you. I understand you have a busy life with your practice and such, but you certainly did make this forum a better place. [/quote]
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
IMO that would work with your so called liberals only and why I feel that way is the so called conservatives think that so called conservative values and the only right answer
And if we were to make one category a forum to itself RELIGION , it dominates this forum.
This forum is Politics and world Issues. [/quote]
Good, bad or indifferent – Religion is a world issue. And a local issue. And an individual issue. It flavors most everyone’s worldview.[/quote]
True , IMO Man Kind would be far ahead to minimize the effects. There are very few issues that could be outside world issues. I think a category of Religion would cover all the Jesus threads
