[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
This.[/quote]
but just cause its an “honest mistake” does that mean that they shouldnt have to face the consequences for breaking the law?[/quote]
Did the punishment fit the crime?
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
This.[/quote]
but just cause its an “honest mistake” does that mean that they shouldnt have to face the consequences for breaking the law?[/quote]
Did the punishment fit the crime?[/quote]
A few hours in the police station, a $50 bail fee and charged with a 4th degree theft (a misdemeanor)?? That sounds about right for shop lifting.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
If you were going to steal a sandwhich by eating it in the store would you keep the wrapper in the kart where it’s likely to be spotted by the person at the till, or would you stuff the wrapper in behind the dill pickles? It’s unlikely that they couldn’t afford the five dollars if they went on to spend 50 more, it’s unlikely they were out thrill seeking with their child in tow, it’s unlikely that they were attempting to commit a crime if they made no effort to hide the evidance, and it’s unlikely that they’re circus freak stupid. Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
Dude, no offense, but they were easily as likely to simply think they were above having to pay for the sandwich SINCE they bought 50 bucks worth of shit. You are acting like this is impossible.
It is also likely she did forget, remembered BEFORE SHE LEFT and then said “fuck it” and walked out anyway.
Both scenarios are JUST as likely and both would mean she stole the damn sammich.[/quote]
You believe that the average person is just as likely to feel entitled to a freebie worth 10% of their purchase, AND believes it’s worth the risk of prosicution, fines, embarrassment, etc… to obtain that freebie, as the average person is to be absent minded? I disagree.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
This.[/quote]
but just cause its an “honest mistake” does that mean that they shouldnt have to face the consequences for breaking the law?[/quote]
Did the punishment fit the crime?[/quote]
A few hours in the police station and a $50 fine? That sounds about right for shop lifting.[/quote]
I disagree. Especially, not in this circumstance.
How many times have you been in a grocery store and someone is either snacking or is drinking something from the store, then pays when they get in line?
Personally, i’ve seen it may times and no one was arrested.
Hey, congrats on the marriage thing, also.
[quote]imhungry wrote:
I disagree. Especially, not in this circumstance.
How many times have you been in a grocery store and someone is either snacking or is drinking something from the store, then pays when they get in line?
Personally, i’ve seen it may times and no one was arrested.
Hey, congrats on the marriage thing, also.
[/quote]
I’ve seen it quite a few times as well but these people didnt pay for it when they got in line. Thats the difference.
oh and thanks! 32 days and counting… its coming up quick! lol
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
If you were going to steal a sandwhich by eating it in the store would you keep the wrapper in the kart where it’s likely to be spotted by the person at the till, or would you stuff the wrapper in behind the dill pickles? It’s unlikely that they couldn’t afford the five dollars if they went on to spend 50 more, it’s unlikely they were out thrill seeking with their child in tow, it’s unlikely that they were attempting to commit a crime if they made no effort to hide the evidance, and it’s unlikely that they’re circus freak stupid. Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
Dude, no offense, but they were easily as likely to simply think they were above having to pay for the sandwich SINCE they bought 50 bucks worth of shit. You are acting like this is impossible.
It is also likely she did forget, remembered BEFORE SHE LEFT and then said “fuck it” and walked out anyway.
Both scenarios are JUST as likely and both would mean she stole the damn sammich.[/quote]
Get your head out of your ass. You’re just butthurt that you don’t get the white wimmenz, so now you hating on them. Stop thinking that everyone is out to steal shit. Innocent until proven guilty. This is America.
[quote]cct wrote:
Stop thinking that everyone is out to steal shit. Innocent until proven guilty. This is America.
[/quote]
they did steal the sandwiches. They left the store without paying for them… That means they’re guilty. Im not sure what you were trying to say?
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
I disagree. Especially, not in this circumstance.
How many times have you been in a grocery store and someone is either snacking or is drinking something from the store, then pays when they get in line?
Personally, i’ve seen it may times and no one was arrested.
Hey, congrats on the marriage thing, also.
[/quote]
I’ve seen it quite a few times as well but these people didnt pay for it when they got in line. Thats the difference.
oh and thanks! 32 days and counting… its coming up quick! lol[/quote]
Personally, I think they deserved the benefit of the doubt and were treated unjustly. That’s my opinion.
We can agree to diagree.
Oh, cool. You’re in the home stretch, then.
But, the stress levels go up a little each day until it happens… then , relief.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
This.[/quote]
but just cause its an “honest mistake” does that mean that they shouldnt have to face the consequences for breaking the law?[/quote]
Did the punishment fit the crime?[/quote]
A few hours in the police station and a $50 fine? That sounds about right for shop lifting.[/quote]
They paid 50 dollars in bail, not a 50 dollar fine. And the punishments of a conviction extend well beyond a simple 50 dollar fine, even if that were what was ordered. Having a criminal record is a cock block to your freedome for the rest of your life. It’s quite the price to pay for a little bit of empty headedness over a 5 dollar sammich. And how exactly do you rehabilitate a theif who never intended to steal anything? What purpose does punishment serve if there is no intent?
What the mom did would not legally classify as theft/shoplifting unless she intended to steal the sandwich. Hawaii’s shoplifting statute reads:
(8) Shoplifting.
(a) A person conceals or takes possession of the goods or merchandise of any store or retail establishment, with intent to defraud.
(b) A person alters the price tag or other price marking on goods or merchandise of any store or retail establishment, with intent to defraud.
(c) A person transfers the goods or merchandise of any store or retail establishment from one container to another, with intent to defraud.
Each offense requiring an intention element.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
If you were going to steal a sandwhich by eating it in the store would you keep the wrapper in the kart where it’s likely to be spotted by the person at the till, or would you stuff the wrapper in behind the dill pickles? It’s unlikely that they couldn’t afford the five dollars if they went on to spend 50 more, it’s unlikely they were out thrill seeking with their child in tow, it’s unlikely that they were attempting to commit a crime if they made no effort to hide the evidance, and it’s unlikely that they’re circus freak stupid. Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
Dude, no offense, but they were easily as likely to simply think they were above having to pay for the sandwich SINCE they bought 50 bucks worth of shit. You are acting like this is impossible.
It is also likely she did forget, remembered BEFORE SHE LEFT and then said “fuck it” and walked out anyway.
Both scenarios are JUST as likely and both would mean she stole the damn sammich.[/quote]\
LOL you are consistently illogical.
One is not “just as likely”. To be “just as likely”, all the known information need to stack up equally. It does not. You seem to confuse “what we do know” with “whatever is possible”. You do this…ALL THE TIME.
And no one said it was “impossible” they were stealing - yet another of your fallacious constructs. You do it ALL THE TIME. You can’t help it.
[quote]gregron wrote:
a couple things:
They took something that didnt belong to them and did not pay for it. that is STEALING and is ILLEGAL. They should face the consequences for their actions. (weather or not they intended to pay for it is irrelevant)
They were white (from California) and living in Hawaii… Hawaiians do not like white people/mainlanders who live in Hawaii.
She ex Military and living in Hawaii… If there is one thing that Hawaiians hate more than white people/mainlanders its white people/mainlanders that are in the Military.[/quote]
First of all, in order to obtain a conviction for retail fraud the elements of the crime have to be proven or fulfilled beyond a reasonable doubt. One of the elements of this crime is the intent to permanently deprive the store of the property taken. Their defense is that they intended to pay for the sandwich but forgot. There was no mention in the article that they attempted to conceal the merchandise. Hard to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the burden of proof required to convict someone of the crime.
Bottom line: A total lack of common sense in pursuing this.
[quote]imhungry wrote:
We can agree to diagree.
Oh, cool. You’re in the home stretch, then.
But, the stress levels go up a little each day until it happens… then , relief.[/quote]
agreed lol.
Yeah the stress stuff is already coming on. Still lots of “little” things to get done here and there but the deadline is coming quick.
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
This.[/quote]
but just cause its an “honest mistake” does that mean that they shouldnt have to face the consequences for breaking the law?[/quote]
Did the punishment fit the crime?[/quote]
A few hours in the police station and a $50 fine? That sounds about right for shop lifting.[/quote]
They paid 50 dollars in bail, not a 50 dollar fine. And the punishments of a conviction extend well beyond a simple 50 dollar fine, even if that were what was ordered. Having a criminal record is a cock block to your freedome for the rest of your life. It’s quite the price to pay for a little bit of empty headedness over a 5 dollar sammich. And how exactly do you rehabilitate a theif who never intended to steal anything? What purpose does punishment serve if there is no intent?[/quote]
you are really just ASSUMING a lot with your post here. Do you realize that?
[quote]gregron wrote:
a couple things:
I assume you just PLAY a lawyer on TV? Or on TNation?
“Whether” (not weather) or not they intended to pay or not IS relevant, under the circumstances.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]cct wrote:
Stop thinking that everyone is out to steal shit. Innocent until proven guilty. This is America.
[/quote]
they did steal the sandwiches. They left the store without paying for them… That means they’re guilty. Im not sure what you were trying to say?[/quote]
Quit being so technical; you are basically making murder and manslaughter the same thing. There should definitely be other word for this rather than ‘theft.’
On another note, I don’t understand arresting people for shoplifting at all. The punishment makes no sense. If you get caught, you should just end up paying double for it. Repeated offenses get you banned from the store. Getting the Police involved doesn’t solve anything other than creating more big government troubles.
[quote]IB.Curlin wrote:
What the mom did would not legally classify as theft/shoplifting unless she intended to steal the sandwich. Hawaii’s shoplifting statute reads:
(8) Shoplifting.
(a) A person conceals or takes possession of the goods or merchandise of any store or retail establishment, with intent to defraud.
(b) A person alters the price tag or other price marking on goods or merchandise of any store or retail establishment, with intent to defraud.
(c) A person transfers the goods or merchandise of any store or retail establishment from one container to another, with intent to defraud.
Each offense requiring an intention element.
^^
This.
[/quote]
[quote]clinton131 wrote:
There was no mention in the article that they attempted to conceal the merchandise. [/quote]
^^you mean like… EATING THE DAMN SANDWICHES??? lololol How is putting it into your body not an “attempt to conceal the merchandise”"??? LOL
^^not hard to prove. See my answer above… she admitted to eating the sandwich.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]imhungry wrote:
[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
Sure, it’s possible they intended to steal it. It’s just nowhere near as likely as being an honest mistake.[/quote]
This.[/quote]
but just cause its an “honest mistake” does that mean that they shouldnt have to face the consequences for breaking the law?[/quote]
if it was an honest mistake, under this scenario, they did not break the law. even IF they did break the law, it’s a fucking misdemeanor summary type offense that did not warrant hours of detention of both parents and the seizure of their child.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
a couple things:
I assume you just PLAY a lawyer on TV? Or on TNation?
[/quote]
^^LOL coming from you of all people this is laughable.
why is their intention relevant? If i’m not paying attention while driving and accidentally go over the speed limit when I didnt intend to does that mean I shouldnt get a speeding ticket?