? No one is missing this was punishment. What is wrong with it? Because he bled? You can’t cherry pick. To be against any and all physical punishment like this would mean you would be against “violent” sports in school…so wrestling and football are out.
His dad taught him a lesson. What makes this method so morally wrong?[/quote]
You create the biggest red herrings in the entire world. I’ve seriously never seen someone make such illogical jumps during their “arguing.” You are in serious need of a philosophy course that explains logic, premises, and validity of an argument.
[/quote]
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You can explain this elegant yet simple logic until you’re blue in the face, but then again X has never had a sense of proportion, and that’s what’s really lacking here. He’ll numb you with his inability to see it - I mean damn man, he didn’t break the kid’s jaw!
Anyway, I find those that aren’t really acquainted with violence are the most comfortable with it in theory. I have a 19 year old that has put me to the brink of violence and even I’m not fucking stupid enough to assault him under the guise of “sparring”.
[/quote]
This is true. So fucking true.
I’ve seen what that kind of intra-family violence does and what kind of scars it leaves.
Most guys who go through childhood with a father who beat them don’t want any fucking part of hitting their own kids, because they felt it, watched it happen to their brothers and sisters, and were so utterly disgusted that only in the most dire circumstances do they even contemplate it.
But then never do I expect X to go anywhere near admitting that 1) he’s wrong or 2) There may be more ways to approach the problem than the one he himself is suggesting.
[quote]So What wrote:
Dude, physical/emotional damage has nothing to do with it, it’s in fact a desired effect of punishment, (even though I think it shouldn’t come to the point where you are forced to get physical, you need to build a different type of authority).
Problem is even if you’re a MMA world champion, you do not teach a kid to obey from fear of physical punishment, but from respect of the father figure, however that may be achieved by dad.
If you start to get physical, where do you draw the line? The line is always there and I’m sure you’re thinking of the line being set right after boxing the kid, though I’d set it before physical encounters even start. If there’s in fact no line, the kid only needs to find a good weapon to carry. A knife should be a simple start. BAM, equal.
[/quote]
The only part of this that I disagree with is that physical or emotional damage is a desired effect of punishment when it relates to your kids. The desired effect should be a lesson. I don’t see what lesson the kid will learn from boxing with his dad. So he learns that dad is tougher. OK, he probably already figured that out. How is that lesson tied to the kid lying to his dad? Does boxing him teach him that lying is wrong? So if he’s not learning the desired lesson why choose that particular punishment?
As a father I can’t imagine punching my son as a form of punishment. Spanking a young child is completely different than hitting your teenager even if the hit was in the ring. Frankly I think that the point of spanking is more about causing the kid embarrassment than it is about dishing out pain. I could potentially understand boxing the son if the son had perhaps hit his dad in the middle of an argument and dad said “if you want to hit me let’s go get the gloves” (I suppose I can see that anyway…I’m still trying to wrap my head around that). But if your only solution to your son lying to you is to hit him then you’ve failed as a parent. My parents hit me simply because they didn’t really know what else to do. They came from broken homes themselves and didn’t have the skills to cope but that doesn’t mean they were right in doing it.
I think the point that many of us are trying to make is that boxing your son is great when it’s done for sport and to teach skills. My father taught me how to shoot for that very same reason. But he never challenged me to a duel (dad was on several teams and there’s no way I could win that). Regardless of whether dad is a well trained boxer who can pull punches with precision or a average joe, getting into the ring with your son and fighting him as a form of punishment is wrong because it doesn’t teach him anything and doesn’t do anything to correct the behavior.
Like many of you guys have said the man is a professional fighter. If he wanted to fuck up the kid he easily could have. He threw him a couple light blows to portray the fact that he’s the dominant figure in the household and what he says goes. And it was obviously done with a calmer mind than just someone who gets pissed and smacks their kid. He had him gear up for christ’s sake so he had protection from getting hurt.
Yes this might not be the best form of discipline for all households since sometimes the kid can beat up the parent but in this case its what he chose for HIS child and its what works for him. We’re discussing this specific incident so don’t bring up what works for most people.
And I’m saying all this as a still quite young man who grew up in the suburbs. I grew up in a town full of pot heads and partiers and you know what a good chunk of the parents do around here? They enable this behavior through providing alcohol and places to consume said alcohol and drugs.
I notice a complete lack of punishment with my generation (myself included) and honestly I’m worried for when we grow up and take control of the world. Kid’s drink and drive, smoke weed, pop pills, deal drugs, etc, etc and you know what they do after?
Throw pictures of themselves doing this stuff up on Facebook…Post statuses bragging about all the shit they’re doing and where they’re doing it…and other kids comment and tell them how cool what they’re doing is and brag about the shit that they did themselves. I’m not ignorant enough to think the older generations didn’t do any drugs or drink at all but they didn’t display it for everyone to see cuz they had fear of their parents and what would happen if they found out.
[quote]Pweedith wrote:
Like many of you guys have said the man is a professional fighter. If he wanted to fuck up the kid he easily could have. He threw him a couple light blows to portray the fact that he’s the dominant figure in the household and what he says goes. And it was obviously done with a calmer mind than just someone who gets pissed and smacks their kid. He had him gear up for christ’s sake so he had protection from getting hurt.
Yes this might not be the best form of discipline for all households since sometimes the kid can beat up the parent but in this case its what he chose for HIS child and its what works for him. We’re discussing this specific incident so don’t bring up what works for most people.
And I’m saying all this as a still quite young man who grew up in the suburbs. I grew up in a town full of pot heads and partiers and you know what a good chunk of the parents do around here? They enable this behavior through providing alcohol and places to consume said alcohol and drugs.
I notice a complete lack of punishment with my generation (myself included) and honestly I’m worried for when we grow up and take control of the world. Kid’s drink and drive, smoke weed, pop pills, deal drugs, etc, etc and you know what they do after? Throw pictures of themselves doing this stuff up on Facebook…Post statuses bragging about all the shit they’re doing and where they’re doing it…and other kids comment and tell them how cool what they’re doing is and brag about the shit that they did themselves. I’m not ignorant enough to think the older generations didn’t do any drugs or drink at all but they didn’t display it for everyone to see cuz they had fear of their parents and what would happen if they found out.[/quote]
Good post. I have noticed the avoidance of discussing the lack of discipline lately. Yeah, for the average angry parent who doesn’t live and breath fighting this may seem odd…but this is a far cry from CHILD ABUSE and is really starting to butt in on whether you can actually raise your own kids the way you see fit.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yeah, for the average angry parent who doesn’t live and breath fighting this may seem odd…but this is a far cry from CHILD ABUSE and is really starting to butt in on whether you can actually raise your own kids the way you see fit.[/quote]
if “rasing your child the way you see fit” includes putting on gloves and punching them in the face as a form of punishment for lying to you then “butting in” on how to raise your kids is 100% appropriate.
Good post. I have noticed the avoidance of discussing the lack of discipline lately. Yeah, for the average angry parent who doesn’t live and breath fighting this may seem odd…but this is a far cry from CHILD ABUSE and is really starting to butt in on whether you can actually raise your own kids the way you see fit.[/quote]
A perceived lack of discipline isn’t relevant to the discussion here. This isn’t a discussion about whether or not kids are receiving enough discipline. It’s about whether or not boxing with your son is an appropriate form of discipline.
We could take this to the logical extreme and say that it’s OK for a parent to beat up their child as long as they are wearing gloves and pull their punches. What if he broke the kids nose because the kid dodged just the right way to make solid contact? Would this still be OK in your eyes? What if they were using bats instead of fists?
I’m trying hard to understand what part of “as a father you shouldn’t need to resort to violence to discipline your kids” is not logical to those arguing that he’s OK for this episode.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yeah, for the average angry parent who doesn’t live and breath fighting this may seem odd…but this is a far cry from CHILD ABUSE and is really starting to butt in on whether you can actually raise your own kids the way you see fit.[/quote]
if “rasing your child the way you see fit” includes putting on gloves and punching them in the face as a form of punishment for lying to you then “butting in” on how to raise your kids is 100% appropriate.[/quote]
Right, because having a kid gear up with gloves and protective gear is somehow ABUSING a kid who likely grew up doing this on a regular basis.
That’s a tad different than uncontrollably punching a kid in the face. That isn’t what happened. Had a professional fighter punched that kid directly in the face with force the kid would not have a SLIGHTLY BLOODY NOSE.
He was disciplined. You don’t agree with how. Good for you.
Right, because having a kid gear up with gloves and protective gear is somehow ABUSING a kid who likely grew up doing this on a regular basis.
That’s a tad different than uncontrollably punching a kid in the face. That isn’t what happened. Had a professional fighter punched that kid directly in the face with force the kid would not have a SLIGHTLY BLOODY NOSE.
He was disciplined. You don’t agree with how. Good for you.
That doesn’t make it CHILD ABUSE.[/quote]
No, that’s not exactly what happened. He didn’t say “hey, let’s get in the ring because I want to teach you some moves” he took him in the ring because he wanted to punish him. There’s a world of difference between the two scenarios.
So yes, I think that picking a fight with your 16 year old son for the sake of discipline does run into the realm of child abuse.
You guys must have some of the best kids in the world because I know some true fuckups who should feel very lucky that I’m not their father.
And there’s a lot of talk about, you should discuss this with the kid and help them understand the error of their ways - Well Some just don’t GET that. I’m also hard pressed to think that this kid from the op is going to be assessing the value of the lesson. His take away is going to be: don’t fuck with dad cuz he will fuck me up. Sometimes (not saying this needs to be a regular occurance) but sometimes this is a lesson that needs to be learned.
Its the same lesson that we all need to learn somewhere along the way - don’t fuck with so n so cuz he/it will fuck me up. How many times do we have topics about how the cops beat the shit out of some dude for a traffic stop? Somewhere along the way the vic didn’t learn that whether you agree or not doesn’t matter, you need to shut up or get fucked up. Valuable lesson. Very Valuable.
[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
You guys must have some of the best kids in the world because I know some true fuckups who should feel very lucky that I’m not their father.
And there’s a lot of talk about, you should discuss this with the kid and help them understand the error of their ways - Well Some just don’t GET that. I’m also hard pressed to think that this kid from the op is going to be assessing the value of the lesson. His take away is going to be: don’t fuck with dad cuz he will fuck me up. Sometimes (not saying this needs to be a regular occurance) but sometimes this is a lesson that needs to be learned.
Its the same lesson that we all need to learn somewhere along the way - don’t fuck with so n so cuz he/it will fuck me up. How many times do we have topics about how the cops beat the shit out of some dude for a traffic stop? Somewhere along the way the vic didn’t learn that whether you agree or not doesn’t matter, you need to shut up or get fucked up. Valuable lesson. Very Valuable.[/quote]
LMAO! Sometimes, a beatdown is very much necessary.
[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
You guys must have some of the best kids in the world because I know some true fuckups who should feel very lucky that I’m not their father.
And there’s a lot of talk about, you should discuss this with the kid and help them understand the error of their ways - Well Some just don’t GET that. I’m also hard pressed to think that this kid from the op is going to be assessing the value of the lesson. His take away is going to be: don’t fuck with dad cuz he will fuck me up. Sometimes (not saying this needs to be a regular occurance) but sometimes this is a lesson that needs to be learned.
Its the same lesson that we all need to learn somewhere along the way - don’t fuck with so n so cuz he/it will fuck me up. How many times do we have topics about how the cops beat the shit out of some dude for a traffic stop? Somewhere along the way the vic didn’t learn that whether you agree or not doesn’t matter, you need to shut up or get fucked up. Valuable lesson. Very Valuable.[/quote]
LMAO! Sometimes, a beatdown is very much necessary. [/quote]
I swear some of the people responding must have the best acting kids in the world because I know some that won’t be affected by a time out or a good talking to. They need to do some exchange where some of these guys go take care of a family in the projects where the kids get all of their meals at school on free lunch.
I am assuming these responses are because they don’t believe in ANY physical discipline at all.
I am not sure why discussing the LACK of discipline lately is being avoided.
Good post. I have noticed the avoidance of discussing the lack of discipline lately. Yeah, for the average angry parent who doesn’t live and breath fighting this may seem odd…but this is a far cry from CHILD ABUSE and is really starting to butt in on whether you can actually raise your own kids the way you see fit.[/quote]
A perceived lack of discipline isn’t relevant to the discussion here. This isn’t a discussion about whether or not kids are receiving enough discipline. It’s about whether or not boxing with your son is an appropriate form of discipline.
We could take this to the logical extreme and say that it’s OK for a parent to beat up their child as long as they are wearing gloves and pull their punches. What if he broke the kids nose because the kid dodged just the right way to make solid contact? Would this still be OK in your eyes? What if they were using bats instead of fists?
I’m trying hard to understand what part of “as a father you shouldn’t need to resort to violence to discipline your kids” is not logical to those arguing that he’s OK for this episode.
james[/quote]
thank you for popping this obviously fallacious balloon.
then again, not many here would make the debate team.
[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
Its the same lesson that we all need to learn somewhere along the way - don’t fuck with so n so cuz he/it will fuck me up. How many times do we have topics about how the cops beat the shit out of some dude for a traffic stop? Somewhere along the way the vic didn’t learn that whether you agree or not doesn’t matter, you need to shut up or get fucked up. Valuable lesson. Very Valuable.[/quote]
LMAO! Sometimes, a beatdown is very much necessary. [/quote]
I swear some of the people responding must have the best acting kids in the world because I know some that won’t be affected by a time out or a good talking to. They need to do some exchange where some of these guys go take care of a family in the projects where the kids get all of their meals at school on free lunch.
I am assuming these responses are because they don’t believe in ANY physical discipline at all.
I am not sure why discussing the LACK of discipline lately is being avoided.[/quote]
so are you guys really defending the police officers who are out there in these vids “fucking up” guys?
So that’s a valuable lesson? That means that you hope they never charge those cops because according to you guys its just a valuable lesson that everyone should learn.
[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
Its the same lesson that we all need to learn somewhere along the way - don’t fuck with so n so cuz he/it will fuck me up. How many times do we have topics about how the cops beat the shit out of some dude for a traffic stop? Somewhere along the way the vic didn’t learn that whether you agree or not doesn’t matter, you need to shut up or get fucked up. Valuable lesson. Very Valuable.[/quote]
LMAO! Sometimes, a beatdown is very much necessary. [/quote]
I swear some of the people responding must have the best acting kids in the world because I know some that won’t be affected by a time out or a good talking to. They need to do some exchange where some of these guys go take care of a family in the projects where the kids get all of their meals at school on free lunch.
I am assuming these responses are because they don’t believe in ANY physical discipline at all.
I am not sure why discussing the LACK of discipline lately is being avoided.[/quote]
so are you guys really defending the police officers who out there in these vids “fucking up” guys?
So that’s a valuable lesson? That means that you hope they never charge those cops because according to you guys its just a valuable lesson that everyone should learn.
The report said “a slightly bloody nose” but he coulda been “fucked up.” How many times have you seen a fight (boxing/MMA-admittedly I watch a lot more MMA than boxing) where a guy is getting his ass kicked but doesnt look like he just got whacked in the face with a baseball bat. It happens. Coulda been the case with this kid, especially since they were reportedly using 16oz gloves.
Either way Lou referenced the “valuable lesson” that this kid learned and that it was “dont mess with so n so or you’ll get fucked up” (just like in those police beat down vids) and you agreed. So I asked if you were really defending those cops now?
I already know that you’re stance/side/argument in this thread holds no water, so to speak, and that you’re basically arguing to argue at this point but I really couldnt believe that you’re now defending the cops in the youtube videos.
[quote]gregron wrote:
^^I never said he was but you dont know that.[/quote]
? I know the news reported that the officers said his condition was “a slightly bloody nose”. You don’t write that if someone is FUCKED UP.
[quote]
The report said “a slightly bloody nose” but he coulda been “fucked up.” How many times have you seen a fight (boxing/MMA-admittedly I watch a lot more MMA than boxing) where a guy is getting his ass kicked but doesnt look like he just got whacked in the face with a baseball bat. It happens. Coulda been the case with this kid, especially since they were reportedly using 16oz gloves.[/quote]
Wow. Really? So, you think the cops walked in, saw blood all over the carpet and walls and ignored it all to write, “slightly blood nose” just so readers wouldn’t get upset?
LOL
I mean, really? LOL at he could have been fucked up.
[quote]
Either way Lou referenced the “valuable lesson” that this kid learned and that it was “dont mess with so n so or you’ll get fucked up” (just like in those police beat down vids) and you agreed. So I asked if you were really defending those cops now? [/quote]
I’m sorry, what? Cops are not my parents. Cops are men and I happen to be a grown man also…so no, I don’t expect a cop to treat me like my parents would.
[quote]
We already know that you’re stance/side/argument in this thread holds no water, so to speak, and that you’re basically arguing to argue at this point but I really couldnt believe that you’re now defending the cops in the youtube videos.[/quote]
You’re stretching. My point is, unless there is lasting physical or emotional damage, you can NOT claim child abuse.
That IS a solid point whether you want to admit it or not.
