Boxing with Son is Child Abuse? Really?

Off Topic
221

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFE. There are people who break into houses and steal also. Imagine what it would be like if there was no fear of the consequences.[/quote]

The vast majority of break ins go unsolved.[/quote]

?Point?

[quote]
he guys doing these crimes aren’t scared of the consequences.[/quote]

Bullshit. It takes a good thief an estimated 15min to break into a house if they’ve been watching it. If they don’t get caught, it isn’t because they don’t fear getting caught. They are that good BECAUSE they fear getting caught.

?

No, I don’t because it is a parent’s job to RAISE a kid. It is not a cop’s job to RAISE a criminal and teach them.

222

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFE. There are people who break into houses and steal also. Imagine what it would be like if there was no fear of the consequences.[/quote]

The vast majority of break ins go unsolved. Essentially there are no consequences in these cases. In fact I think I’ve read where maybe 1 in 10 cases ever get solved. The guys doing these crimes aren’t scared of the consequences. They might be scared of the consequences of going into a particular house (gun owner or big dog) but they certainly aren’t scared of stealing. My point in all of this is that you want to raise kids who won’t steal not kids who won’t steal in one particular house. See the difference?

james
[/quote]
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss.

223

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFE. There are people who break into houses and steal also. Imagine what it would be like if there was no fear of the consequences.[/quote]

The vast majority of break ins go unsolved. Essentially there are no consequences in these cases. In fact I think I’ve read where maybe 1 in 10 cases ever get solved. The guys doing these crimes aren’t scared of the consequences. They might be scared of the consequences of going into a particular house (gun owner or big dog) but they certainly aren’t scared of stealing. My point in all of this is that you want to raise kids who won’t steal not kids who won’t steal in one particular house. See the difference?

james
[/quote]
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss. [/quote]

You had me at Snowflake.

224

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The Fear and Children thing is a fine line.

You can use Fear as a tool to avoid danger. If you see a kid going for a light socket with a fork you yell and tell them NO. If the kid tries it again you may smack his ass or hand to let give him something else to worry about over his “wonder” of the light socket.

That works but so much. After the child is old enough to reason with YOU MUST have something else in the mix.

I don’t want my child to FEAR me.

I want him to FEAR disappointing me.

[/quote]

I am sure in a perfect world, no one here wants their kid afraid of them, but the world isn’t perfect…and not every kid is going to reach becoming some model citizen if you avoid any and all physical discipline.

In this case, the dad (who is someone talented enough to be called a PRO) disciplined his kid in an activity the dad could not lose at. That isn’t bad parenting…or at least it wasn’t before people started laughing at “spare the rod, spoil the child”.[/quote]

This dad was not just trying to lay out discipline. If you need to compete or in this case give the child the idea that its a compitition for dominance over the house Then you as the parent have already lost control.

[/quote]

So the next step is what? You don’t know any more about this family than I do so assuming all hope was already lost is a huge stretch. You simply don’t like the way he did it.

Fine.

But why the hell is it ok for you to stop him when no lasting damage occurred?

If you’ve lost control as a parent, I would assume you would try to get it back if you loved them.[/quote]

If the dad was fighting for control of the house we need to call it that.
Fighting to get back what you think you lost is not discipline.

As for the cops being involved. I think the fact he only got a ticket means they seen it for what it was. If they thought it was abuse I assume they would have taken him in.

225

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFE. There are people who break into houses and steal also. Imagine what it would be like if there was no fear of the consequences.[/quote]

The vast majority of break ins go unsolved. Essentially there are no consequences in these cases. In fact I think I’ve read where maybe 1 in 10 cases ever get solved. The guys doing these crimes aren’t scared of the consequences. They might be scared of the consequences of going into a particular house (gun owner or big dog) but they certainly aren’t scared of stealing. My point in all of this is that you want to raise kids who won’t steal not kids who won’t steal in one particular house. See the difference?

james
[/quote]
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss. [/quote]

Bingo.

226

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The Fear and Children thing is a fine line.

You can use Fear as a tool to avoid danger. If you see a kid going for a light socket with a fork you yell and tell them NO. If the kid tries it again you may smack his ass or hand to let give him something else to worry about over his “wonder” of the light socket.

That works but so much. After the child is old enough to reason with YOU MUST have something else in the mix.

I don’t want my child to FEAR me.

I want him to FEAR disappointing me.

[/quote]

I am sure in a perfect world, no one here wants their kid afraid of them, but the world isn’t perfect…and not every kid is going to reach becoming some model citizen if you avoid any and all physical discipline.

In this case, the dad (who is someone talented enough to be called a PRO) disciplined his kid in an activity the dad could not lose at. That isn’t bad parenting…or at least it wasn’t before people started laughing at “spare the rod, spoil the child”.[/quote]

This dad was not just trying to lay out discipline. If you need to compete or in this case give the child the idea that its a compitition for dominance over the house Then you as the parent have already lost control.

[/quote]

So the next step is what? You don’t know any more about this family than I do so assuming all hope was already lost is a huge stretch. You simply don’t like the way he did it.

Fine.

But why the hell is it ok for you to stop him when no lasting damage occurred?

If you’ve lost control as a parent, I would assume you would try to get it back if you loved them.[/quote]

If the dad was fighting for control of the house we need to call it that.
Fighting to get back what you think you lost is not discipline.

As for the cops being involved. I think the fact he only got a ticket means they seen it for what it was. If they thought it was abuse I assume they would have taken him in.
[/quote]

…and my point from the beginning has been if it isn’t abuse, why the hell is anyone else trying to tell him how to raise his kids or that he did it wrong?

None of us have lived in his house. His son may have deserved every punch he got.

227

[quote]four60 wrote:

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT… Relaxed is not the word I would use.

I’m saying if I need to prove to my kid that I’m stronger or faster than him to be in charge I have already LOST.
I’m in charge becuase you need me. I’m in charge because I know more than you about countless things. I’m in charge because I’m your parent and you are the child. And I need to push that into the child from day 1 not year 16.

If I’m making this sound like a duck walk then I’m not saying it right. Don’t for a second think I have never said the words “the day you raise your hands to me is the day you’re old enough to fend for yourself”.

I don’t play this negotiation BS I see parents doing. Please stop. PLEASE STOP??? You lay out your law and the kid breaks it now the kid gets to bargin his way through it with you. FUCK THAT.

And I’m not going to just lay out punishment without explaining why this shit is happening to you. Also I’m not holding a grudge after. I love you and I want you to understand why you have to go thru this punishment but even if you don’t we will talk AFTER BUT YOUR ASS IS STILL BEING PUNISHED.[/quote]

Points taken.

I guess each parent is different with the way he or she brings the child up.

Alexander had a different technique (Alexander’s technique, lol) , which you don’t agree with, obviously. And of course now, he is charged with child abuse, which I don’t think is fair.

228

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
…If you need to compete or in this case give the child the idea that its a compitition for dominance over the house Then you as the parent have already lost control.

[/quote]

But how do you know it was about competition for dominance over the house?

And please don’t use my earlier dialogue as evidence…

On a serious note, we have no idea what was said before they boxed, apart from what had been reported, ‘‘you lied to me, let’s box’’ or something in that sense.

It’d be funny if after all this, his son turns out to be a timid young man instead of the rebellious 16 yo we had in mind.

[/quote]

Many of us left the news article a while ago. We are going on the IDEA of Discipline/punishment with kids now. I always said I think the dad was just trying to do his best with what he had. I just don’t agree with Boxing or Competing with a child as a form of punishment.

Its all dif Ideas being bounced around I agree with some and some I don’t.

I’m not totally against spanking a kid. But a 16yr old is not a kid but a pre-adult. I don’t think the belt is going to get the same results. At 16 he already knows he is wrong and if he does not the belt will only hurt him not tell him why. Either way at that age I need to be able to reach my kid beyond pain. I want him to worry about my feelings like I worry about him. And like I said this all starts from day one. At 16 if the kid does not already:

Trust me to tell the truth
Trust That I love him
Trust that I’m doing things For him not against him
Trust that I will stand firm

Then I fucked up some place down the line and now I have some thinking to do to hopefully fix shit.

229

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss. [/quote]

LOL…I hear you. But a 16 year old is old enough to understand about accountability or consequences for his actions. And if they aren’t mature enough to understand about accountability or consequences then is hitting them really a great way of teaching that to them? I mean this is supposed to be all about teaching the kid not showing them who’s boss.

james

230

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss. [/quote]

LOL…I hear you. But a 16 year old is old enough to understand about accountability or consequences for his actions. And if they aren’t mature enough to understand about accountability or consequences then is hitting them really a great way of teaching that to them? I mean this is supposed to be all about teaching the kid not showing them who’s boss.

james

[/quote]

?

Showing them who’s boss is EXACTLY the lesson many 16 year old boys need.

231

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss. [/quote]

LOL…I hear you. But a 16 year old is old enough to understand about accountability or consequences for his actions. And if they aren’t mature enough to understand about accountability or consequences then is hitting them really a great way of teaching that to them? I mean this is supposed to be all about teaching the kid not showing them who’s boss.

james

[/quote]

Some kids, especially around that age need a reminder. If you have done a good job up to that point it maybe effective. I personally responded well to shame. Once my friends and I got stealing and as punishment from our school we had to work at the school during summer vacation painting. My parents made me call my grandmother and tell her what I did, that had a much longer lasting effect then the work. That being said, I have known friends that getting their ass handed to the by their dad or just a random stranger is what finally got through.

232

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Showing them who’s boss is EXACTLY the lesson many 16 year old boys need.[/quote]

I agree with that. But you’re not showing them who’s boss by punching them. You’re showing them that if you’re stronger or a better fighter then you can be in charge. So his son goes and gets a gun. Is he now in charge of the family? I mean he’s now tougher than his dad right?

Dad’s outnumbered 6 to 1. He can’t fight every kid to show he’s in charge because at some point they simply will overwhelm him. So I’ll ask the question again. When Jr is on his own in two years how well will the lesson of “might makes right” serve him?

I’m trying to understand your perspective about fear driving motivation. You’re a big guy now so maybe you see a difference in the way you are treated from when you were smaller to now. Do you percieve that people are scared of you and thus treat you better because of that fear? Have you read some studies that I haven’t showing that fear is something that should be used to motivate children or teenagers? Because from my perspective fear is a terrible motivator and only breeds distrust and the second that you’re out of the situation that’s causing the fear then the behavior goes back to where it was originally.

james

233

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
Fear has been lost in raising kids. This is why, I feel, there are so many of my peers who are so fearless or walking around not giving a fuck. They haven’t been shown real limits, I.e. you will be left seeing stars and blood if you cross people.[/quote]

It’s a lack of respect that causing what you see with your peers not a lack of fear. It’s not supposed to be about teaching your kid that they aren’t the biggest and the baddest because I think they already know that. It’s about teaching them to have enough respect for others that they don’t do the things that cause them to get into trouble.

Are they going to push the limits? Of course they are. Then it’s a matter of reinforcing the respect lesson. It’s not about teaching them fear.

james
[/quote]

?

Our entire society works because of fear. People don’t avoid speeding because they all want to be nice and drive slower. They avoid it because they FEAR the ticket. Yes, your kids need some level of fear when it comes to going against their parents.

You avoid slapping your boss because you FEAR losing your job.

And please, save us from twisting that into acting like it means you need to make your kids wet themselves when you walk in the door.

The concept of fear in terms of respect is all through out the Bible.[/quote]

They don’t FEAR being ticketed. SMFH

When people consciously make a decision to obey a law, they are making an economic decision about the CONSEQUENCES - the cost. “Cost” can be monetary or otherwise.

234

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^

If Tiger Wood’s kids challenge him one day and he takes them to a golf course to teach them who is boss, he is parenting wrong?
[/quote]

Dumbest irrelevant analogy EVER. And I’m not even trying to insult you. I’m trying to be nice.

Are you fucking serious? Did you just make a comparison between physically dominating your son in a fight and playing golf?

Tell me you’re fucking trolling b/c at this point I’ll even believe RV is your alternate account.

235

[quote]Professor X wrote:
and not every kid is going to reach becoming some model citizen if you avoid any and all physical discipline. [/quote]

and not every kid is going to reach becoming a model citizen if you employ physical discipline.

there are millions of children that were raised without any physical punishment who turned out to be well-adjusted productive adults.

however, you cannot say the same thing about children that were physically punished. physical abuse, corporal punishment is a common theme in troubled adults’ childhoods. and although a kid that wasn’t physically punished can grow up to be a fuck-up, there is no comparison between the two.

other than violence or physical punishment being a common background of troubled adults, about the best you could claim is a COMPLETE LACK OF DISCIPLINE OR SUPERVISION - but LACK OF DISCIPLINE DOES NOT EQUAL LACK OF CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. And you are implying this.

use it at your own risk.

236

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Our entire society works because of fear. People don’t avoid speeding because they all want to be nice and drive slower. They avoid it because they FEAR the ticket. Yes, your kids need some level of fear when it comes to going against their parents.

You avoid slapping your boss because you FEAR losing your job.

And please, save us from twisting that into acting like it means you need to make your kids wet themselves when you walk in the door.

The concept of fear in terms of respect is all through out the Bible.[/quote]

Speeding is a great example to use. If you know you’re not going to get caught then you’re going to speed if the only thing you’re scared about is the ticket. There’s some really empty stretches of road out here and some really nice canyons that people speed on because they know that law enforcement is not going to be present. That tells me that fear of tickets only goes so far and only works in certain situations.

I avoid slapping my co-workers out of respect for myself not because I fear losing my job. In fact slapping my co-workers doesn’t really enter into my mind as a course of action when I’m frustrated and angry. My three year old lashes out like that but he’s still learning how to control his emotions.

Fear isn’t as great as a motivator as you think it is. There are a lot of examples of people doing things despite being scared of the consequences. In this case do you really think that his son will stop lying to him simply because he’s scared of his dad? Maybe so but in two years when he leaves home will he still be lying to his dad? What about his relationships with other people? Does boxing your dad and teaching him to fear you benefit his relationships with other people? Does it make him a better citizen? Does it teach him to not lie to other people? His teachers can’t fight him so does that mean he can lie to them? I mean there’s no repercussions right?

james
[/quote]

it’s not fear as I’ve already illustrated.

humans make economic decisions in the strictest sense. they don’t often make the right ones, but information is often limited and humans are irrational.

those that obey the speed limit have done the calculus that the COST (fine, court cost, insurance, points) outweighs the benefit of speeding. those that speed when they believe no LEO is around have down the calculus that they believe the RISK of speeding at that point is decreased and hence the COST is lower.

it’s not FEAR.

you’re responding to an ill-informed and illogical argument. you cannot have an intelligent debate with someone that cannot grasp these simple concepts. you just can’t.

237

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^Agreed…which is why no one can claim it is WRONG to teach your kid who is boss by boxing with him when you are a world class professional.

If Tiger Wood’s kids challenge him one day and he takes them to a golf course to teach them who is boss, he is parenting wrong?

The ONLY valid argument here is if you are simply against all physical discipline…otherwise, let parents raise their own freaking kids and maybe we will get loss self entitled teenagers who think they can talk back to every teacher or person of authority because they have no fear of the consequences.

And again…we tried to discuss this all at first.[/quote]

Had a funny interaction with some 14-15yr old kids at the movie theater over Christmas. My wife and I went to see Hugo in 3d. The movie is about to start and these two boys come in and sit behind us. The one leans forward and starts talking to me. " hey can I borrow your movie ticket my friend threw ours out and the lady at the front said we can’t come back in without it. I want to get a drink." I replied, “sorry I am not going to give you my ticket.” It was clear to me that they were sneaking into the film and wanted my ticket to go get glasses. He replies with some attitude, “why can’t you just give me you ticket?” So I asked him if he had his 3G glasses? He says I asked you a damn question.
I couldn’t believe my ears. I am 30 years old 5"10 252lbs at the moment with slightly over 18 inch arms. Clearly not in his age group and not one of his buddies. So I stood up leaned over the seat and very nicely asked him if he could see how big I was. My wife begging me to ignore it and that I was over reacting only help confirm to these boys that they may have just made a big mistake. The kid that swore at me nodded yes confirming he saw how big I was, I asked if he thought he should be careful how he spoke to me? He looked confused, so I said you swore at me didn’t you? Yes, I am sorry i shouldn’t have done that he replied. I said ok but you are not as smart as you think or I am not as dumb as you thought. I sat back down, they quietly got up and left.
The fact that he thought he was going to get over on me, the theater, and that when called on it he thought he could curse at me to intimidate me is what pissed me off. I would have never spoke to any adult, especially one my size in that way when I was in high school. [/quote]

Your wife is right. You did over-react.

And did you really need to provide your body measurements to describe your encounter with teenagers?

And please bring that shit around my way where a teenager don’t give a fuck how big you are and will have you chalked on the sidewalk. For real.

238

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFE. There are people who break into houses and steal also. Imagine what it would be like if there was no fear of the consequences.[/quote]

The vast majority of break ins go unsolved. Essentially there are no consequences in these cases. In fact I think I’ve read where maybe 1 in 10 cases ever get solved. The guys doing these crimes aren’t scared of the consequences. They might be scared of the consequences of going into a particular house (gun owner or big dog) but they certainly aren’t scared of stealing. My point in all of this is that you want to raise kids who won’t steal not kids who won’t steal in one particular house. See the difference?

james
[/quote]

you’re still responding to his ill-informed and fallacious arguments.

there is no FEAR of the law. only a weighing of consequences.

if there was FEAR of the law, the death penalty would reduce homicides. it does not or, the data is conflicted.

this is the silliest and most unintelligent “debate” i’ve seen in a while.

239

[quote]Professor X wrote:
His son may have deserved every punch he got.[/quote]

MOST UNINTELLIGENT THING EVER UTTERED ON THIS SITE.

AND THAT’S SAYING A LOT.

240

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
I agree. The point is that until a child is mature enough to understand accountability or consequences for actions fear is a huge motivator. does it always have to be physical punishment to get or eliminate a behavior? Hopefully not but for some it is more effective then others. every child is a snow flake completely different from the next, and some of those snowflakes need to get their ass kicked to know who is the boss. [/quote]

LOL…I hear you. But a 16 year old is old enough to understand about accountability or consequences for his actions. And if they aren’t mature enough to understand about accountability or consequences then is hitting them really a great way of teaching that to them? I mean this is supposed to be all about teaching the kid not showing them who’s boss.

james

[/quote]

Some kids, especially around that age need a reminder. If you have done a good job up to that point it maybe effective. I personally responded well to shame. Once my friends and I got stealing and as punishment from our school we had to work at the school during summer vacation painting. My parents made me call my grandmother and tell her what I did, that had a much longer lasting effect then the work. That being said, I have known friends that getting their ass handed to the by their dad or just a random stranger is what finally got through.
[/quote]

just imagine if their father’s had arms just a bit over 18" and none of that “ass handing” would have been necessary.

amiright?