“However, it would have some carryover to the snatch/C&J because of the posterior chain work you get as a result. So, while a powerlifting style box squat probably wouldn’t be the best way to drive up your olympic squat, it still would benefit the olympic lifts.”
This is exactly what I was speculating about in my last post. The effect the posterior chain strength developed through box squatting would have on the competition lifts.
[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
Does this sound like something benefit to snatch/C&J?
The only part of that article I disagree with is that he says you will be able to free squat more than you box squat by only training the box squat. It’s applicable to geared lifters but raw lifters are different. In fact, when most Westside Barbell members are answering questions about how strong their raw squat is, I’ve only ever seen them answer how strong their raw box squat is. I have to assume this is because their raw box squat max is heavier than their raw free squat max.
[/quote]
From everything I’ve read about Westside, mostly from Louie Simmons and Dave Tate, my assumption was that Westside lifters didn’t do any raw free squatting in their competition style. They do raw box squats generally as speed work, and then they have a max effort lower body day where they work up to a heavy set on movements other than their competition squat (e.g. cambered bar squat, safety bar squat, etc). Slightly different movement, but same muscles targeted. So the impression I get is that they don’t really have an accurate raw free squat number to tell anybody, not that their box squat numbers are higher.
Also, this is just me guessing here because I haven’t done a free power squat in a long time, just box squats, but I would think that your free power squat should be slightly higher than your box squat because you get a little bit of rebound out of the hole, something you don’t get any of in a box squat. I’ll have to test my free power squat one of these days and find out what the difference is for me.
With the box squat, you’re able to utilize a wider stance, sit back farther and incorporate more of the posterior chain than would be possible if the box were not there. That’s why you can box squat more than you can free squat. I’d bet anything that every member at Westside squats more with a powerlifting stance to a parallel box raw than they free squat raw to a depth that would pass in a row competition.
If you box squat with the exact same technique as you free squat, then yeah it won’t be as strong but then you’re missing the point of box squatting. Squatting more without the box only applies to geared lifters. Also, members of Westside do box squat raw with their competition stance sometimes in training. I have no idea why you would think they wouldn’t, but their speed work is usually done in briefs.
In all the years I’ve been either coing or competing in olympic lifting and powerlifting, I’ve never heard of any big breakthrough in squatting coming from using boxes. Personnally, I think they are useless and possibly dangerous.
Most sticking points in squatting come from improper form on either the descent or the ascent or, simply, a lack of muscle. Sitting down on a chair is not going to help either.
Now, using a guide like an elastic cord or a med ball to cue beginners about when their butts are low enough can be helpful to some. But, after that, good form and smart work will result in better squatting.
It would seem to me that Olympic Lifters would have about as much call to include Box Squats as they would to include Deadlifts or Bench Press.
In my personal experience Box Squats with a box 1 to 2 inches above parallel always carried over to my Deadlift better than Squats or Front Squats. So if you’re weak somewhere between the floor and below your knees you could give Box Squats a try instead of doing old standbys such as Clean-Grip Deads, Snatch-Grip Deads, or Power Shrugs.
But Louie’s assessment of the Olympic Lifts is pretty off. First of all, it’s important that Olympic Lifters do their full-range, ass-to-grass squats because that’s the kind of squat they’ll be doing in the full lifts. While going ass-to-grass isn’t necessary for every athlete, since olympic lifters will be diving down in the bucket to reduce the distance they have to pull the bar, they’ll need to stay strong in that rock bottom position.
Second, the Quads are immensely important in the vertical jump and in the final pull of any Olympic Lift. You just won’t develop the requisite quad strength from Box Squatting that you will from Squats and Front Squats.
Finally, it can be good to put some big weights on your back. If a weightlifter is only doing Squats with 150k and Cleans with 120k then those are the heaviest weights he’s exposing himself to. You can see how it would be good for him to work up to a 200k Box Squat if for no other reason than to handle some bigger weight and shock his nervous system.
The Box Squat is a good lift that will get you strong. Glenn Pendlay has his weightlifters do Box Squats occasionally. And since box squats are less stressful than squats on your recovery, you can do them more often. They obviously aren’t as important as Power Cleans, Power Snatches, Squats, and Front Squats but Box Squats still deserve a place in your Toolbox alongside Deadlifts, Good-Mornings, and Bench Press.
Inexperienced or not, if you have a substancial load on your shoulders and you either come down too fast or lose your balance or cramp, etc., a hard suface in the mid range of the motion is not what I want under my lifters.
Additionally, if you lose a weight, which we all have, and you have to spring out the front or back, that gives the lifter an escape route. If a box is there, it could easily inhibit the move you have to make to get safely out from under. Plus, where might the bar go if it hits the box.
I’ve dropped more than a few squats, olympic and powerlifting style in my day, and have never been injured doing it. Part of the reason is that I know pretty much where the bar is going to end up. I’d rather not have surprises about that when I’m getting out from under.
Plus, as I said, I know of nobody who ever got better at full range squatting by using boxes. I don’t see a good risk/reward ratio in adding them to a program.
Scott, do you think people (weightlifters) should:
alternate between benching and pressing, or
if pressing is the more important exercise, modify their program so benching can be supplemented?
My training sessions usually consist of:
snatch/c&j
pull
press
squat
GM/hyperextension
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As a weightlifter you don’t need to bench press. The only people who NEED to bench press are powerlifters since it’s a competition lift. Well, maybe powerlifters and shot putters. Plenty of great weightlifters have trained themselves without benching. Hell, the press isn’t even necessary in your training. It’s a good exercise but you don’t need to do it.
The bench will have you doing some things that pressing wont. When you bench you’ll be able to handle weights closer to those that you can jerk. John Broz said in a video interview he had one of the lightweight girls he coaches Bench because her upper body was so weak, but once she developed enough upper body strength he switched her over to just doing the Olympic Lifts and Squats. Broz also said when his star lifters Pat and Rob began lifting with him they had weak upper backs so in the beginning stages of their training they did rows and chins until their backs where strong enough that all they had do to was the Olympic Lifts and Squats.
The best way to get better at something is to do it. Benching will never improve your Jerk as much as doing Jerks will. So only Bench as much as you need to at this point in your training. That might mean benching twice a week. That might mean benching once a month or once every 6 months just to gauge your raw upper body strength.
[quote]Paperclip wrote:
Thanks, scott, I thought you’re saying that weightlifters could benefit from benching (which is yes, but not my point).
How do I gauge if I have sufficient upper body strength, or need to bench? My numbers are (approximated):
squat 100kg
bench 70kg (?)
press 50kg (?)
snatch 60kg
c&j 70kg
BW 68kg
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Looks fine imo.
I C&J 120 with a press of about 60kg @ 77kg.
Just do military press on Mondays after squats once a week. After 6-8 weeks switch it BP or something. Don’t over analyse things. Just smash it in training.
Little bro
F squat 115kg, haven’t seen him Back heavy in a while, at least 122-125 I’d say
bench 65kg
press Doubt he could press 45kg
snatch 71kg
c&j 91kg @60kg
me
201kg
bench 135kg : I rarely BP, but I am good at push ups and dips
Thanks for the numbers, Koing! BTW with a bodyweight of 89kg, where are you competing at, 85 or 94kg class? Seems to be an awkward number.
I tried doing box FRONT squatting today but with the box far below at the bottom (because I thought there my sticking point is), and it basically didn’t alter the way I squat. But when my butt touches the box and I relax, my torso wants to become upright (like sitting on a chair). Do you let your torso to become upright when sitting on the box or should you keep the form?
[quote]Paperclip wrote:
Thanks for the numbers, Koing! BTW with a bodyweight of 89kg, where are you competing at, 85 or 94kg class? Seems to be an awkward number.
I tried doing box FRONT squatting today but with the box far below at the bottom (because I thought there my sticking point is), and it basically didn’t alter the way I squat. But when my butt touches the box and I relax, my torso wants to become upright (like sitting on a chair). Do you let your torso to become upright when sitting on the box or should you keep the form?[/quote]
I’m moving up to 94’s but I keep losing weight on holiday…lost 3kg on holiday when I was in Australia for 3 weeks…put it back on in 5 weeks then went on holiday to Cambodia for 3 weeks, lost another 3kg’s…I’ll be able to get on it properly now as I haven’t got any holidays booked.
87-88 solid and cutting to 85kg destroyed my lifts in comp I couldn’t lift well and was too drained to lift and wasted 19-20months where I made ZERO gains
116/142 was what I did 83.5 in 2007
120/145 89 @ 2009…
I don’t do box squats so I’ll wait for someone else to comment.
Probably nothing for me but I like to try new things. So far I don’t feel any benefit (though I felt it’s harder). Might try to place the box higher next time.
Probably nothing for me but I like to try new things. So far I don’t feel any benefit (though I felt it’s harder). Might try to place the box higher next time.[/quote]
Whats your goal?
Stick with one thing and get on it.
Trying new thing wastes time. The basics get you very very far mate, at least to National standard if you train enough for at least 2-3-4yrs.
I cut out the Rugby, Gymnastics, MMA to focus on the OLifting. My goal is to lift a f0ck load of weight in the Snatch and C&J.
My squats have been stuck for some time so I thought it couldn’t hurt. Also I just wanted to know how it feels ;)[/quote]
How long mate?
What reps and sets schemes have you been doing recently and in the past 3months?
Get on the Russian Squat routine. If you complete it don’t tell me your squat isn’t much improved and a lost stronger through the various reps and sets! Get on the Russian.
What reps and sets schemes have you been doing recently and in the past 3months?
Get on the Russian Squat routine. If you complete it don’t tell me your squat isn’t much improved and a lost stronger through the various reps and sets! Get on the Russian.
Koing[/quote]
Actually it’s kinda haphazard now since I stopped doing SS. Usually I do 5-6 sets with 3-4 reps each.
Yeah I did try the RSR but it never went smoothly because for one reason or another, I had to alternate the squat (front with back) in the gym.
Thankfully I think my squat is increasing although slowly.
I couldn’t lift well and was too drained to lift and wasted 19-20months where I made ZERO gains 