[quote]T-Nick wrote:
I don’t think there are any fanatical athiests out there causing any trouble, dying for any gods, punishing and suppressing free speech and doing all of the other things that alot of fanatical religious institutions do(maybe not so much in this country, but middle east in mind.)
Either way, point Im trying to make is that i don’t see any harm in having a belief(or lack) in religion as far as being an athiest.
wfifer wrote:
Funny episodes, but zealots are zealots. For the fanatical atheist, atheism becomes a religion. And that’s what causes all the trouble.
Do most people even realize the implications of atheism? Perhaps they do and use zealotry as a means of creating purpose–survival instinct at work. I find it easy to reconcile the lack of an absolute meaning in life with the survival instinct. Relative to my life, living is my purpose. Searching for anything more is silly.
[/quote]
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.[/quote]
Very true. They eliminated God so they could claim the state is supreme.
[quote]deputydawg wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
I don’t think there are any fanatical athiests out there causing any trouble, dying for any gods, punishing and suppressing free speech and doing all of the other things that alot of fanatical religious institutions do(maybe not so much in this country, but middle east in mind.)
Either way, point Im trying to make is that i don’t see any harm in having a belief(or lack) in religion as far as being an athiest.
wfifer wrote:
Funny episodes, but zealots are zealots. For the fanatical atheist, atheism becomes a religion. And that’s what causes all the trouble.
Do most people even realize the implications of atheism? Perhaps they do and use zealotry as a means of creating purpose–survival instinct at work. I find it easy to reconcile the lack of an absolute meaning in life with the survival instinct. Relative to my life, living is my purpose. Searching for anything more is silly.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.[/quote]
While that may or may not be true - they aren’t killing people IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. They simply don’t believe in God. This is irrelevant to the killing they have done. Compare to the crusades or the inquisition or the islamic extremists who kill IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AND RELIGION.
I like this quote, its from a movie “Kingdom of Heaven”.
I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
and here
[points to heart]
and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.
[quote]BlakeAE wrote:
deputydawg wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
I don’t think there are any fanatical athiests out there causing any trouble, dying for any gods, punishing and suppressing free speech and doing all of the other things that alot of fanatical religious institutions do(maybe not so much in this country, but middle east in mind.)
Either way, point Im trying to make is that i don’t see any harm in having a belief(or lack) in religion as far as being an athiest.
wfifer wrote:
Funny episodes, but zealots are zealots. For the fanatical atheist, atheism becomes a religion. And that’s what causes all the trouble.
Do most people even realize the implications of atheism? Perhaps they do and use zealotry as a means of creating purpose–survival instinct at work. I find it easy to reconcile the lack of an absolute meaning in life with the survival instinct. Relative to my life, living is my purpose. Searching for anything more is silly.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.
While that may or may not be true - they aren’t killing people IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. They simply don’t believe in God. This is irrelevant to the killing they have done. Compare to the crusades or the inquisition or the islamic extremists who kill IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AND RELIGION.
There is a huge difference.
[/quote]
They are all still just as dead. They kill in the name of their own lust for power or their utopia or whatever. Frankly, I see no difference.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.
While that may or may not be true - they aren’t killing people IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. They simply don’t believe in God. This is irrelevant to the killing they have done. Compare to the crusades or the inquisition or the islamic extremists who kill IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AND RELIGION.
There is a huge difference.
They are all still just as dead. They kill in the name of their own lust for power or their utopia or whatever. Frankly, I see no difference.
[/quote]
You tried to associate atheism with the deaths of all of those people. Its a fallacious argument.
[quote]HardcoreHorn wrote:
Prince Vegeta wrote:
John S. said he isn’t in this thread anymore, that is disappointing. We all had alot to learn from him.
Are you done being an asshole?
I didn’t think so.[/quote]
Pookie and I completely disagree on this topic as well as many others. We have exchanged several PMs. I respect him and I believe he respects me. Most of his posts are well thought out expressions of his view. I think even he would agree, though this poster seems to share his belief on this topic, that the poster has not provided a well thought out arguement that is in any way beneficial to this thread or the readers of this thread.
Thank you to HardcoreHorn for calling his hand on being rude and non productive.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.
While that may or may not be true - they aren’t killing people IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. They simply don’t believe in God. This is irrelevant to the killing they have done. Compare to the crusades or the inquisition or the islamic extremists who kill IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AND RELIGION.
There is a huge difference.
They are all still just as dead. They kill in the name of their own lust for power or their utopia or whatever. Frankly, I see no difference.
You tried to associate atheism with the deaths of all of those people. Its a fallacious argument.[/quote]
It is not totally off, though. There will always be something to be placed into that “void” - whether it is the state, God, science, logic, etc. People will always turn to something or another as the thing that provides meaning to all of us on earth.
So while I see your argument that atheists are not killing people in the name of atheism, there are certainly those who are so fanatical about being anti-religion, that they go to such extremes.
Remember, we are not talking about the peace-loving types in this thread. There are fanatics all across the board, fixing their beliefs to one thing or another and seeking to destroy all those who do not.
[quote]Kuz wrote:
It is not totally off, though. There will always be something to be placed into that “void” - whether it is the state, God, science, logic, etc. People will always turn to something or another as the thing that provides meaning to all of us on earth.
So while I see your argument that atheists are not killing people in the name of atheism, there are certainly those who are so fanatical about being anti-religion, that they go to such extremes.
[/quote]
Well, that last paragraph kind of contradicts itself. They aren’t killing in the name of atheism but there are people who go to extremes in the name of anti-religion? I disagree. Not on a large scale at any rate. A quest for power is not an anti-religion statement as could apply equally to religion or non-religion.
[quote]Kuz wrote:
Remember, we are not talking about the peace-loving types in this thread. There are fanatics all across the board, fixing their beliefs to one thing or another and seeking to destroy all those who do not.[/quote]
This I completely agree with. Which is why it does not belong in a thread about whether God exists or does not. It is a common, yet fallacious argument used by religious folks against atheism, listing all sorts of war-mongers and mass murderers who were atheist. Its irrelevant. Maybe those guys don’t drink beer, or maybe none of them brush their teeth either. We don’t say it has anything to do with their killing people.
The flip side is when the roman catholic church kills people because they don’t behave according to “God’s will” the religion is a direct motive and the argument is valid.
Having a belief in God or Gods has existed for at least as long as man figured out how to make some marks on a wall in a cave. Since there was no way to comprehend how the sun rose and set, how the moon glowed, or the good and bad weather etc., a higher power was created to expalain those phenomena.
Now, we have a pretty good understanding of so many types of sciences that I truly do not understand the belief in a higher power. Besides, whoes God do you belive in? Is yours better than someone elses?
If there is one God, why do other people believe in false Gods? Maybe, just maybe, religion was first created out of ignorance, then (now) was (is) used to control a population and gain power. It’s a pretty good business!
[quote]BlakeAE wrote:
deputydawg wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
I don’t think there are any fanatical athiests out there causing any trouble, dying for any gods, punishing and suppressing free speech and doing all of the other things that alot of fanatical religious institutions do(maybe not so much in this country, but middle east in mind.)
Either way, point Im trying to make is that i don’t see any harm in having a belief(or lack) in religion as far as being an athiest.
wfifer wrote:
Funny episodes, but zealots are zealots. For the fanatical atheist, atheism becomes a religion. And that’s what causes all the trouble.
Do most people even realize the implications of atheism? Perhaps they do and use zealotry as a means of creating purpose–survival instinct at work. I find it easy to reconcile the lack of an absolute meaning in life with the survival instinct. Relative to my life, living is my purpose. Searching for anything more is silly.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.
While that may or may not be true - they aren’t killing people IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. They simply don’t believe in God. This is irrelevant to the killing they have done. Compare to the crusades or the inquisition or the islamic extremists who kill IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AND RELIGION.
There is a huge difference.
[/quote]
The Crusades were not about killing in the name of god. They were about power, wealth and politics. Religion was the excuse.
T-Nick: I guess you forgot about Misters Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. and all of the millions and millions and millions people they killed. Fanatical atheists have been the number one all time murderers in human history period.
While that may or may not be true - they aren’t killing people IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. They simply don’t believe in God. This is irrelevant to the killing they have done. Compare to the crusades or the inquisition or the islamic extremists who kill IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD AND RELIGION.
There is a huge difference.
They are all still just as dead. They kill in the name of their own lust for power or their utopia or whatever. Frankly, I see no difference.
You tried to associate atheism with the deaths of all of those people. Its a fallacious argument.[/quote]
No it is not. Eliminating god allows them to make the state supreme and commit atrocities in the name of the state the same as some lunatics make religion supreme so they can commit atrocities in the name of god.
It is not god or lack of god doing the killings. It is evil men trying to extend their power and gullible men that believe their leaders.
Zap is right. It is not a fallacious argument. Atheism was a very important part of Communisism. Communisim is and was militant atheism. Go back read your Marx, Lenin, Mao etc.
[quote]BlakeAE wrote:
Kuz wrote:
It is not totally off, though. There will always be something to be placed into that “void” - whether it is the state, God, science, logic, etc. People will always turn to something or another as the thing that provides meaning to all of us on earth.
So while I see your argument that atheists are not killing people in the name of atheism, there are certainly those who are so fanatical about being anti-religion, that they go to such extremes.
Well, that last paragraph kind of contradicts itself. They aren’t killing in the name of atheism but there are people who go to extremes in the name of anti-religion? I disagree. Not on a large scale at any rate. A quest for power is not an anti-religion statement as could apply equally to religion or non-religion.
Kuz wrote:
Remember, we are not talking about the peace-loving types in this thread. There are fanatics all across the board, fixing their beliefs to one thing or another and seeking to destroy all those who do not.
This I completely agree with. Which is why it does not belong in a thread about whether God exists or does not. It is a common, yet fallacious argument used by religious folks against atheism, listing all sorts of war-mongers and mass murderers who were atheist. Its irrelevant. Maybe those guys don’t drink beer, or maybe none of them brush their teeth either. We don’t say it has anything to do with their killing people.
The flip side is when the roman catholic church kills people because they don’t behave according to “God’s will” the religion is a direct motive and the argument is valid.
I’m glad we agree. :)[/quote]
There certainly are people who go to large lengths for anti-religion. Again, any of the aforementioned Communist/Fascist regimes did it regularly, because it was a direct threat to their power. Atheism was the only choice because it secured the power of those in control because there was nothing else to provide allegiance to. In a way, it was about atheism to one degree or another. A quest for power when you seek to push religion out of the way is anti-religion (obviously it is anti a lot of other things as well).
If you do not believe that there has been any kind of discriminatory activity going on by those who are against religion, you are really missing out on some true problems occurring. Even if I take your argument to be true about atheism and causing deaths of millions, there are definite pockets of (at least the U.S.) where it occurs (most notably the Ivy Leagues where there is a distinct bent against).
Yes, religion is used as a tool to commit atrocities. But how can you say the same thing about atheism? People have never been rallied to war by their lack of belief. The United States government, however, would certianly use religion to rally the people against atheist nations.
You seem to confuse being killed by an atheist with being killed in the name of atheism.
There is a fundamental difference between belief and lack of belief.
Silly, all this arguing about God and what is right, wrong, absurd, sensible, believable…this is going to go on and on forever. Doesn’t anyone lift around here?
UV - I spend 1 hour a day, give or take 15 minutes in the gym. I’ve got a lot of free time at work recently. I’m glad people are posting here or I’d have nothing to do.
Now I’ve been challenged to go back and studied communist history. I think I’ll accept. As soon as I finish The Blind Watchmaker (by Dawkins).
Also I would like to point out that for whatever discrimination there has been against religious people in the US, there is 100x the amount coming from religious folk back at atheists. The stats are there. Atheists are the least trusted minority group in the country. Atheists can’t get into government. Etc…
Lets take this to the war room as a poll: God exists - true or false.
You seem to confuse being killed by an atheist with being killed in the name of atheism.
… [/quote]
Communism as practiced by the Soviets, the Chinese and the Khymer Rouge among others does not allow a belief in god as they do not want people to recognize a power above the states.
These regimes has persecuted, tortured and murdered religious people for practicing their religions.
If this is not killing in the name of atheism than the Crusades were not killing in the name of god.
This was not killing by people that happened to be atheists. This was killing by people that were trying to eliminate belief in god, so thet certainly were trying to force atheism on others.
