[quote]Kuz wrote:
Interesting point. I think that was the crux of the South Park episodes where Cartman is obsessed with getting the Nintendo Wii, goes into the future and there Dawkins theories have won out… but things are no better because instead of religious zealots, there are atheists zealots who use “Science” instead of “God” to call everyone else around them wrong and start wars. lol[/quote]
Haven’t seen that one.
I wish Dawkins would concentrate his talents in his field. Write books and give lectures about science, biology and evolution, and let people make up their own mind about what they want to believe.
Going on lecture tours to debate fundamentalists is an exercise in futility.
Faith isn’t reasoned in; it can’t be reasoned out.
Funny episodes, but zealots are zealots. For the fanatical atheist, atheism becomes a religion. And that’s what causes all the trouble.
Do most people even realize the implications of atheism? Perhaps they do and use zealotry as a means of creating purpose–survival instinct at work. I find it easy to reconcile the lack of an absolute meaning in life with the survival instinct. Relative to my life, living is my purpose. Searching for anything more is silly.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
MikeTheBear wrote:
The more I read about science and the universe, the more I’m inclined to think that there probably is a Supreme Being or Force (if you’re a Star Wars fan) that started it all.
I wholeheartedly agree. It is more than simply mindblowing.
This is such an antiquated mindset. I could picture you two discovering fire, beating your chests and screaming at the sky.
You’re smarter than that, aren’t you? Please, explain the inclination. It always seems to me that the more intelligent the theist, the harder time he has explaining himself. He realizes the irrationality and it always boils down to, “I don’t know…it’s just the way I feel. Shut up.” Yeah, well I like apples but I don’t like apple cider. [/quote]
It’s harder because to the atheist science is perhaps the only pure form of knowledge whereas to the theist theology, metaphysics, philosophy and science all play important roles in coming to the conclusion that a divine being exists. The fact that theists weave these disciplines together is what makes their arguments seem irrational to some. I guess you can say they are trying to in from a holistic perspective.
I hate these discussions on the internet because most people want to argue and don’t want to really discuss and hear what the other side has to say:
BUT:
I always find it disconcerting to see that people demand “proof there is God,” but cannot provide proof He does not exist.
In a court of law, we assume innocence and that the burden of proof lies on proving guilt.
When it comes to God, Christians are “guilty until proven innocent” in the context of burden of proof.
When looking at an ancient document, archaeologists assume it’s correct and compare it to other documents from the time. If the newly found manuscript is found to be “in tune” with the other manuscripts, it’s a reliable source.
The Bible has been tested and tried over and over…and can be relied upon as a reliable historical document.
Another thing: People don’t realize that fossils would form from The Great Flood. The creatures would have been pressed and buried under the ground…this supports fossils and stays Biblically correct.
Again, instead of laying the burden of proof to prove the “innocence” of the statement “God Exists”, the burden of proof should be on those trying to prove He does not exist.
Ugh…a horrible post due to sleepiness…apologies to those who can’t understand my point.
[quote]Prince Vegeta wrote:
Dare I ask why any of you believes in God? I mean, faith shouldn’t be the default. You might as well trust a stranger with the keys to your house.
Well said. I love it when religious folks extoll the virtues of “faith”. Or better yet “blind faith”, lol.[/quote]
You better not get married or have children because undertaking both of these is an act of extreme “blind faith.”
[quote]deputydawg wrote:
Prince Vegeta wrote:
Dare I ask why any of you believes in God? I mean, faith shouldn’t be the default. You might as well trust a stranger with the keys to your house.
Well said. I love it when religious folks extoll the virtues of “faith”. Or better yet “blind faith”, lol.
You better not get married or have children because undertaking both of these is an act of extreme “blind faith.”[/quote]
Haven’t you ever heard of pre-nuptuals, genetic testing and lawyers? Oh, ye of little faith!
AD, I believe you have it backwards. Those who wish to claim the existance of something which has no evidence bear the burden of proof.
Just like sasquatch. Those who claim it exists bear the burden of proof. The assumption is that it does not exist.
There are infinite things that we have no evidence for and thus do not believe in them. Anyone who makes something up, such as Flying Spaghetti Monster or Invisible Pink Unicorn must provide proof of their existence. Otherwise, you, me and the large majority will remain atheist in regards to their existence.
As Dawkins says “I just go one God further.”
-Blake
P.S. Enjoying what discussion comes of this thread, ignoring the personal attacks.
P.P.S. I don’t claim a thread like this will ever change anyone’s mind. I simply enjoy the discussion, learning the points of view, and shedding light where I can on issues of science I am familiar with. I used to teach catechism to young children many years ago. I have long since left Christianty and hold a strong dislike for oraganized religions, and “faith” in general.
[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
John S. wrote:
Im sorry but how is believing in God any stranger then evolution? You believe there is no God but your willing to believe that BY CHANCE these micro organsims decided to get together to make us? now im not saying evolution is wrong for all i know it could be the answer to how not why. what i mean by this is that God could have willed it to be that way which is perfectly reasonable.
p.s. Im a christian with a open mind about how we were created.
And for all you know nothing is real and we all live in the Matrix! Bum Bum Bum!
There is direct evidence that evolution happened, it’s not some theory that scientists invented arbitrarily. As of yet, I have not seen any plausible evidence that God exists.
Yes it’s true, we can’t prove God doesn’t exist. But there are innumberable theories we can’t disprove, like the one I mentioned above. Why believe in any particular one?[/quote]
Not currently having the ability to test a theory false does not mean that it is fact or true. As such, it takes faith to believe man evolved in the absence of having no plausible idea where matter originated and how it came to produce life. THAT cannot be proven or tested by any means, just like God.
So you worship the idea of science, and he worships the idea of a greater power. It’s all about the same. You just happen to like the idea of science better and find comfort in the thought that it is somehow “proven”. You just keep that thought if it helps you sleep at night.
[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
deputydawg wrote:
Prince Vegeta wrote:
Dare I ask why any of you believes in God? I mean, faith shouldn’t be the default. You might as well trust a stranger with the keys to your house.
Well said. I love it when religious folks extoll the virtues of “faith”. Or better yet “blind faith”, lol.
You better not get married or have children because undertaking both of these is an act of extreme “blind faith.”
Haven’t you ever heard of pre-nuptuals, genetic testing and lawyers? Oh, ye of little faith!
If there is no god, what one of the ten commandments is a bad idea. Even if it’s not true, moist of the bible has some good advice. Living by it and believing in God can add a great deal to a person’s life in a positive way.
If you don’t believe, fine. I do. I don’t force my beliefs on other people.
But people normally don’t have anythign to say when I ask which one of the ten commandments will screw up your life if followed.
The arguing is just a big waste of time. Live your life and believe or not. If there’s a God, you’ll regret it. If not, you won’t. But we’ll all find out one day.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
But people normally don’t have anythign to say when I ask which one of the ten commandments will screw up your life if followed.[/quote]
This is T-Nation. We don’t have normal people here.
If your father happens to be an incestuous child molester, the “Honor thy father and mother” one might fuck with your head a little.
The “Thou shalt not covet…” one is very difficult to follow if you live in a capitalist society.
If you follow “Thou shalt not kill” to the letter, does that mean you stand by and watch as someone kills your wife and family in front of your eyes? No? Well, then you’re not following it, are you?
You can also keep and torture slaves without breaking any commandments. You can beat your wife and kids too. You can rape as many woman as you want before marriage, as adultery is only meaningful once married.
Abiding by only the 10 Commandments might not necessarily screw up your life, but it won’t prevent you from screwing up the life of others.
“You’ll regret it.” Why is it that believers always feel the need to end with a little vindictive warning? Do you think that telling us, in essence, “My God will make you sorry” is going to make us re-evaluate our position?
[quote]tom63 wrote:
If there is no god, what one of the ten commandments is a bad idea.[/quote]
There is no other god but the one God. Well if you don’t believe in it, living your life by it is a bad idea.
Lord’s name in vain. Why ban ANY word because a religion you don’t follow says it is wrong to? fuck that.
Keep holy the sabbath. I’ll bust my ass working, or stay in bed sleeping, whenever I want, not when the sky-crane says so. Thank you.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
…I’ll covet whatever the fuck I want. I EVOLVED to covet other women. Thats how we came to be, as human beings. Coveting shit. Right now I covet me some bigass muscles. Its what movitates me to grow.
The rest of them - don’t lie/cheat/steal/murder, and honor your parents… these are good ideas.
They were good ideas long before the bible was written. They are good ideas practiced by millions of indigenous people around the world, people lucky enough to have never heard of the bible, or christianity.
I don’t think there are any fanatical athiests out there causing any trouble, dying for any gods, punishing and suppressing free speech and doing all of the other things that alot of fanatical religious institutions do(maybe not so much in this country, but middle east in mind.)
Either way, point Im trying to make is that i don’t see any harm in having a belief(or lack) in religion as far as being an athiest.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
Funny episodes, but zealots are zealots. For the fanatical atheist, atheism becomes a religion. And that’s what causes all the trouble.
Do most people even realize the implications of atheism? Perhaps they do and use zealotry as a means of creating purpose–survival instinct at work. I find it easy to reconcile the lack of an absolute meaning in life with the survival instinct. Relative to my life, living is my purpose. Searching for anything more is silly. [/quote]
I’m an aethiest who couldn’t give two shits if a theist believes or not.
I care when religion plays a role ingovernment. I care when people are hurt because of religion. I care when half the US population thinks the Earth is 6000 years old.
I know that some people find comfort and community in God and/or religion. I understand that. WQhat I don’t understand, are the people who use religion as a way to do evil, or even better, to make themselves less fullfilled.
God can fill holes, or create new huhge ones.
Anyways, I think faith in SOMETHING is important for most people.
I don’t need it, but I wholeheartedly understand why some people do.
In conclusion, I see no reason to disprove God. I only want to educate the retarded masses who believe God wants them to discriminate, hold prejudice, commit evil acts in His/Her name, or deny scientific probabilities.