Ok… just a quick update on what has been happening in India since the Attack.
No one can make India kneel: PM
Saluting the people of Mumbai and Srinagar for the speed with which they have returned to normal life, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Wednesday night said the war against terror will be won and that 'no one can make India kneel.
The Al Qaeda terrorist outfit was launched in Jammu and Kashmir with its spokesman making the announcement in a telephone statement to a local news agency, Current News Service.
Abu Hadeed, who claimed to be the spokesman of the outfit said, “The world will soon be made abreast of its aims and objectives.”
The spokesman told CNS that Al Qaeda Jammu and Kashmir chief Abu Abdur Rahman Ansari has “expressed happiness over the Mumbai serial blasts and appreciated those who carried out these attacks.”
“The Mumbai attacks were a reaction to the oppression in India of minorities in general and Muslims in particular,” Hadeed told CNS on phone.
If this is true… than this has nothing to do with Kashmir… and Zap wasnt too far off regarding his points made earlier.
Im very very impressed with your knowledge of Indian history sir!.
I am a Maratha… that along with the fact that the majority of my family are in the armed forces probably is the reason why I feel so strongly about India… so I guess it is in my blood,
the Maratha’s were fierce warriors and are one of the main people responsible for preserving the Hindu identity of India, there was a strong chance of India becoming an Islamic State during the Mughal Rule… The Mughals did some good things in India and the Mughal emperors were the richest in the world at that time… but my god , did they do some terrible things to the local non muslim population!.
[/quote]
I don’t think any general from the British Empire would have argued against the ferocity and dedication of the Marathas. In fact, were the subcontinent not so fractured as the Mughals were overthrown, who knows how world history have been different? Certainly the Indian soldier has shown his mettle against enemies around the world in the 20th century… The German, the Turk, the Italian, learned the hard way not to discount the Indian fighting man. The Indians are not the first people I would mess with were I a terrorist.
In any case, people who think that the problems between Muslim and Hindu in India started with the British Empire are daft. The Brits may not have made it any better, but the fact is that the Muslims carved a bloody and brutal empire out of India long before the British ever came along. That kind of thing, I would suspect, is not forgotten easily by a people so abused.
I will say that I am happy to see the United States and India drawing rapidly closer. It is entirely right, for all the problems involved, to see the world’s largest democracy and the USA friendly in all senses.
Even if you are not reading this we don’t care. Time and again you tried to disturb us and disrupt our life – killing innocent civilians by planting bombs in trains, buses and cars. You have tried hard to bring death and destruction, cause panic and fear and create communal disharmony but every time you were disgustingly unsuccessful.
Do you know how we pass our life in Mumbai? How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewhere, not here.
We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengalis. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, government employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this. On the last few occasions when you struck (including the 11 deadly blasts in a single day killing over 250 people and injuring 500 plus in 1993), we went to work the next day in full strength.
This time too we cleared everything within a few hours and were back to normal - the vendors serving their next order, businessmen finalizing the next deals and the office workers rushing to catch the next train. Yes, the same train you targeted.
Fathom this: Within three hours of the blasts, long queues of blood-donating volunteers were seen outside various hospitals, where most of the injured were admitted. By midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn’t require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and offices is close to 100%, trains & buses are packed to the brim, the crowds are back. The city has simply dusted itself off and moved on - perhaps with greater vigour.
We are Mumbaikars and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers. The spirit of Mumbai is very strong and can not be harmed.
[quote]nik19 wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
It has been decades since that ended.
I think I will set off a few bombs in the Tokyo subway to protest Pearl Harbor.
It hasn’t ended. Not throughout the Middle East. The U.S. is still in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc…
But regardless, the balance of power was shifted away from the Arabs after WWI. Muslims have been living under the thumb of foreign powers ever since that time.
The situation in Pakistan/India differs little from the Israel/Palestine debacle or even Iraq. In all cases, the root causes of the problems can be traced back to imperialism and foreign colonisation. Israel, Pakistan, and Iraq were all artificial states created arbitrarily by foreign diplomats. Those events paved the way for all of the problems seen today. It is completely ignorant to try to judge them outside of this historical context.
Tough conditions breed extremism. Arabs have been living under such conditions for nearly a century.
You make some fair points mate… I have met some americans who have told me that muslims hate the american way of life and hate their country because of the freedom given to people in america… but as far as I know that is not true… the majority of muslims that I have met have a thing against America because of what America is doing in the Middle East. However good America’s intentions have been, there have been alot of mistakes made and that hasnt helped the cause one bit. Also America’s support for Israel isnt really conducive to warm relations with muslims for obvious reasons.
So in that respect Muslims are definitely angry about bieng ’ under the thumb of foreign powers’.
Pakistan was created in 1948 by the british when they partitioned India into Pakistan and East pakistan (which later became bangladesh). This my friends was one of the biggest fuck ups of all time, not only does India now have two bordering countries with hostile elements in them, the world also now has a islamic republic with a large population of fanatic lunatics. There are scores and scores of militant pakistani outfits with strong links to Bin laden. It is a well known fact that these outfits supported and funded the Taliban and are continuing to do so. I personally feel General Musharraf has to do a lot more to crack down on these people.[/quote]
Nik,
Sorry to hear about your friends. I hope they’ll be alright soon. And good job on educating people about the menace we have been fighting against for the last 20 odd years. You’re right in stating that Indians have literally become immune to these attacks. Ever since I was a kid, I’d wake up and read the morning papers. Every other day, I’d read about people getting blown up in Delhi, Kashmir or Mumbai. The pain and anguish is still there. However, we’ve been trying to communicate this fact to the world for a long time. No one paid any attention until the problem was in their own backyard. If the Us wants a true ally in the fight against terrorism, then it’s been under their nose for a very long time- India. As far as Musharaff goes, I don’t know why he is still in power. On the one hand, Saddam Hussein-a dictator- is removed, which is wonderful. Yet Musharaff, another dictator, enjoys power and pretends to fight terrorism. I have several Muslim friends and they condemn this attack. However, it is a few bad fish that screw up the entire community. I will be travelling to Mumbai in less than a week. Let’s keep the people of Mumbai in our prayers and hope things get better for them.
If the Maratha’s would have over thrown the mughals mate…the whole world would have been different, there would have been no pakistan, no bangladesh… possibly no Taliban, the taliban were funded and supported by pakistani groups.
There would have been no Mumbai blasts no wars between India and Pakistan there would be NO Kashmir issue… gosh india would have been alot safer to be honest pal.
You do have a point there… although Hindu Muslim hatred spread during the British Rule, Divide and Rule was their policy… The Mughals were responsible for alot of it too.
I am quite happy about America and India getting closer…I tell you mate… Indians LOVE America… you only have to be in Mumbai for like a day to realise that… The affluent in Mumbai speak in pseudo American accents, we get all the american TV shows.
80,000 students travel to America every year to pursue their higher education…it is the number one destination to go as far as indians are concerned.
There are some people that are unhappy about the Iraq war but so are a considerable majority of Americans themselves. Quite a large percentage of the Muslim population however are quite Anti American for obvious reasons.
I was on holiday in the States last summer… went to New York… San Jose, Las Vegas, went to disney land and Universal studios (I bumped into Tyrese there lol). I even went to Canada and saw the Niagra Falls along with a visit to Toronto.
I was born on the 4th of July… so I was in Manhattan to see the firework display it was amaazzzing… there were like a million people there it was the best birthday ever.
I really really liked Canada though… lol I think its a beautiful country, the people were so polite and friendly and it was such a clean place… it just reminded me of england… just ALOT bigger.
Cheers mate, thank you for kind words. Im so glad that people are reading this thread and replying, I just wanted to let everyone know what the situation is and what exactly the Kashmir issue is all about.
Kashmir mate…its hell on earth I dont know how people live in that state pal… it gets bombed EVERY SINGLE DAY… terrorists are shot down almost every week.
Im happy with the India - America relations so far and you are right, they have had an ally for a long long time… that is why I was so shocked when Pakistan claimed they are USA’s Ally in fighting terror… mate they are the global hub of terrorism!
I dont believe a word Mushy says mate… I just cant.
I hope your trip to Mumbai goes well, you better take an umbrella, its Monsoon season and its gonna be pissing it down lol!.
Last post before I go to bed… for anyone that is interested, just a brief history of India and The kashmir issue.
India is made of 35 states and borders… Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar and has the island nation of Sri Lanka at its tip.
Capital - New Delhi
Currency - Indian Rupee (INR)
Independance day - 15th Aug 1947 (Britain)
Military - The Military of India has the highest headcount in the world, after the Peoples Liberation Army. Over a million strong, the Indian Paramilitary Forces also form the largest paramilitary force in the world. Combined, the Indian Armed Forces is the largest armed force in the world. The Indian Army maintains the world’s 3rd largest active army.
Population - 1,080,264,388 (July 2005 est.)
Religions:Hindu 80.5%,
Muslim 13.4%,
Christian 2.3%,
Sikh 1.9%,
Other 1.8%,
(Persians,Buddhists etc)
Athiest 0.1%
(2001 census)
Languages: English enjoys associate status but is the most important language for national, political, and commercial communication;
Hindi is the national language and primary tongue of 30% of the people; there are 14 other official languages
Over 5000 years ago , when many other cultures were just nomadic forest dwellers, the Indians established The Indus Valley Civilization, or the Harappan Culture, on the Indian sub-continent, and formed one of the earliest urban civilization in the world.
Arab incursions starting in the 8th century and Turkish in the 12th were followed by those of European traders, beginning in the late 15th century.
By the 19th century, Britain had assumed political control of virtually all Indian lands. Indian armed forces in the British army played a vital role in both World Wars.
Nonviolent resistance to British colonialism led by Mohandas Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nerhu brought independence in 1947. The subcontinent was divided into the secular state of India and the smaller Muslim state of Pakistan.
India fought four wars with Pakistan, 1948… 1965…1971 and 1999 the third war between the two countries in 1971 resulted in East Pakistan becoming the separate nation of Bangladesh.
[quote]nik19 wrote:
First Page From Times Of India
Dear Terrorist,
Even if you are not reading this we don’t care. Time and again you tried to disturb us and disrupt our life – killing innocent civilians by planting bombs in trains, buses and cars. You have tried hard to bring death and destruction, cause panic and fear and create communal disharmony but every time you were disgustingly unsuccessful.
Do you know how we pass our life in Mumbai? How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewhere, not here.
We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengalis. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, government employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this. On the last few occasions when you struck (including the 11 deadly blasts in a single day killing over 250 people and injuring 500 plus in 1993), we went to work the next day in full strength.
This time too we cleared everything within a few hours and were back to normal - the vendors serving their next order, businessmen finalizing the next deals and the office workers rushing to catch the next train. Yes, the same train you targeted.
Fathom this: Within three hours of the blasts, long queues of blood-donating volunteers were seen outside various hospitals, where most of the injured were admitted. By midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn’t require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and offices is close to 100%, trains & buses are packed to the brim, the crowds are back. The city has simply dusted itself off and moved on - perhaps with greater vigour.
We are Mumbaikars and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers. The spirit of Mumbai is very strong and can not be harmed.
As you can see, Pakistan and Bangladesh (1971)were formed, Sri Lanka and Myanmar became independant aswell.
You can clearly make out POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir) within the dotted white line in Yellow, that Pakistan is illegally occupying and Indian Kashmir.
The Part in China is actually a part of POK that pakistan ceded to China and it is called Aksai Chin.
I am quite happy about America and India getting closer…I tell you mate… Indians LOVE America… you only have to be in Mumbai for like a day to realise that… The affluent in Mumbai speak in pseudo American accents, we get all the american TV shows. [/quote]
Just remind your friends that there is a LOT more to America than our TV shows!
And often stay and almost always become productive members of society, at least in my experience.
Do you think they hate the 10 million muslims that live here and vote too? I always wondered that.
Well you got to see lots of tourist attractions. I would contend that if you wanted to really get a taste of America you would have to go to the Heartland, the South, the Plains, and New England. All have their own distinct culture. Most of those people would have fun in the places you mentioned and scratch their heads at the people living there.
[quote] I was born on the 4th of July… so I was in Manhattan to see the firework display it was amaazzzing… there were like a million people there it was the best birthday ever.
I really really liked Canada though… lol I think its a beautiful country, the people were so polite and friendly and it was such a clean place… it just reminded me of england… just ALOT bigger. [/quote]
There are places in America where polite, friendly, clean, and beautiful apply just as much as they do in Ontario. I have been to many places in the Great Lakes and Plains states that would seem like they are on another planet from New York, Las Vegas, and Disneyland. Great people, great culture in terms of the solidity of the people and their customs, just not a lot of “touristy” things to do. Remember the next time you think of us that we encompass rock-steady folks from Indiana as much as we do the kind of weirdos you see on TV and Times Square.
[quote]nik19 wrote:
First Page From Times Of India
Dear Terrorist,[/quote]
That was quite simply… the most beautiful editorial I have ever read in my life. And I have read a lot. Thank you for sharing it with us.
One of the least known facts about India, that my wife (as a Mathematician) always reminds me of, is that the world owes Modern Math to you. You were the true, but rarely credited, founders of modern Science, something that all humanity should be eternally grateful for.
The fact that you continue to remain humble and quite rarely take credit for not only that, but for all your other amazing contributions (including this editorial) just goes to show what an amazing people you are.
Thank you for once again being such a great example for everyone to follow.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nik19, thanks for posting all this.[/quote]
Thank you for taking the time to read my posts, Im just trying to provide as much information as possible for anyone that is interested about India and the Kashmir Issue.
Lol… yes mate, I do… I think it is very easy to generalise any one from any country. Most Indians are educated and intelligent enough to distinguish between what they see on TV and what they would experience if they actually went to America. Like I said a large number of students go to America every year and they come back during the holidays and tell all the local population how the life is in America and how beautiful the universities are… I went to Stanford when I was in the States last year and I was just blown away by the sheer size and magnificence of that institution.
However I did meet an American man once who asked me whether Indians go to school on elephants and whether we have the internet in India… that was quite funny actually.
Yes Almost 90% of them stay back in america to either do their masters or work, generally in the medical, engineering or finance fields. Its an Indian thing mate… most of us are either doctors, engineers or businessmen. My parents are both Doctors, My father is a Laparoscopic Surgeon… my younger sister is in her 2nd year of Medicine and Im in my final year of Electronic Engineering, I want to actually do my MBA and get into Investment Banking, Im planning to do my MBA from an American University.
If you are referring the to Indian Muslims, hating Muslims that live in America… then the fanatics definitely do. 50 - 60% of the Muslim population in India…are absolutely fine… especially the affluent well educated ones. They are liberal peace loving and loyal to India. The other half however are quite poor and fanatic. They dont consider Muslims who arent religious or muslims that are pro west etc true Muslims or whatever. The Majority of the Indian underworld and Mafia is run by Muslims who have accomplices in Pakistan and Dubai. The Muslim community in India is unfortunately the poorest community and I think alot of that has to do with the fact that their religion is getting in the way. If they cleaned up their act, went to school… uni, that would all change.
I personally im not religious at all… Hinduism really isnt a religion anyway, its a way of life… stuff like yoga and meditation is more spiritual and I am certainly very spiritual. Im too young to be religious anyway I want the most I can get out of life… I want to travel, achieve… become successful.
One of the London bombers was an 18 year old Pakistani lad from my University he lived up the street from where I was staying. I just cant understand how an 18 year old would want to give his life and die in the name of god. Its so sad… when I was 18 I wanted to get with as many college girls as I could and go out and get drunk with my friends… and Im 21 now and not much has changed!.. lol :).
I did get to see lots of tourist attractions… I would have loved to see the true America, I just didnt have the time, I have a 10 year multiple entry Visa so I will be coming to America often… and I will definitely see all of the above, I love meeting new people and learning their way of life, I have tons of friends from all over the world… I just love travelling!.
I certainly agree with what you have said. I have an uncle living in the OC… his house and area was wonderful very clean most of my relatives in the States are doctors aswell and all of their neighbourhoods were clean and beautiful and the people were very friendly. But definitely the people in New York were a little rude as compared to Canadians, they didnt mean to be rude… it just the way they spoke really.
But I understand what you are trying to say and I havent made a general opinion of all Americans based on the few that I have come across… its pretty much the same about India really, people spend so much time talking about the 25% below the poverty line that they tend to ignore the 75% that are above… we have our slums and poverty but we also have one of the fastest growing economies in Asia and the largest and richest middle class 350 million plus ,despite repeated wars and terrorist attacks and bieng independant for only 50 odd years after almost 700 years of oppressive foreign rule… India is getting there slowly but surely.
Yes it is a beautiful editorial. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply to my post, your post is one of the nicest things that I have ever read.
Yes, the Ancient Indians were incredibly advanced, I just dont know how they did the things that they did.
I think being humble is one of the most respectable qualities. It is far better to be complimented and credited for your achievements by others than boast about them yourself. Thank you for acknowledging what the ancient Indians did and bringing it to the attention of the fellow members of this board.
The fact that you and others that have taken the time to read and reply to this thread and share your concern and offer condolences to the people of Mumbai… people that you have never met… a city in a country that you may have never been to, just goes to show what an amazing people YOU are, so thank YOU for bieng such a great example for everyone to follow.
