[quote]rainjack wrote:
Clandestine funding is another story. I support any and all donations that will secure our hemishpere. Is that a popular stance? Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t really care.
[/quote]
I’m always trying to make clear that I have no problem with people’s opinions, unless they force them on me or argue that I’m wrong simply because I don’t have the same one.
However, your opinion is interesting because it opens the door for the same types of clandestine interference in your country by other parties for whatever “goals based” reasons those parties may have.
What’s interesting is that people (presumably not yourself) should not get indignant if the US is treated the same way you are describing treating other countries.
[quote]lixy wrote:
As for the Contras, let me briefly remind you how Ronald Reagan described them in a speech: “They are our brothers, these freedom fighters and we owe them our help. They are the moral equal of our founding fathers.”
[/quote]
This from a guy who says Hezbollah is a grassroots organization. We had as much a right to fund the contras as Iran has funneling money and weapons to Hezbollah, Russia funded terrorist organizations all over the globe. Ever hear of The Red Brigade? PLO? Black September? When the US does it, suddenly we are brought to task for it.
Who is funding the Bolivian government which is now in charge?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
This from a guy who says Hezbollah is a grassroots organization. We had as much a right to fund the contras as Iran has funneling money and weapons to Hezbollah, Russia funded terrorist organizations all over the globe. Ever hear of The Red Brigade? PLO? Black September? When the US does it, suddenly we are brought to task for it.[/quote]
Yes, Russia was no better. They funded terror groups and militias. I harshly condemn it.
Hezbollah is a group whose prime motivation is freeing Lebanon from an army of occupation. The Contras, on the other hand, were violently trying to overthrow the Nicaraguan government.
I can’t tell by the way your post is formulated, so I’ll ask you directly: do you think it was OK to support the Contras?
Darn! I was hoping for a bigger fish to bite. But you’ll do…
Here are some corollaries to your statement.
1- People outside the US don’t have a self-determination right.
2- The US reserves the right to slaughter people (directly or indirectly) that represent no threat whatsoever to its sovereignty.
3- It’s OK to bypass Congress and piss on checks-and-balances.
[quote]lixy wrote:
I can’t tell by the way your post is formulated, so I’ll ask you directly: do you think it was OK to support the Contras?[/quote]
Ok, a couple of points before I anwser your question.
You are the ones saying that during the cold war we supported dictators because we were in competition with the Soviet Union for world supremacy and since the cold war is over we should no longer back dictators? Is this correct as your way of thinking?
In a related issue, Hezbollah, with Iran’s help was founded to drive Israel, the US and UN from Lebanon. They are no longer there. If the US should not support dictators once the cold war ended, I think that Hezbollah should disband the way all the other militias in Lebanon disbanded since Israel has left Lebanon. Do you see a parallel here?
If they are invaded again, the defense should be up to the official Lebanese army.
Do I think we should have supported the Contras? Hell yes.
Third and final question: what the hell does any of this have to do with Bolivia any how?
[quote]lixy wrote:
1- People outside the US don’t have a self-determination right.
2- The US reserves the right to slaughter people (directly or indirectly) that represent no threat whatsoever to its sovereignty.
3- It’s OK to bypass Congress and piss on checks-and-balances.[/quote]
1-How about the people who didn’t like being ruled under a communist dictatorship? If there were no one willing to fight the communists, there would have been no Contras, right?
2-As do other countries around the world. We do not have a monopoly on slaughtering people, as you seem to think. Other countries have slaughtered millions more than we have, yet no one continuously bitches about them.
3-It obviously wasn’t now, was it?
But that doesn’t make kicking Commie butt any less of a good thing.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
You are the ones saying that during the cold war we supported dictators because we were in competition with the Soviet Union for world supremacy and since the cold war is over we should no longer back dictators? Is this correct as your way of thinking?[/quote]
Now you wanna reduce the sum of my knowledge and experience on the topic to one sentence? You’re either flattering your summary skills or resistant to any shade of gray.
You don’t have relatives in Lebanon my friend. I do.
Israel has been violating Lebanese airspace for years and is still doing so. Their troops cross into Lebanese territory with impunity terrorizing the locals and nobody does anything about it.
Don’t think for a second that the Maronites and Sunnis (which my relatives are) in Lebanon are happy by the power that Hezbollah has. However, they know that it’s the only hope Lebanon has of asserting its sovereignty, so they actually support it despite hating their guts.
The “official” armies of every Arab country could band together with every African and latin American nation, and they would still get their asses handed to them by Israel. You seem to forget who’s behind them…
Tell that to the Nicaraguans. I’m sure they’ll send you flower with a “thank you liberators” card.
Darn! I was hoping for a bigger fish to bite. But you’ll do…
Here are some corollaries to your statement.
1- People outside the US don’t have a self-determination right.
2- The US reserves the right to slaughter people (directly or indirectly) that represent no threat whatsoever to its sovereignty.
3- It’s OK to bypass Congress and piss on checks-and-balances.[/quote]
For one that starts crying at the drop of a hat, I find it hard to believe you could handle a fish of any size.
What does one’s right to self-determination have to do with us helping anti-communist freedom fighters? The French helped us in the 1770’s against a tyrannical Britain. There is no difference.
You like communism. We helped the contras kick your friends’ asses. Tough shit, car bomber.
Where in the fuck does a terrorist murderer/sympathizer get off being upset at “slaughter”? We were protecting our hemisphere from communism. And we have every right to do so. It worked. Once again - tough shit.
There was nothing wrong with supporting the contras.
Darn! I was hoping for a bigger fish to bite. But you’ll do…
Here are some corollaries to your statement.
1- People outside the US don’t have a self-determination right.
2- The US reserves the right to slaughter people (directly or indirectly) that represent no threat whatsoever to its sovereignty.
3- It’s OK to bypass Congress and piss on checks-and-balances.[/quote]
Brutal regimes are rarely the peoples’ choice.
You are making the same argument against this that you use with regard to us lending money and support to right-wing dictatorships. Any brutal dictatorship came about from ‘self-determination’.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
So do I. So what? You have some secret knowledge or something? That doesn’t mean squat.[/quote]
How often do you visit each other? Do you talk about the political situation in Lebanon? Are they in the North or South?
I consider myself privileged for having access to first hand insider’s info instead of relying on a journalist who spends his/her day in a hotel suite in Beyrouth.
Plus, my post wasn’t directed to you. It was addressed to GKhan and the point was that he may not be following the situation there as closely as I am.
What does one’s right to self-determination have to do with us helping anti-communist freedom fighters? The French helped us in the 1770’s against a tyrannical Britain. There is no difference. [/quote]
Now you’re just pulling out empty analogies which a kid could debunk.
Imagine if somebody sent money, weapons, and intelligence to the king’s crowd around the end of the 18th century to thwart the revolution. That would be analogous to what you guys did in Nicaragua.
Britain was a foreign imperialist force. The Contras were Nicaraguans.
The Sandinistas weren’t people I would wanna hang out with in particular. That said, I loathe the Somozas and anyone who doesn’t is a scumbag.
Calling me a murderer now? Real mature.
Yeah, Nicaragua was a powerful country that could have been very dangerous to your sovereignty. We all know that from the case of Cuba…
If your hemisphere should be protected from anyone, it’s from the USA.
The whole fuckin’ world was shouting from the roof tops that it was wrong. Did you miss that? Or do you just dismiss them?
Nicaragua then took its case to the UN Security Council, where a resolution supporting the ruling of the ICJ was vetoed by the United States. Nicaragua then went to the General Assembly, which passed a resolution supporting the ruling of the ICJ 94-3.
So please, when you get votes like 94-3, there is something VERY wrong.