[quote]Sxio wrote:
tora no’ shi wrote:
i’ve built myself up on the same split routine from 190 to almost 290 pounds over the last three years…i’m in the gym almost everyday, and i have never seen any of the regulars that mix it up, or use full body routines come anywhere near the progress i have gotten…so thanks but no thanks…i like to keep on doing what works…
But how do you know if you haven’t done anything else in 3 years?
Like I said, variety is a good thing and you may find something that works even better for you. But you’ll never know unless you try.
[/quote]
Are you kidding? If the guy gained a hundred pounds in three years, I’d say he probably knows what works best for him.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
What about a system like Westside though, where you change exercises every couple of weeks, but within a relatively narrow range (at least for ME, says Jim Wendler)? Wouldn’t that be the best of both worlds?[/quote]
I think you answered your own question. It’s not like they are swapping out their bench press for incline cable flyes, most (if not all) of the movements are variations of the main lift (board presses, incline presses, close grip, presses from pins, etc.) Same with lower body, they are doing variations of squats and deadlifts. They aren’t that much different than the original lift itself.
Their accessory lifts are used to improve weaknesses in their main lifts. Westside isn’t about which program makes you the biggest, it is about which program makes you the strongest. One of their theories is that you can’t continue to lift at 90%+ of your 1RM for extended periods (more than 3 weeks) and expect to keep making progress on the strength front.
Since their ME day is geared to hitting PR’s, they are not varying their rep range, so the vary their exercises enough to continue to make progress.
Another thing to note is that Westside only seems to work really well for the people at Westside Barbell. From what I gather, many people who have tried their conjugate method on their own have not had the same success that they do at Westside.
Also, Poliquin’s article was about hypertrophy, not strength gains.
If it were as simple as adding 5lbs to your 1RM every week you set foot into the gym, there would be a lot of 1000lb+ benches out there and 2000lb+ squats and DL’s.
What about gaining an average of 1 lb a week on your 3 big lifts? It might not sound like a lot, but if you figure you’ll be lifting 50 weeks out of the year, or around that, it’s about 50 lbs a year increase on your lifts. So say every 10 weeks you just go for that 5 lb increase on each side…is that too much to ask for someone in their 1st,2nd,3rd, or even 4th year of lifting?
At first I was annoyed by this thread because it looked like a bunch of internet PMSing. Then it became entertaining and informative. Informative in the sense that I realized that alot of people on here think along the same ways I do. I found this site when I first started lifting and got suckered into the “Chad’s new program” idea, but then I eventually learned on my own what most of you are saying.
Do what works for you, not what works for that other guy. Changes should only be made when your body adapts to the stress you put on it.
If you seem to be in a standstill, make minor adjustments to workout/diet. If you make drastic changes, how will you know if you just shot yourself in the foot by overlooking something as simple as increasing your calories, or switching from a BB to a DB?
I find alot of the studies and articles from the site authors inforative and useful like it helps me understand why I should emphasize complex carbs over simple etc…
Lift with intensity diet with what your body needs not what your tastebuds need.
This is not rocket science. Geez I’m ramballing sorry.
[quote]sharetrader wrote:
Care to share with us what exactly has worked so well for you?
[/quote]
sorry it took a couple of days to respond but i don’t check this place that often anymore…
as far as what has worked for me, i don’t follow any written routines…i don’t come to this site to be one of those “that’s exactly the article i was waiting for” type of guys, but what i do like is to read something and see the logic behind it…i love logic, therefor if i find something that works, i’ll do it…for as long as it works, even if it keeps on working 5-10 years down the road…
as far as the specifics of what i do, it’s nothing special…i eat alot, 6-7 seven meals a day, averaging out to around 7,000 calories…i work every muscle directly twice a week in sessions of anywhere from an hour to two, i use a combination of freeweights, machines and cables…at this point i don’t barbell bench, nor do squats or deads mostly because i’ve found other exercises that work just as well and still allow to get my six training days in comfortably…
what brings it all together though is the fact that every single workout…NO MATTER WHAT, i set a new personal record…somedays that means lifting 5 pounds more than i did last time, others is getting one more rep than the week before…i have not missed a pr since i started doing this a couple years ago, look up Bill Starr’s “a pr at every workout,” it was the greatest gem i’ve ever found and was lucky enough to come across it as a rookie…
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Work it out for yourself, then commit to it 110%.
[quote]tora no’ shi wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
Care to share with us what exactly has worked so well for you?
sorry it took a couple of days to respond but i don’t check this place that often anymore…
as far as what has worked for me, i don’t follow any written routines…i don’t come to this site to be one of those “that’s exactly the article i was waiting for” type of guys, but what i do like is to read something and see the logic behind it…i love logic, therefor if i find something that works, i’ll do it…for as long as it works, even if it keeps on working 5-10 years down the road…
as far as the specifics of what i do, it’s nothing special…i eat alot, 6-7 seven meals a day, averaging out to around 7,000 calories…i work every muscle directly twice a week in sessions of anywhere from an hour to two, i use a combination of freeweights, machines and cables…at this point i don’t barbell bench, nor do squats or deads mostly because i’ve found other exercises that work just as well and still allow to get my six training days in comfortably…
what brings it all together though is the fact that every single workout…NO MATTER WHAT, i set a new personal record…somedays that means lifting 5 pounds more than i did last time, others is getting one more rep than the week before…i have not missed a pr since i started doing this a couple years ago, look up Bill Starr’s “a pr at every workout,” it was the greatest gem i’ve ever found and was lucky enough to come across it as a rookie…
[quote]Light weight wrote:
That’s why routines get changed every month or so. And why reps are performed in ways that maximize damage (and therefore hypertrophy). A couple examples of this are slower reps and putting an emphasis on eccentric contractions. [/quote]
I haven’t trained with bodybuilders in years, but when I did, we did the same shit over and over again. Of course you’d “throw in” some random exercises here and there, and you’d try out the new Hammer Curl machines and what not, but the workouts tended to be 80% similar. That is, if you took a snapshot of a workout on Jan 1 and then another on Dec. 31st, they’d look damned similar.
I don’t know any big guy who doesn’t base his workout around the same shit - compound movements with lots of weights with lots of other supplemental shit thrown over time. Again, you change grips and exercises based on what part you’re working, but it’s still mostly the same shit.
[quote]Light weight wrote:
I never recommended it, just generalized that many body builders change their workouts “every month or so” to restimulate progress. [/quote]
This is simply not true. Go to Gold’s in Venice or someplace. You’ll see the (really big) same guys doing basically the same shit over time.
So you mean to tell me that people who make money writing articles containing training programs recommend that one’s training program be changed frequently?
I wonder why they might recommend frequent changes in workout programs?
Maybe I’m special, but I’ve never had anything work really well and then one day simply stop working. I’ve switched some stuff up because I read something that sounded like it might improve what I was doing or just on a hunch or brainstorm.
Sometimes new ideas stay because they enhanced my personal philosophy and sometimes not.
One way or another I’ve wound up staying with the same basic schedule though sets/reps and exercise order may get juggled from time to time. It’s loosely structured. Sometimes what I plan on that day going in gets modified by how I feel.
I don’t like formulas and setting a time frame for how often somebody should change things is another formula. People are too different for most formulas to be anything more than vague approximations at best. Soreness is included here. If I don’t get sore I don’t grow. It’s as simple as that. I say that only for me. I do not devise new ways to increase doms, but what I do gets me sore and whenever that hasn’t been the case I didn’t grow much.
This also goes for guys who see somebody bigger than them and immediately want to start doing what they do. What got them where they are may not get you anywhere. Advanced guys can be a goldmine of information, but that’s not the same as gleefully scribbling down their entire current routine as if it will necessarily work just as well for you.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Maybe I’m special, but I’ve never had anything work really well and then one day simply stop working. I’ve switched some stuff up because I read something that sounded like it might improve what I was doing or just on a hunch or brainstorm.[/quote]
Same here, but how many times can that be written and in how many different ways? You have to start creating mottos like “intensity and consistency are key” for this shit to be fully understood. What works for most people is not that they did some specific set of exercises in some specific order that suddenly caused muscle growth. They grew because they worked hard enough at it on a very consistent basis with enough force to produce a change while eating enough to grow.
I think its ridiculous to continually change your routine; then you’re more likely to not be consistent in several lifts, thus several stopping any great results. Hell, I gained my 30 lbs just sticking to the same old routine with only upping reps or weight (I could’ve gained more if I had a correct diet).
You have to start thinking in terms of point B from point A. Do you really think that eating 3000 calories with 225 grams of protein and doing the Weider “confusion training principle” to keep your body offguard will somehow magically make your 175lbs into 250lbs of rock granite monstrosity?
Every year of training is so damn important. If you just trained for a whole year and only gained 2 lbs of muscle mass, you just pretty much wasted a productive year of training–its gone–its lost and you arent getting that year back.
Stick with a damn program for a while and see how your body reacts. Then adjust as necessary. Be intense and consistent as you lift brutally heavy, but with good form. Combine that with enough calories and I guaran-damn-tee you?ll put on quality mass.
The big boys on this forum don?t mix it up too much. Sure I?ll switch from barbell inclines to db inclines for variety just to hit the pecs a little differently. But the basics stay the same. Save the ?change your routine every 2 weeks? for the P90X guys or for when you are dieting and melting Crisco.
I’m of the belief that sticking to the same basic exercises and adding weight weekly until you plateau is the way to go.
My only fear is (dare I say it) pattern overload. Basically overusing the same movement pattern over and over.
You could do bench press until plateau then back off the load a bit and work back up and beyond. I would now probably switch from bar bench press, to dumbbell press or from bench to ball for a few weeks.
But the basic movement is always going to remain. Isolation exercises can chop and change more often as they aren’t as critical.
As far as being sore to grow, I’d say not a sign of hypertrophy. I trained with a guy who seemed to gain muscle from just looking at dumbbells and never got sore. I would pull up sore every workout and I was half his weight. Yet, I was as strong or stronger in most exercises. And he never did compound leg exercises.
Careful who you take advice from. Not everyone responds the same way.