Blasting and Cruising at 48 on HRT - Beginner's Cycle Log

Pharma
41

So you are taking 200mg test cyp per week, 1mg adex per week, and just under 1000iu hcg per week? And you want to blast/cruise?

You are also taking large doses of oral D3 as well, yes?

My initial observation is that your AI dosage is too low. At 46, estrogen is a killer. Even at the risk of lowering the effectiveness of your test, I would double your adex intake. Hell, my adex intake IS double what your doing and I am also on 200mg/week test cyp.

On to the blast -

When I blast, I generally stay below 600mg test. And I will also use a 19-nor such as 300mg tren E, or deca. Lately it’s just been deca because it does not rape my BP like tren does. I also up the AI. Either use more aggressive AI such letro, or exemestane, or increase the dosage on the adex. I will also include a DA like prami, or increase the B6 intake.

But at my age, getting all psychedelic with AAS choices is like me trying to look cool in skinny pants. I’m a little too old for either activity.

I hope that addresses your question.

42

[quote]drunkpig wrote:
So you are taking 200mg test cyp per week, 1mg adex per week, and just under 1000iu hcg per week? And you want to blast/cruise?

You are also taking large doses of oral D3 as well, yes?
[/quote]

I’m increasing my anastrazole intake more than 2x. I’ve gone from .3mg e2d to .8mg e2d until I knock this sucker down. I’ve stopped my DHEA supplementation as well. Staying at 250iu of hcg e2d. D3 stays at 10k/day oral.

Thanks for the insight on blasts. I’m going to wait a bit till I get my e2 under control and steady before I consider a blast - kinda hard to go there from an unsteady foundation.

43

[quote]threepercenter wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:
So you are taking 200mg test cyp per week, 1mg adex per week, and just under 1000iu hcg per week? And you want to blast/cruise?

You are also taking large doses of oral D3 as well, yes?
[/quote]

I’m increasing my anastrazole intake more than 2x. I’ve gone from .3mg e2d to .8mg e2d until I knock this sucker down. I’ve stopped my DHEA supplementation as well. Staying at 250iu of hcg e2d. D3 stays at 10k/day oral.

Thanks for the insight on blasts. I’m going to wait a bit till I get my e2 under control and steady before I consider a blast - kinda hard to go there from an unsteady foundation.[/quote]

Wise choice.

I’m not a doctor, and in no way am I trying to subvert your docs advice, but if estrogen and aromatiztion is a big problem for you - you might look into using a bigger gun than adex. A slight step up is exemestane. And the big gun is letrozole.

44

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

if estrogen and aromatiztion is a big problem for you - you might look into using a bigger gun than adex. A slight step up is exemestane. And the big gun is letrozole.
[/quote]

This is not true. They all reduce free estrogen in young males by about 45-50%.

45

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

if estrogen and aromatiztion is a big problem for you - you might look into using a bigger gun than adex. A slight step up is exemestane. And the big gun is letrozole.
[/quote]

This is not true. They all reduce free estrogen in young males by about 45-50%.[/quote]

We’re not discussing young males. We are discussing a 46 yo male.

46

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
This is not true. They all reduce free estrogen in young males by about 45-50%.[/quote]

You are partially correct. I got my order mixed up. exemestane is the most potent, followed by letro and adex.

Using William Llewellen’s AAS reference manual it seems that, in clinical trials, adex and letro suppressed around 75-80% of estrogen. Armoasin (exemestane) was at 85%.

To quote Llewellen himself, “Aromasin may perhaps be the most effective aromatase inhibitor to date”.

If you want to argue with Bill, go ahead.

47

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
This is not true. They all reduce free estrogen in young males by about 45-50%.[/quote]

You are partially correct. I got my order mixed up. exemestane is the most potent, followed by letro and adex.

Using William Llewellen’s AAS reference manual it seems that, in clinical trials, adex and letro suppressed around 75-80% of estrogen. Armoasin (exemestane) was at 85%.

To quote Llewellen himself, “Aromasin may perhaps be the most effective aromatase inhibitor to date”.

If you want to argue with Bill, go ahead.
[/quote]

my mistake, I meant 45-60% in young males, and about the same in elderly ones… It really depends on what they use

Abstract

Context: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels.
Objective: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion.
Design and Setting: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital.

Participants: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10).
Interventions: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout.

Main Outcome Measures: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an iv 2.5-�??�?�¼g GnRH bolus.

Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001).

In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01).

Conclusions: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.

im fine with disagreeing with William on this… clinical trials back me up. I wouldn’t call Op “elderly”… but that’s just me

The trials that were conducted that say that aromasin lowers estrogen by 80%+ and letro by 95%+ were performed on post menopausal women who… do not really have much aromatase floating around…

48

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
This is not true. They all reduce free estrogen in young males by about 45-50%.[/quote]

You are partially correct. I got my order mixed up. exemestane is the most potent, followed by letro and adex.

Using William Llewellen’s AAS reference manual it seems that, in clinical trials, adex and letro suppressed around 75-80% of estrogen. Armoasin (exemestane) was at 85%.

To quote Llewellen himself, “Aromasin may perhaps be the most effective aromatase inhibitor to date”.

If you want to argue with Bill, go ahead.
[/quote]

also, letro is the most potent…

49

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
also, letro is the most potent… [/quote]

It is also the harshest on blood lipid profiles.

I’m going to change my mind again and go with my original statement that the biggest gun is letro. But a couple of caveats.

  1. Exemestane is different than either adex or letro in that it is a steroidal suicide AI. The circles I run in, exemestane is a god.

  2. For an over 40 HRT patient, letro may not be cholesterol friendly.

Other than that - I think it’s mainly a matter of preference. The differences between the three AI’s mentioned amount to nothing more substantial than fodder for internet arguments.

50

I have a good supply of anastrazole, pharma grade. I’m going to try to knock this sucker down with it for now. I’ll redraw labs in 4 weeks. Frankly, 3 days of no DHEA and increased anastrazole and I already feel better and stronger. Of course this could be placebic. We’ll have to see.

My last labs had my e2 at 25 - almost the holy grail of 22. The only thing that has changed is a new bottle of T-Cyp from the pharmacy and supplementation of HQ DHEA-S @ 50mg/day. So methinks it’s the DHEA. Or given that I’m beginning the 5th month of injectable HRT, maybe I’ve finally gotten my serum levels of T through the roof enough to aromatize like the dickens. I’m shooting in the dark here.

my Free T is 47.9pg/mL 6.8-21.5 which is pretty flippin’ high.

p.s. thank you for all the answers on my thread, I really appreciate everyone’s willingness to help.

51

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
also, letro is the most potent… [/quote]

It is also the harshest on blood lipid profiles.

I’m going to change my mind again and go with my original statement that the biggest gun is letro. But a couple of caveats.

  1. Exemestane is different than either adex or letro in that it is a steroidal suicide AI. The circles I run in, exemestane is a god.

  2. For an over 40 HRT patient, letro may not be cholesterol friendly.

Other than that - I think it’s mainly a matter of preference. The differences between the three AI’s mentioned amount to nothing more substantial than fodder for internet arguments. [/quote]

why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?

52

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?[/quote]

In the end of the pool I swim in, most people prefer exemestane to adex or letro for their AI.

53

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?[/quote]

In the end of the pool I swim in, most people prefer exemestane to adex or letro for their AI.

[/quote]

that makes no sense… it has a half life of approximately 8.9 hours, very poor bioavailability when taken orally (approximately 42%)… and at 12 hours it reaches peak suppression after which estrogen begins to rise again…

what is it that you like so much about aromasin?

54

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?[/quote]

In the end of the pool I swim in, most people prefer exemestane to adex or letro for their AI.

[/quote]

that makes no sense… it has a half life of approximately 8.9 hours, very poor bioavailability when taken orally (approximately 42%)… and at 12 hours it reaches peak suppression after which estrogen begins to rise again…

what is it that you like so much about aromasin?[/quote]

It tastes good.

It helps dry you out in a healthier manner with respect to blood lipid profiles, assuming one is taking a lot og gear.

I don’t recommend it for new cycles, or for low volume cycles. As I have said, the people I associate with prefer it over adex and letro. And they seem to know what they are doing.

55

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
This is not true. They all reduce free estrogen in young males by about 45-50%.[/quote]

You are partially correct. I got my order mixed up. exemestane is the most potent, followed by letro and adex.

Using William Llewellen’s AAS reference manual it seems that, in clinical trials, adex and letro suppressed around 75-80% of estrogen. Armoasin (exemestane) was at 85%.

To quote Llewellen himself, “Aromasin may perhaps be the most effective aromatase inhibitor to date”.

If you want to argue with Bill, go ahead.
[/quote]

my mistake, I meant 45-60% in young males, and about the same in elderly ones… It really depends on what they use

Abstract

Context: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels.
Objective: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion.
Design and Setting: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital.

Participants: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10).
Interventions: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout.

Main Outcome Measures: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an iv 2.5-�??�??�?�¼g GnRH bolus.

Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001).

In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01).

Conclusions: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.

im fine with disagreeing with William on this… clinical trials back me up. I wouldn’t call Op “elderly”… but that’s just me

The trials that were conducted that say that aromasin lowers estrogen by 80%+ and letro by 95%+ were performed on post menopausal women who… do not really have much aromatase floating around…[/quote]

That’s for patients NOT on TRT, though, so the HPTA compensates somewhat.

For patients on TRT, whose HPTA is shut down, one would expect a bigger effect for the same AI dose.

56

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?[/quote]

In the end of the pool I swim in, most people prefer exemestane to adex or letro for their AI.

[/quote]

that makes no sense… it has a half life of approximately 8.9 hours, very poor bioavailability when taken orally (approximately 42%)… and at 12 hours it reaches peak suppression after which estrogen begins to rise again…

what is it that you like so much about aromasin?[/quote]

I though a-sin was supposed to be the mack daddy due to it being a suicidal AI

I take it you prefer adex then Walkway?

57

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?[/quote]

In the end of the pool I swim in, most people prefer exemestane to adex or letro for their AI.

[/quote]

that makes no sense… it has a half life of approximately 8.9 hours, very poor bioavailability when taken orally (approximately 42%)… and at 12 hours it reaches peak suppression after which estrogen begins to rise again…
[/quote]

But it rises very slowly, it takes about a week or two for E2 to get back to pre-dose levels with aromasin, as opposed to about 2-3 days for anastrozole. This is because aromasin destroys aromatase enzymes, which have to be produced by the body again, which takes a week or two. OTOH, anastrozole only binds temporarily to aromatase enzymes, not destroying them.

Some people like that about aromasin (slower E2 rebound), but if you get an unwanted side effect from too much E2suppression, it takes much longer to go away with aromasin.

Aromasin has a metabolite that is a very strong androgen (much stronger than DHT), which is probably another reason many BBers like it. It’s better for sex. OTOH, if you are prone to hair loss, aromasin may make that much worse for the same reason.

58

Well next week I’m going to do a quick hormone panel to make sure that I’m doing ok on my current HRT regimen.

If everything checks out I’ll start my first blast. Going to go from 100mg t-cyp e3d to 250mg t-cyp e3d for 12 weeks and see what happens. That’s 200mg/week that puts me at 1500ng/dL to 500mg/week. Should be interesting.

I think my training is were it needs to be.

59

You’re doing to much HCG. That’s probably driving your E2 because on 1.2mg of Adex at your T dose E2 should be fine. HCG drives my E2 through the roof. Dropped it to 150iu a week and now 12.5 mg of Aromasin daily works fine. E2, before lowering HCG, 56 after 18.

60

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
why do you refer to as exemestane as “a god”?[/quote]

In the end of the pool I swim in, most people prefer exemestane to adex or letro for their AI.

[/quote]

that makes no sense… it has a half life of approximately 8.9 hours, very poor bioavailability when taken orally (approximately 42%)… and at 12 hours it reaches peak suppression after which estrogen begins to rise again…

what is it that you like so much about aromasin?[/quote]

I though a-sin was supposed to be the mack daddy due to it being a suicidal AI

I take it you prefer adex then Walkway?
[/quote]

people overestimate the significance of the “suicidal” aspect of aromasin… they really don’t understand what it means at all…

the body is always making new aromatase so it really doesn’t mean much if anything that it gets destroyed… besides, the aromasin gets destroyed with it which means other AI’s would be more effective in that regard.