Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

Off Topic
481

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

And all I’m saying after that block of text that re-stated everything you have already said in this thread…is, maybe that guy was a racist…maybe he was not. But just like that violence at the McDonalds that you defended where the girls jumped the counter… NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.[/quote]

The law in that case ended up agreeing with me, didn’t it? That man was defending himself from two attackers. This case is about a kid with pockets filled with snacks running away from a gun carrying stereotyping douchbag, getting shot and then the law NOT arresting the shooter.

Man, I wish we could find one case of this happening where a black guy off shooting someone like this. That is the question I think some of us are asking.

I haven’t stated that or implied as such. Who here has denied racism exists in all races? None of that erases the fact that the “majority” will always be held to a standard worthy of the social place that title holds. Once again, I don’t think many of us doubt that had that kid been white and that crime watch guy been black, that there would have been zero hesitation in an arrest regardless of what happened later.

You are clearly misunderstanding what has been written. This man’s true race is irrelevant. This has been explained to you. What IS doesn’t matter when perception alone allows you to slay someone.

You may want to read that slowly.

482

It’s comical to read line after line of how Zimm sounds like he had a right to shoot that Kid.

And end with but it’s sad the kid died.

483

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are clearly misunderstanding what has been written. This man’s true race is irrelevant. This has been explained to you. What IS doesn’t matter when perception alone allows you to slay someone.
[/quote]

Exactly.

I never called him a WHITE RACIST. GO back and read all my posts. I initially called him a racist, then recanted by saying his perception was influenced by a racial bias. WHICH IT WAS.

484

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

EDIT: My position on Zimmerman still hasn’t changed. I still think his actions were reprehensible and I consider what happened murder. I am just acknowledging that the law will probably not see it that way and the inability of the police and the DA to do anything about it is more evidence of flaws with the legal system than a massive racist conspiracy encompassing the state of Florida.[/quote]

Wow. This thinking isn’t a shock…but I am surprised to still see so much of it. We have had these discussions before. Many of you seem extremely defensive about any use of the word “racism”…as if many social institutions can’t be “racist” without being card carrying KKK members.

I am guessing this is because you want to be able to distance yourself far from the word…despite calling this kid “suspicious” yourself with nothing to base it on other than a kid walking at night in the rain to dad’s house.

The flaws in that legal system are what we are discussing. If you can cry “self defense!!” after tracking, attacking and shooting someone who was running away, something needs to change.

The lack of much history showing this action to be universal is why this is creating so much of a stir.

485

[quote]four60 wrote:
It’s comical to read line after line of how Zimm sounds like he had a right to shoot that Kid.

And end with but it’s sad the kid died.

[/quote]

Yes, the “the kid was SUSPICIOUS…uh, for walking”…but that has nothing to do with race…and uh, yeah it’s sad a kid died." is getting retarded.

486

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

And all I’m saying after that block of text that re-stated everything you have already said in this thread…is, maybe that guy was a racist…maybe he was not. But just like that violence at the McDonalds that you defended where the girls jumped the counter… NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.[/quote]

The law in that case ended up agreeing with me, didn’t it? That man was defending himself from two attackers. This case is about a kid with pockets filled with snacks running away from a gun carrying stereotyping douchbag, getting shot and then the law NOT arresting the shooter.

Man, I wish we could find one case of this happening where a black guy off shooting someone like this. That is the question I think some of us are asking.

I haven’t stated that or implied as such. Who here has denied racism exists in all races? None of that erases the fact that the “majority” will always be held to a standard worthy of the social place that title holds. Once again, I don’t think many of us doubt that had that kid been white and that crime watch guy been black, that there would have been zero hesitation in an arrest regardless of what happened later.

You are clearly misunderstanding what has been written. This man’s true race is irrelevant. This has been explained to you. What IS doesn’t matter when perception alone allows you to slay someone.

You may want to read that slowly.[/quote]

The master cherry picker at work again…whatever man, as many have said before…you are not always right, even though you think you are.

40K posts does not give you the right to be a condescending prick.

Read THAT slowly.

487

[quote]four60 wrote:
It’s comical to read line after line of how Zimm sounds like he had a right to shoot that Kid.

And end with but it’s sad the kid died.

[/quote]

It reminds me of rape cases where women on the jury don’t want to convict the alleged rapist. By doing so, they create a situation in their minds that tells them that rape will never happen to THEM.

It’s called DENIAL.

Racism hides under the surface, but pushes other elements of a case forward to deny the inherent racism. I’d bet there’s a bit of that going on in this thread.

Even if the kid was white, this Zimmerman idiot (whether in his legal right to CCW) ESCALATED a perceived problem. Imagine if he had just kept his eye on the kid until police arrived. That child would be with his dad right now, safe and sound. But Zimmerman had to be a fucking hero.

488

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

The master cherry picker at work again[/quote]

Weak. I quoted exactly what you wrote. Don’t get mad because your own words break down so easily.

[quote]

…whatever man, as many have said before…you are not always right, even though you think you are.[/quote]

Ridiculous. I don’t claim to be always right. I make mistakes like anyone else, but I also know when what I believe has a strong base in truth and reality…and this is one of those times.

[quote]
40K posts does not give you the right to be a condescending prick.

Read THAT slowly.[/quote]

Nope, it sure doesn’t. I wasn’t condescending to you. Your clear misinterpretation of what has been written made it clear you needed to understand core concepts better…ie, “read slower”. U mad?

489

Seems to be a lot of yelling about basically the same thing. Perhaps I can summarize:

Points of general agreement:
Zimmerman pursued the situation to the point it lead to him shooting Martin (if wrong name, sorry)
His self defense claim sounds bogus given prior behavior
Still, he might walk

Points of disagreement:
Whether race motivated Zimmerman’s action

490

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Will somebody please prove Zimmerman’s intent? Like actual proof and not assumed bullshit?[/quote]

Innocent dead kid with no priors or weapons.

YOU tell ME.[/quote]
You don’t need weapons to give the perception of a threat and unless zimmerman has X-ray vision, his perception was all he had to go by. Considering the context of the thread topics already discussed as well as new allegations surrounding the shooting brought to light, Zimmerman sounds more and more in his rights as a state licensed concealed carry citizen on alert.

Regardless of whether or not the kid was guilty of something, his death is sad but quite possibly legally justified. What we still don’t know are the actual facts as opposed to jumped conclusions.[/quote]

Leaving race out for a moment, Zimmerman pursued Martin after the police told him to stand down. Trayvon was not armed, even though Zimmerman believed he was (which begs the question of why he would engage someone he believed to be armed, then claim self-defense?).

Somehow a physical confrontation erupted away from the vehicle, so either Zimmerman left the car in pursuit of Martin, or Tray dragged him from the car, beat him up and Zimmerman had to shoot him in self-defense. The former is more consistent with the 911 call, but to avoid any “conclusion jumping”, let’s just say that Zimmerman put himself in a situation that he obviously couldn’t control.

Zimmerman claims that he is the one who cried out on the tape. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt there (even though “help! I’ve got a gun!” sounds dubious). Assuming it was him calling for help, he put himself in harm’s way and shouldn’t have been patrolling alone if he could be physically overpowered.

The only logical explanation for Zimmerman ignoring the operator’s advice was that he was unwilling to let the suspect get away. So…what exactly did Martin do that Zimmerman couldn’t be satisfied with just deterring a potential break in? Shifty looks and playing with his waistband is not good enough.

If you are armed and you don’t want to kill someone, and you have the option of walking away, you simply don’t engage that person then call it self-defense when you have to blast a hole in their chest. Carrying a gun so you can put yourself in perilous situations only to have to shoot your way out is no justification either.

491

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
It’s comical to read line after line of how Zimm sounds like he had a right to shoot that Kid.

And end with but it’s sad the kid died.

[/quote]

It reminds me of rape cases where women on the jury don’t want to convict the alleged rapist. By doing so, they create a situation in their minds that tells them that rape will never happen to THEM.

It’s called DENIAL.

Racism hides under the surface, but pushes other elements of a case forward to deny the inherent racism. I’d bet there’s a bit of that going on in this thread.

Even if the kid was white, this Zimmerman idiot (whether in his legal right to CCW) ESCALATED a perceived problem. Imagine if he had just kept his eye on the kid until police arrived. That child would be with his dad right now, safe and sound. But Zimmerman had to be a fucking hero.
[/quote]

The Defense or Defenders of Zimmermans rights argument is just odd. I carry a weapon I had to for work and I choose to as a citizen, all within the law.

How is what Zimmerman did not seen as profiling and putting himself in a position to leave out any other option but to shoot.

Zimmerman was apart of the neighborhood watch his job is to walk or drive around and call 911 if he thinks he sees a crime.

Zimmerman had this kid pegged as a Crook. Zimmerman went after the kid after telling 911 “the kid is coming towards me to check me out…oh now he’s running” at some pont zimmerman left his car and confronted a KID he knows was afraid of him because he was trying to run from the guy following him.

So now a struggle happens, some screams and a shot.

If I’m wrong on this let me know.

The kid had on a hoodie walking home from the store in the rain.

The kid was found with a ice Tea and Skittles.

The kid was 100 lbs smaller than zimmeran

492

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

And all I’m saying after that block of text that re-stated everything you have already said in this thread…is, maybe that guy was a racist…maybe he was not. But just like that violence at the McDonalds that you defended where the girls jumped the counter… NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.[/quote]

The law in that case ended up agreeing with me, didn’t it? That man was defending himself from two attackers. This case is about a kid with pockets filled with snacks running away from a gun carrying stereotyping douchbag, getting shot and then the law NOT arresting the shooter.

Man, I wish we could find one case of this happening where a black guy off shooting someone like this. That is the question I think some of us are asking.

I haven’t stated that or implied as such. Who here has denied racism exists in all races? None of that erases the fact that the “majority” will always be held to a standard worthy of the social place that title holds. Once again, I don’t think many of us doubt that had that kid been white and that crime watch guy been black, that there would have been zero hesitation in an arrest regardless of what happened later.

You are clearly misunderstanding what has been written. This man’s true race is irrelevant. This has been explained to you. What IS doesn’t matter when perception alone allows you to slay someone.

You may want to read that slowly.[/quote]

It seems like HG badly want him not to be a racist.

493

[quote]four60 wrote:

The Defense or Defenders of Zimmermans rights argument is just odd. I carry a weapon I had to for work and I choose to as a citizen, all within the law.

How is what Zimmerman did not seen as profiling and putting himself in a position to leave out any other option but to shoot.

Zimmerman was apart of the neighborhood watch his job is to walk or drive around and call 911 if he thinks he sees a crime.

Zimmerman had this kid pegged as a Crook. Zimmerman went after the kid after telling 911 “the kid is coming towards me to check me out…oh now he’s running” at some pont zimmerman left his car and confronted a KID he knows was afraid of him because he was trying to run from the guy following him.

So now a struggle happens, some screams and a shot.

If I’m wrong on this let me know.

The kid had on a hoodie walking home from the store in the rain.

The kid was found with a ice Tea and Skittles.

The kid was 100 lbs smaller than zimmeran[/quote]

Man, you are not wrong at all. The self defense claim is bullshit to anyone with anyone with half a brain. The second he left his car and began chasing the kid his right to claim self defense should have gone out the window. This is why most states have a “duty to retreat” law, which Florida does not have. This means basically that unless the prosecution can prove that Zimmerman was the one who attacked the kid, they really have no case. I really hope that this case leads to a revision of the self defense laws. You should not be able to chase someone down and get away with shooting them, even if they attack you first. I imagine that poor kid was terrified and acted according to his fear of what Zimmerman was going to do to him. Unfortunately, without actual evidence or witnesses Zimmerman is likely to walk.

Oh, and someone mentioned John White earlier. There are two major reasons why that case cannot compare two this one. The first is that there were multiple witnesses and the second is that New York does have a duty to retreat law, which I imagine Florida will have very shortly. The kids were shouting racist slurs and wanted to beat up his son, but under New York law he had no right to leave his house and shoot that kid. He was safe in his house and should have just called the cops. If Florida had a similar law, then the cases would be very similar, except for the witnesses, and it is likely Zimmerman would be facing manslaughter charges right now.

494

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

The Defense or Defenders of Zimmermans rights argument is just odd. I carry a weapon I had to for work and I choose to as a citizen, all within the law.

How is what Zimmerman did not seen as profiling and putting himself in a position to leave out any other option but to shoot.

Zimmerman was apart of the neighborhood watch his job is to walk or drive around and call 911 if he thinks he sees a crime.

Zimmerman had this kid pegged as a Crook. Zimmerman went after the kid after telling 911 “the kid is coming towards me to check me out…oh now he’s running” at some pont zimmerman left his car and confronted a KID he knows was afraid of him because he was trying to run from the guy following him.

So now a struggle happens, some screams and a shot.

If I’m wrong on this let me know.

The kid had on a hoodie walking home from the store in the rain.

The kid was found with a ice Tea and Skittles.

The kid was 100 lbs smaller than zimmeran[/quote]

Man, you are not wrong at all. The self defense claim is bullshit to anyone with anyone with half a brain. The second he left his car and began chasing the kid his right to claim self defense should have gone out the window. This is why most states have a “duty to retreat” law, which Florida does not have. This means basically that unless the prosecution can prove that Zimmerman was the one who attacked the kid, they really have no case. I really hope that this case leads to a revision of the self defense laws. You should not be able to chase someone down and get away with shooting them, even if they attack you first. I imagine that poor kid was terrified and acted according to his fear of what Zimmerman was going to do to him. Unfortunately, without actual evidence or witnesses Zimmerman is likely to walk.

Oh, and someone mentioned John White earlier. There are two major reasons why that case cannot compare two this one. The first is that there were multiple witnesses and the second is that New York does have a duty to retreat law, which I imagine Florida will have very shortly. The kids were shouting racist slurs and wanted to beat up his son, but under New York law he had no right to leave his house and shoot that kid. He was safe in his house and should have just called the cops. If Florida had a similar law, then the cases would be very similar, except for the witnesses, and it is likely Zimmerman would be facing manslaughter charges right now.[/quote]

I must admit it I also think Zimmerman is going to walk.

I feel this mostly becuase of the actions by the police. They corrected wittness statements on scene instead of just writing down statements and then letting the detectives take over? Also Was Zimmerman even taken in to be looked over by medical personnel. Its just odd.

I actually am in favor of the stand your ground law. I’m not sure how STAND YOUR GROUND = Pursuit.
If I’m chasing someone down it is not STANDING MY GROUND.

If I’m worried about my life or having to shoot someone to protect my life WHY CHASE SOMEONE DOWN?

495

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Seems to be a lot of yelling about basically the same thing. Perhaps I can summarize:

Points of general agreement:
Zimmerman pursued the situation to the point it lead to him shooting Martin (if wrong name, sorry)
His self defense claim sounds bogus given prior behavior
Still, he might walk

Points of disagreement:
Whether race motivated Zimmerman’s action[/quote]

It’s not even so much that race might have motivated his actions – black people had been breaking into the neighborhood, Zimmerman sees a strange black kid walking alone at night in the rain, Zimmerman is already slightly unstable, etc. – but rather the idea that he is a hardcore racist who perceived this altercation to be a perfectly suitable excuse to shoot blackie without repercussion. You know, the POV of a majority of posters since page one.

And that anyone who DARES to even so much as question the idea that we don’t have all the facts – something a few of us have been saying since before all this new information cleared – are all either closet racists trying to excuse their own subtler actions or in a state of denial and refusing to acknowledge the racism in the world today.

Seriously, some of us are racists for admitting that “we don’t know what Zimm’s true motivations were”.

And yet, WE’RE the ones overly fixated on the race issue.

496

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The fact that not one person in this thread thought he was not white until that factoid came out confirms that.[/quote]

All that “confirms” is that we were given a low quality mug shot of a white-ish guy with the last name “Zimmerman”.

497

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Oh, and someone mentioned John White earlier. There are two major reasons why that case cannot compare two this one. The first is that there were multiple witnesses and the second is that New York does have a duty to retreat law, which I imagine Florida will have very shortly. The kids were shouting racist slurs and wanted to beat up his son, but under New York law he had no right to leave his house and shoot that kid. He was safe in his house and should have just called the cops. If Florida had a similar law, then the cases would be very similar, except for the witnesses, and it is likely Zimmerman would be facing manslaughter charges right now.[/quote]

Don’t forget, John White shot the teen with an unlicensed pistol.

Zimmerman had a CCW.

There is also a difference between claiming a shot was fired in self defense and ADMITTING a shot was fired accidentally.

These arguments aren’t even making sense, anymore.

498

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Seems to be a lot of yelling about basically the same thing. Perhaps I can summarize:

Points of general agreement:
Zimmerman pursued the situation to the point it lead to him shooting Martin (if wrong name, sorry)
His self defense claim sounds bogus given prior behavior
Still, he might walk

Points of disagreement:
Whether race motivated Zimmerman’s action[/quote]

It’s not even so much that race might have motivated his actions – black people had been breaking into the neighborhood, Zimmerman sees a strange black kid walking alone at night in the rain, Zimmerman is already slightly unstable, etc. – but rather the idea that he is a hardcore racist who perceived this altercation to be a perfectly suitable excuse to shoot blackie without repercussion. You know, the POV of a majority of posters since page one.

And that anyone who DARES to even so much as question the idea that we don’t have all the facts – something a few of us have been saying since before all this new information cleared – are all either closet racists trying to excuse their own subtler actions or in a state of denial and refusing to acknowledge the racism in the world today.

Seriously, some of us are racists for admitting that “we don’t know what Zimm’s true motivations were”.

And yet, WE’RE the ones overly fixated on the race issue.[/quote]

“black people had been breaking into the neighborhood”?

sorry if I missed this part. I had seen reports that the area did have crimes but I missed the part that said “Black People where the one’s doing it” was is just black people doing these crimes?

I’m not saying it was or was not. I’m just saying I don’t remember seeing any report that said it was done by any one race of people. I could be wrong. I have not seen all the reports.

499

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Seems to be a lot of yelling about basically the same thing. Perhaps I can summarize:

Points of general agreement:
Zimmerman pursued the situation to the point it lead to him shooting Martin (if wrong name, sorry)
His self defense claim sounds bogus given prior behavior
Still, he might walk

Points of disagreement:
Whether race motivated Zimmerman’s action[/quote]

It’s not even so much that race might have motivated his actions – black people had been breaking into the neighborhood, Zimmerman sees a strange black kid walking alone at night in the rain, Zimmerman is already slightly unstable, etc. – but rather the idea that he is a hardcore racist who perceived this altercation to be a perfectly suitable excuse to shoot blackie without repercussion. You know, the POV of a majority of posters since page one.

And that anyone who DARES to even so much as question the idea that we don’t have all the facts – something a few of us have been saying since before all this new information cleared – are all either closet racists trying to excuse their own subtler actions or in a state of denial and refusing to acknowledge the racism in the world today.

Seriously, some of us are racists for admitting that “we don’t know what Zimm’s true motivations were”.

And yet, WE’RE the ones overly fixated on the race issue.[/quote]

“black people had been breaking into the neighborhood”?

sorry if I missed this part. I had seen reports that the area did have crimes but I missed the part that said “Black People where the one’s doing it” was is just black people doing these crimes?

I’m not saying it was or was not. I’m just saying I don’t remember seeing any report that said it was done by any one race of people. I could be wrong. I have not seen all the reports.[/quote]

I know that several of the news articles I read said that the suspects (can’t remember if it were singular or plural) in the thefts/break ins were black.

500

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Seems to be a lot of yelling about basically the same thing. Perhaps I can summarize:

Points of general agreement:
Zimmerman pursued the situation to the point it lead to him shooting Martin (if wrong name, sorry)
His self defense claim sounds bogus given prior behavior
Still, he might walk

Points of disagreement:
Whether race motivated Zimmerman’s action[/quote]

It’s not even so much that race might have motivated his actions – black people had been breaking into the neighborhood, Zimmerman sees a strange black kid walking alone at night in the rain, Zimmerman is already slightly unstable, etc. – but rather the idea that he is a hardcore racist who perceived this altercation to be a perfectly suitable excuse to shoot blackie without repercussion. You know, the POV of a majority of posters since page one.

And that anyone who DARES to even so much as question the idea that we don’t have all the facts – something a few of us have been saying since before all this new information cleared – are all either closet racists trying to excuse their own subtler actions or in a state of denial and refusing to acknowledge the racism in the world today.

Seriously, some of us are racists for admitting that “we don’t know what Zimm’s true motivations were”.

And yet, WE’RE the ones overly fixated on the race issue.[/quote]

“black people had been breaking into the neighborhood”?

sorry if I missed this part. I had seen reports that the area did have crimes but I missed the part that said “Black People where the one’s doing it” was is just black people doing these crimes?

I’m not saying it was or was not. I’m just saying I don’t remember seeing any report that said it was done by any one race of people. I could be wrong. I have not seen all the reports.[/quote]

I know that several of the news articles I read said that the suspects (can’t remember if it were singular or plural) in the thefts/break ins were black. [/quote]

I missed those. All the reports I seen just said break ins and crimes had happen in the area.

EDIT: I did find a couple reports but they where all from Zimmerman walking around door to door telling people to be on the look out for “young black men who seem to be outsiders”.

Also Zimmerman seems to have been on some form of Crusade. He had called 911 46 times since Jan 1.