Black Teen Shot 3

Off Topic
141

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]thirdruffian wrote:

If you look at the article, it says the Stand Your Ground law didn’t even apply, because dumbass Zimmerman was already on the ground and couldn’t retreat.[/quote]

? I thought that would work in Zimmermans defense?[/quote]

No, the “Stand Your Ground” law merely added you don’t have to run away, if you have the ability to do so.

Here, dumbass was on the ground, so he couldn’t run away.

It’s just plain-old “self-defense.”[/quote]

Nothing is really “plain” in this incident. There are “if these things hold true” it’s just plain-old self-defense. Even with Stand Your Ground law…wouldn’t there still be a need to determine the aggressor before establishing who is justified in their self-defense3??

With that…couldn’t this Stand Your Ground law have justified Martin in defending himself…and putting Zimmerman on the ground in the first place…??? Of course there is the confusing “speculation” that Martin followed Zimmerman back to the vehicle. But it’s just that…speculation. [/quote]

Well this is why it stings so much for the family. The Defense (Zimmerman) does not have to show much of anything because the burden of proof is on the Prosecution.[/quote]

Self Defense is an affirmative defense. The burden of proof is on the defense to prove it by a prponderance of the evidence. If they can’t, all the prosecution has to do is prove Zim shot trayvon beyond a reasonable doubt.
[/quote]

If this is true and he can’t use the Stand your Ground law and falls on Self Defense then he is in for a fight because its not even a question about the Shot.

So then the real question is Stand your Ground or Self Defense?[/quote]

There is not one without the other. You can’t “stand your ground” unless you are acting in self defense. The stand your ground law just says that you can use deadly force in self-defense, but it still has to be self defense which the defense has to prove.

Edit: and stand your ground says you don’t have to try to escape before defending yourself, but again, still has to be self-defense.
[/quote]

I didn’t even think it was still a question that Zimmerman and Martin got into it. I thought all that was being talked about was what got them to that point.

After the fight started I don’t find it hard to believe that Zimmerman felt he was in shit city and pulled his gun.

142

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Self Defense is an affirmative defense. The burden of proof is on the defense to prove it by a prponderance of the evidence. If they can’t, all the prosecution has to do is prove Zim shot trayvon beyond a reasonable doubt.
[/quote]

Very close. I am not sure in Florida of the “proof standard,” (preponderance vs. clear and convincing vs. beyond a reasonable doubt), but I do know the burden shifts back and forth.

Here:

  1. To show manslaughter/murder/etc : burden on state to prove
  2. To prove “self defense” (here “fear of grevious bodily harm”): burden on defendant
  3. To prove exclusion from self defense (e.g., provocation that caused assault): burden on state.

Here 1 and 2 are basically “gimmes” under the undisputed facts, so we’re at 3 and the burden there lies on the state.

Again, I don’t see them getting there.

143

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The whole “Theory” that Zimmerman addressed himself a “Neighborhood watch” makes me think.

If I was walking down a block I thought I had every right to walk down and a stranger walked up to me asking questions. Do you live here? What are you doing? I would look at him like he was crazy and walk right pass him.

I’m not sure what I would do if the guy seemed to be following me.[/quote]
And the theory he was just running through a neighborhood, gun drawn, to kill a kid in cold blood?[/quote]

HOLY shit??? where did that come from???

Who sad all of that??

Edit:

Not sure what Theory that came from. But Zimmerman had way more options that Martin.

Zimmerman was in his car. He left it to follow martin.

Zimmerman KNEW he could stop martin in his tracks with the squeeze of a finger,
Martin could only guess he could win in a fight.

Zimmerman Knew the cops where on the way.
Martin didn’t know who zimmerman was.[/quote]
X and DN for like 15 pages.

Your edit is irrelevant. There is nothing illegal about asking a question.

144

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Didn’t Zimmerman chase him? Trayvon did not have to wait for Zimmerman to throw a punch; all he needed was the belief that he was in danger and that Zimmerman meant to him harm. It would then be up to the courts to decide if Trayvon’s beliefs were reasonable. [/quote]

  1. Under Zimmerman’s story, there was a “cooling off” period between the first encounter and when Martin came back and confronted him. If — if ---- true, this would kill the provocation theory, since Martin could have simply walked away.

  2. You are muddling Martin’s potential self-defense defense (if alive) with the “provocation” element the prosecution would have. Martin’s state of mind is not relevant to Zimmerman’s defense. (It would be to Martin’s, but Martin is dead.)

145

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
From the 911 tapes it seems we know what Zimmeran thought of Martin (he thought the kid was up to something, maybe on drugs and told the 911 operater “These assholes always get away”)

Its hard to say what Martin thought of Zimmerman other than he wondered why the guy was following him and felt the need to run from Zimmerman.

What they said to each other when they came face to face is anyone’s guess and can go 2000 dif ways if you have a good imagination.

[/quote]
What’s clear is that Zimmerman’s choice of action provoked Trayvon’s. This wasn’t some random assault on Zimmerman. He set the wheels in motion when he didn’t have to and when he was advised not to. [/quote]

Okay. If so what degree of provocation warrants Trayvon to attack? [/quote]

What attack?[/quote]

Didn’t Trayvon throw the first punch?
[/quote]
Didn’t Zimmerman chase him? Trayvon did not have to wait for Zimmerman to throw a punch; all he needed was the belief that he was in danger and that Zimmerman meant to him harm. It would then be up to the courts to decide if Trayvon’s beliefs were reasonable. [/quote]

If you think someone is following you, does that justify throwing your fist at them? That’s basically what I’m asking.

Based on Zimmerman’s school history and interest in law enforcement, I’m more inclined to believe his weapon was concealed and didn’t know he had one.

146

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

But yes, he could’ve been a madman on a rampage running down a kid who ignored him, gun drawn in his own neighborhood to teach a lesson, shot Trayvon in cold blood, beat himself up to create a story and bribed neighbors to create witness statements.[/quote]

Well…that’s a little extreme from my suggestion of Zimmerman being the one offended. But I get it…you’re just balancing the bias,right?? [/quote]
Yes, and extrapolating your assertion in to the general context closing out the last thread.

147

[quote]four60 wrote:
Didn’t Trayvon throw the first punch?

??? Damn I must have missed alot in that other thread??..Or is this another of those “statements not fact” things again?[/quote]

Yes, all we have is Zimmerman’s word that Martin cold-cocked him.

It is, however, the state’s burden to prove otherwise, and that is basically impossible in this situation.

148

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The whole “Theory” that Zimmerman addressed himself a “Neighborhood watch” makes me think.

If I was walking down a block I thought I had every right to walk down and a stranger walked up to me asking questions. Do you live here? What are you doing? I would look at him like he was crazy and walk right pass him.

I’m not sure what I would do if the guy seemed to be following me.[/quote]
And the theory he was just running through a neighborhood, gun drawn, to kill a kid in cold blood?[/quote]

HOLY shit??? where did that come from???

Who sad all of that??

Edit:

Not sure what Theory that came from. But Zimmerman had way more options that Martin.

Zimmerman was in his car. He left it to follow martin.

Zimmerman KNEW he could stop martin in his tracks with the squeeze of a finger,
Martin could only guess he could win in a fight.

Zimmerman Knew the cops where on the way.
Martin didn’t know who zimmerman was.[/quote]
X and DN for like 15 pages.

Your edit is irrelevant. There is nothing illegal about asking a question.[/quote]

I don’t know…alot of relevent statements in that edit…

149

[quote]JLD2k3 wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I just put DarkNinjaa on “ignore” and my experience in this thread is much more enjoyable.[/quote]

Took you this long? Lol.

Won’t miss you either.

150

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Yes, all we have is Zimmerman’s word that Martin cold-cocked him.
[/quote]

How many of you guys see this as being true? That Trayvon more likely than not threw the first punch.

Or do you think Zimmerman is bullshitting?

151

[quote]therajraj wrote:
If you think someone is following you, does that justify throwing your fist at them? That’s basically what I’m asking.[/quote]

Quite possibly, and that might be a defense if Martin was being tried for murder or assault of Zimmerman.

It’s not the right question, however.

The question is “did Zimmerman illegally provoke the ass-whipping he got, such that he can’t rely on the self-defense defense?”

According to the facts we have (which is just Zimmerman’s side of the story), the answer is “no” or “the state can’t prove otherwise.”

152

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Yes, all we have is Zimmerman’s word that Martin cold-cocked him.
[/quote]

How many of you guys see this as being true? That Trayvon more likely than not threw the first punch.

Or do you think Zimmerman is bullshitting?[/quote]

I totally think Zimmerman could be bullshitting. But a hunch is not proof, and you need proof.

153

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
If you think someone is following you, does that justify throwing your fist at them? That’s basically what I’m asking.[/quote]

Quite possibly, and that might be a defense if Martin was being tried for murder or assault of Zimmerman.

It’s not the right question, however.

The question is “did Zimmerman illegally provoke the ass-whipping he got, such that he can’t rely on the self-defense defense?”

According to the facts we have (which is just Zimmerman’s side of the story), the answer is “no” or “the state can’t prove otherwise.”

[/quote]

Yeah, I understand that.

I should’ve clarified, I’m not asking within the context of law, but if people in general here would consider that a reasonable action.

154

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Yes, all we have is Zimmerman’s word that Martin cold-cocked him.
[/quote]

How many of you guys see this as being true? That Trayvon more likely than not threw the first punch.

Or do you think Zimmerman is bullshitting?[/quote]

Who knows? Why run in the first place?

155

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
I can understand why some would want to do that. She does have an overly aggressive/insulting posting style that makes it hard to take her seriously, but there are some things that she writes that are worth reading so I will keep her off ignore.[/quote]

I’m only aggressive/insulting toward people who are aggressive /insulting toward me. I’ve been able to have polite conversations with people in other threads without the need to resort to insults. If personal attacks and insults are brought into the equation then you’ll get it tenfold.

I’m not here to make friends and I won’t let people put me down either. I mind my own business, converse with people who want to do it with me and post anything I find useful on the subject as I’ve done in the previous thread. My anger is directed at Zimmerman and the Sanford Police and, yes I admit some of my posts about that fucker can be quite abrasive. But I won’t apologize for that. If that rubs people the wrong way, that’s their problem. They can put me on ignore. I won’t lose sleep over it.

End of thread hijack

156

[quote]four60 wrote:
Who knows? Why run in the first place?[/quote]

Because some weirdo Mexican* is following you in a truck, at night, in a neighborhood with which you are unfamiliar.

Basically, by having a normal reaction, he looked like a criminal.

Complete clusterfuck series of events.

  • Yes, I know he’s not Mexican, but Martin didn’t know that. And, yes, I am racially profiling Zimmerman, because that’s what typical people do in situations like this.
157

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
Who knows? Why run in the first place?[/quote]

Because some weirdo Mexican* is following you in a truck, at night, in a neighborhood with which you are unfamiliar.

Basically, by having a normal reaction, he looked like a criminal.

Complete clusterfuck series of events.

  • Yes, I know he’s not Mexican, but Martin didn’t know that. And, yes, I am racially profiling Zimmerman, because that’s what typical people do in situations like this.[/quote]

HAHAHA,
Yeah I could understand Fear being a motivator to run from a stranger at night.

158

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

But yes, he could’ve been a madman on a rampage running down a kid who ignored him, gun drawn in his own neighborhood to teach a lesson, shot Trayvon in cold blood, beat himself up to create a story and bribed neighbors to create witness statements.[/quote]

Well…that’s a little extreme from my suggestion of Zimmerman being the one offended. But I get it…you’re just balancing the bias,right?? [/quote]
Yes, and extrapolating your assertion in to the general context closing out the last thread.[/quote]

Gotcha…but don’t let the last thread inadvertently lead to screwing up a good discussion.

159

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Yes, all we have is Zimmerman’s word that Martin cold-cocked him.
[/quote]

How many of you guys see this as being true? That Trayvon more likely than not threw the first punch.

Or do you think Zimmerman is bullshitting?[/quote]

Most likely bullshitting, why sucker punch him if he is leaving you alone? Could go either way though, kids do irrational shit sometimes. I could see it happening more if Martin was in a group trying to impress his friends.

160

Funeral Director speaks out:

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-funeral-director-speaks