Black Teen Shot 3

Swolegasm · April 6, 2012, 1:44pm

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I missed the part where they chase suspects down and question them…or where they consider “suspect” to mean “colorless person walking”.[/quote]

I don’t see how HG/anyone can defend this action. He took the situation and just blew it way up.[/quote]

As did Martin if he was only verbally confronted and attacked Zimmerman . Nothing wrong with him walking away or running away.[/quote]

We still have no facts at what martain did, but his GF did tell him to run. We know Zimmerman ,however, followed him.[/quote]
Nothing in this post is either fact or illegal.[/quote]

I’m just not going to even bother arguing with you.

Swolegasm · April 6, 2012, 1:47pm

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

There is no rational reason to excuse this grown man from chasing after someone and then blame the guy being chased for expecting the worst.

.[/quote]

This. I don’t see how anyone can defend zimmerman.[/quote]

People with no knowledge of self defense law and those who confuse fighting with self defense can.
Martin was 6’ 160 lbs. Zimmerman was 5’9" and some have said 100 lbs heavier . If this is true Martin was some slow 17 year old if he couldn’t get away from Zimmerman . If Zimmerman approached him and words were exchanged Martin is at fault . People approach me all the time .
Once I was having a very bad day and inadvertantly cut an older lady off in a parking lot.
I didn’t even realize I did it and only found out when she grabbed my arm and started berating me. I said I was sorry, told her both to touch me and walked away . Who started this?
She’d say I did I’m sure . But it was done without any damage to anything but her ego. But if I then assaulted her would I be wrong ? She confronted me first ? If I hit her and knocked her down could she legally shoot me? Even if she initiated the confrontation ?
Again, this is not cut and dry either way. You’re a fool if you think so. You need details not edited 911 calls, supposition , lies from Jesse Jackson and knowledge of the Florida laws. [/quote]

Your scenario doesnt really work as the old lady didnt go after you with the intention of arresting you nor did she have a loaded gun i assume?

Professor_X · April 6, 2012, 3:21pm

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

There is no rational reason to excuse this grown man from chasing after someone and then blame the guy being chased for expecting the worst.

.[/quote]

This. I don’t see how anyone can defend zimmerman.[/quote]

People with no knowledge of self defense law and those who confuse fighting with self defense can.
Martin was 6’ 160 lbs. Zimmerman was 5’9" and some have said 100 lbs heavier . If this is true Martin was some slow 17 year old if he couldn’t get away from Zimmerman . If Zimmerman approached him and words were exchanged Martin is at fault . People approach me all the time .
Once I was having a very bad day and inadvertantly cut an older lady off in a parking lot.
I didn’t even realize I did it and only found out when she grabbed my arm and started berating me. I said I was sorry, told her both to touch me and walked away . Who started this?
She’d say I did I’m sure . But it was done without any damage to anything but her ego. But if I then assaulted her would I be wrong ? She confronted me first ? If I hit her and knocked her down could she legally shoot me? Even if she initiated the confrontation ?
Again, this is not cut and dry either way. You’re a fool if you think so. You need details not edited 911 calls, supposition , lies from Jesse Jackson and knowledge of the Florida laws. [/quote]

You are comparing some old woman grabbing your arm to being chased by a grown unknown man in the dark for what seems to be quite a long time (according to the map posted)?

This kid was chased at night. Unless Zimmerman was in a marked car showing who he was, it is NOT irrational to assume anyone being chased at night will assume their life is at risk unless they know who is chasing them. We don’t know exactly what went down. We only know his girl says Tray asked why are you following me…to which Zimmerman apparently did NOT identify himself and in return simply asked more questions.

The idea that anyone on this planet would assume “friendly intentions” in a scenario like this is ridiculous.

Some old lady grabbing your arm in a parking lot that is NOT in a secluded area (like behind some houses in the dark) has nothing to do with this.

HoustonGuy · April 6, 2012, 2:34pm

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I missed the part where they chase suspects down and question them…or where they consider “suspect” to mean “colorless person walking”.[/quote]

I don’t see how HG/anyone can defend this action. He took the situation and just blew it way up.[/quote]

As did Martin if he was only verbally confronted and attacked Zimmerman . Nothing wrong with him walking away or running away.[/quote]

We still have no facts at what martain did, but his GF did tell him to run. We know Zimmerman ,however, followed him.[/quote]
Nothing in this post is either fact or illegal.[/quote]

I’m just not going to even bother arguing with you.[/quote]
Well that’s good because you’re full of shit.

Iron_Dwarf · April 6, 2012, 2:55pm

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Actually it is highly likely he will get prosecuted for a homicide charge. Zimmerman shot Trayvon but his whole case is predicated on a self-defence assumption. Because of the lack of witnesses his self-defence plea could get over shadowed by the fact he engaged Trayvon and started the altercation.

Either way this dudes life is ruined (and rightfully so) because even if he does escape jail he’s going to have a bounty on his head. What a fucking asshole. [/quote]

Yep. He’s going to have to live his life hiding for the most part.

four60 · April 6, 2012, 3:13pm

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
People love "if"s… If Zimmerman stayed in his car. But he didn’t. So no need to talk about it. Talk about what you know he did.

If he just talked to Martin???

Yes, his 911 had all the signs of a rational impartial mind[/quote]

The actual 911 call or the NBC edited version ?[/quote]

I posted the unedited version . I don’t need to comment on if’s or maybes.

four60 · April 6, 2012, 3:20pm

And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

Iron_Dwarf · April 6, 2012, 3:23pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

There is no rational reason to excuse this grown man from chasing after someone and then blame the guy being chased for expecting the worst.

.[/quote]

This. I don’t see how anyone can defend zimmerman.[/quote]

People with no knowledge of self defense law and those who confuse fighting with self defense can.
Martin was 6’ 160 lbs. Zimmerman was 5’9" and some have said 100 lbs heavier . If this is true Martin was some slow 17 year old if he couldn’t get away from Zimmerman . If Zimmerman approached him and words were exchanged Martin is at fault . People approach me all the time .
Once I was having a very bad day and inadvertantly cut an older lady off in a parking lot.
I didn’t even realize I did it and only found out when she grabbed my arm and started berating me. I said I was sorry, told her both to touch me and walked away . Who started this?
She’d say I did I’m sure . But it was done without any damage to anything but her ego. But if I then assaulted her would I be wrong ? She confronted me first ? If I hit her and knocked her down could she legally shoot me? Even if she initiated the confrontation ?
Again, this is not cut and dry either way. You’re a fool if you think so. You need details not edited 911 calls, supposition , lies from Jesse Jackson and knowledge of the Florida laws. [/quote]

You are comparing some old woman grabbing your arm to being chased by a grown unknown man in the dark for what seems to be quite a long time (according to the map posted)?

This kid was chased at night. Unless Zimmerman was in a marked car showing who he was, it is NOT irrational to assume anyone being chased at night will assume their life is at risk unless they know who is chasing them. We don’t know exactly what went down. We only know his girl says Tray asked why are you following me…to which Zimmerman apparently did NOT identify himself and in return simply asked more questions.

The idea that anyone on this planet would assume “friendly intentions” in a scenario like this is ridiculous.
[/quote]

Especially considering Tray was not much older than the age where it’s drilled into our heads today to NOT engage with strangers. One following you at night in the rain is NOT a minor nuisance. It is indeed a threat in the mind of a minor.

tom63 · April 6, 2012, 3:25pm

Holster says a lot. It’s how reasonable people carry firearms and one way cops look for " good guys" on a crime scene.

[quote]overstand wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]JLD2k3 wrote:
According to some he’s already guilty of 1st degree murder, treason, being pasty, racial profiling, and carrying more than 14 clubs in his golf bag. Others are waiting for the facts to come to light. It’s a mixed bag, but if you can ignore 2-3 posters, a good discussion.[/quote]

Has anyone come out with new information about the case? I mean I learned what gun he used a couple days ago (really small Kel tec 9mm) most guys I know that have it don’t even bother with clip holsters they use a pocket holster its a nylon cover that you slip the gun into and put in your pocket. NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT ZIM DID. But its the same pistol

The only other New thing I learned is…well nothing really. Everything else seems to be about both parties past before the actual night.[/quote]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-23/news/os-trayvon-martin-questions-20120323_1_sanford-cops-sanford-police-investigator-suspicious-death

He had a holster.

The Orlando Sentinel is doing a good job separating fact from fiction in this case.[/quote]

tom63 · April 6, 2012, 3:27pm

Exactly . So the exact details , evidence , and witness’s testimony matters then?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

There is no rational reason to excuse this grown man from chasing after someone and then blame the guy being chased for expecting the worst.

.[/quote]

This. I don’t see how anyone can defend zimmerman.[/quote]

People with no knowledge of self defense law and those who confuse fighting with self defense can.
Martin was 6’ 160 lbs. Zimmerman was 5’9" and some have said 100 lbs heavier . If this is true Martin was some slow 17 year old if he couldn’t get away from Zimmerman . If Zimmerman approached him and words were exchanged Martin is at fault . People approach me all the time .
Once I was having a very bad day and inadvertantly cut an older lady off in a parking lot.
I didn’t even realize I did it and only found out when she grabbed my arm and started berating me. I said I was sorry, told her both to touch me and walked away . Who started this?
She’d say I did I’m sure . But it was done without any damage to anything but her ego. But if I then assaulted her would I be wrong ? She confronted me first ? If I hit her and knocked her down could she legally shoot me? Even if she initiated the confrontation ?
Again, this is not cut and dry either way. You’re a fool if you think so. You need details not edited 911 calls, supposition , lies from Jesse Jackson and knowledge of the Florida laws. [/quote]

You are comparing some old woman grabbing your arm to being chased by a grown unknown man in the dark for what seems to be quite a long time (according to the map posted)?

This kid was chased at night. Unless Zimmerman was in a marked car showing who he was, it is NOT irrational to assume anyone being chased at night will assume their life is at risk unless they know who is chasing them. We don’t know exactly what went down. We only know his girl says Tray asked why are you following me…to which Zimmerman apparently did NOT identify himself and in return simply asked more questions.

The idea that anyone on this planet would assume “friendly intentions” in a scenario like this is ridiculous.

Some old lady grabbing your arm in a parking lot that is NOT in a secluded area (like behind some houses in the dark) has nothing to do with this.[/quote]

Professor_X · April 6, 2012, 3:30pm

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

Agreed. Zimmerman had no increased authority than a name badge he wasn’t wearing. He did not identify himself. He was not in a marked car. According to Trayvon’s girl, he didn’t even say who he was when asked…so why does ANYONE think Zimmerman is not at fault here?

I would protect myself from such a person…as would most humans…yet somehow Tray was supposed to just laugh it off and assume the best?

If you chase someone down in the rain, expect that person to think you will harm them.

Zimmerman didn’t id himself because he was convinced he was speaking to a criminal…based on what? What criteria labeled this kid walking home as a criminal?

Are people defending that action just because of the race debate?

HoustonGuy · April 6, 2012, 4:14pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

Agreed. Zimmerman had no increased authority than a name badge he wasn’t wearing. He did not identify himself. He was not in a marked car. According to Trayvon’s girl, he didn’t even say who he was when asked…so why does ANYONE think Zimmerman is not at fault here?

I would protect myself from such a person…as would most humans…yet somehow Tray was supposed to just laugh it off and assume the best?

If you chase someone down in the rain, expect that person to think you will harm them.

Zimmerman didn’t id himself because he was convinced he was speaking to a criminal…based on what? What criteria labeled this kid walking home as a criminal?

Are people defending that action just because of the race debate?[/quote]No, people are “defending” the action because it isn’t illegal, as has been mentioned 73 times.

tom63 · April 6, 2012, 4:19pm

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

The use of force and who should have done what will be determined buy the totality if the evidence . All the testimony of everyone . SYG might not apply. Justifiable homicide might or might not apply. Civil liability might or might not apply.
Zimmerman can be guilty of murder or manslaughter .
He can be found liable for civil damages and found to have been justified to shoot .
Or just justified . But this is all speculation and a rush to judgement based in media reports and our personal biases.
Remember Duke lacrosse? Tawana Brawley, sp? OJ Simpson? Lie, lie, not guilty but civilly liable.
There was a psu ball player, Austin Scott who was accused of rape 4-5 years ago. Exonerated when she was found to be lying .
The facts will all come out and it will be decided .
But I’ll go back to self defense and fighting . People often mix these two up. There was a recent case where a mma guy hit a fellow while he was down after he was defenseless. The guy died and now he faces a murder charge. If he stopped earlier he was in a fight and might have suffered no penalties .
And Martin and Zimmerman can possibly be this case. If Zimmerman was overpowered and Martin was hitting him self defense can apply. No matter what words and actions happened prior to that.
The devil is in the details. When did Zimmerman draw his gun? Did it appear that they were struggling over the weapon ? Did Zimmerman draw and fire after he was down and being hit? All this stuff matters .

four60 · April 6, 2012, 4:28pm

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

The use of force and who should have done what will be determined buy the totality if the evidence . All the testimony of everyone . SYG might not apply. Justifiable homicide might or might not apply. Civil liability might or might not apply.
Zimmerman can be guilty of murder or manslaughter .
He can be found liable for civil damages and found to have been justified to shoot .
Or just justified . But this is all speculation and a rush to judgement based in media reports and our personal biases.
Remember Duke lacrosse? Tawana Brawley, sp? OJ Simpson? Lie, lie, not guilty but civilly liable.
There was a psu ball player, Austin Scott who was accused of rape 4-5 years ago. Exonerated when she was found to be lying .
The facts will all come out and it will be decided .
But I’ll go back to self defense and fighting . People often mix these two up. There was a recent case where a mma guy hit a fellow while he was down after he was defenseless. The guy died and now he faces a murder charge. If he stopped earlier he was in a fight and might have suffered no penalties .
And Martin and Zimmerman can possibly be this case. If Zimmerman was overpowered and Martin was hitting him self defense can apply. No matter what words and actions happened prior to that.
The devil is in the details. When did Zimmerman draw his gun? Did it appear that they were struggling over the weapon ? Did Zimmerman draw and fire
after he was down and being hit? All this stuff matters .[/quote]

I already stated on the last page that the legality of Zimmermans actions once they came into contact with each other is a question that may be unanswerable under the law. But what is not a question is that in this situation he was the pursuer. Not from any News source or family member but from the Unedited 911 tapes. As for Stand your ground you are only talking from the zimmermans side. Where does Martins rights End. Did Martin have a Right to stand his Ground from an Armed Pursuer.

Professor_X · April 6, 2012, 4:35pm

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

Agreed. Zimmerman had no increased authority than a name badge he wasn’t wearing. He did not identify himself. He was not in a marked car. According to Trayvon’s girl, he didn’t even say who he was when asked…so why does ANYONE think Zimmerman is not at fault here?

I would protect myself from such a person…as would most humans…yet somehow Tray was supposed to just laugh it off and assume the best?

If you chase someone down in the rain, expect that person to think you will harm them.

Zimmerman didn’t id himself because he was convinced he was speaking to a criminal…based on what? What criteria labeled this kid walking home as a criminal?

Are people defending that action just because of the race debate?[/quote]No, people are “defending” the action because it isn’t illegal, as has been mentioned 73 times.
[/quote]

Does an action in itself need to be illegal in order for someone to be the main cause of the events that happen afterwards?

Is it illegal to chase after a woman at night down a dark alley? Last I checked, it isn’t. If that woman assumes I am going to hurt her and she kicks me and I shoot her, I get off, right?

Him chasing Trayvon may not be illegal in and of itself…but this is not some event that happened in a vacuum. Common sense dictates if you chase someone at night, they may think you will hurt them, so them protecting themselves from a possible attacker is not strange. or “illegal” either.

Swolegasm · April 6, 2012, 5:13pm

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I missed the part where they chase suspects down and question them…or where they consider “suspect” to mean “colorless person walking”.[/quote]

I don’t see how HG/anyone can defend this action. He took the situation and just blew it way up.[/quote]

As did Martin if he was only verbally confronted and attacked Zimmerman . Nothing wrong with him walking away or running away.[/quote]

We still have no facts at what martain did, but his GF did tell him to run. We know Zimmerman ,however, followed him.[/quote]
Nothing in this post is either fact or illegal.[/quote]

I’m just not going to even bother arguing with you.[/quote]
Well that’s good because you’re full of shit.[/quote]

O sorry I bow to your superior ignorance.

HoustonGuy · April 6, 2012, 5:18pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

Agreed. Zimmerman had no increased authority than a name badge he wasn’t wearing. He did not identify himself. He was not in a marked car. According to Trayvon’s girl, he didn’t even say who he was when asked…so why does ANYONE think Zimmerman is not at fault here?

I would protect myself from such a person…as would most humans…yet somehow Tray was supposed to just laugh it off and assume the best?

If you chase someone down in the rain, expect that person to think you will harm them.

Zimmerman didn’t id himself because he was convinced he was speaking to a criminal…based on what? What criteria labeled this kid walking home as a criminal?

Are people defending that action just because of the race debate?[/quote]No, people are “defending” the action because it isn’t illegal, as has been mentioned 73 times.
[/quote]

Does an action in itself need to be illegal in order for someone to be the main cause of the events that happen afterwards?

Is it illegal to chase after a woman at night down a dark alley? Last I checked, it isn’t. If that woman assumes I am going to hurt her and she kicks me and I shoot her, I get off, right?

Him chasing Trayvon may not be illegal in and of itself…but this is not some event that happened in a vacuum. Common sense dictates if you chase someone at night, they may think you will hurt them, so them protecting themselves from a possible attacker is not strange. or “illegal” either.
[/quote]
Chasing a woman down a dark alley at night and driving through a neighborhood, getting out of a car to ask a question and then returning to your car where you are attacked are not similar scenarios.

Swolegasm · April 6, 2012, 5:19pm

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
And I love how the discussion always overlooks any comment on Martins rights. Zimmerman pursued Martin to the point of making Martin run and Zimmerman losing sight of his own Vehicle.

But it seems to be little concern to anyone that Martin a person running from a pursuer to use his legal Rights under the Laws of Florida to “Stand his Ground”

[/quote]

Agreed. Zimmerman had no increased authority than a name badge he wasn’t wearing. He did not identify himself. He was not in a marked car. According to Trayvon’s girl, he didn’t even say who he was when asked…so why does ANYONE think Zimmerman is not at fault here?

I would protect myself from such a person…as would most humans…yet somehow Tray was supposed to just laugh it off and assume the best?

If you chase someone down in the rain, expect that person to think you will harm them.

Zimmerman didn’t id himself because he was convinced he was speaking to a criminal…based on what? What criteria labeled this kid walking home as a criminal?

Are people defending that action just because of the race debate?[/quote]No, people are “defending” the action because it isn’t illegal, as has been mentioned 73 times.
[/quote]

Does an action in itself need to be illegal in order for someone to be the main cause of the events that happen afterwards?

Is it illegal to chase after a woman at night down a dark alley? Last I checked, it isn’t. If that woman assumes I am going to hurt her and she kicks me and I shoot her, I get off, right?

Him chasing Trayvon may not be illegal in and of itself…but this is not some event that happened in a vacuum. Common sense dictates if you chase someone at night, they may think you will hurt them, so them protecting themselves from a possible attacker is not strange. or “illegal” either.
[/quote]
Chasing a woman down a dark alley at night and driving through a neighborhood, getting out of a car to ask a question and then returning to your car where you are attacked are not similar scenarios.[/quote]

Nothing in this post is fact.

HoustonGuy · April 6, 2012, 5:22pm