Black Teen Shot 3

Off Topic
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[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. [/quote]

WHY?

Zimmerman wasn’t Superman…and he was running after an athlete he was convinced was a criminal and did not belong. Why would he not have his gun drawn?

Please explain this to me because I don’t understand why some of you are OK with the idea that this kid just snapped for no reason but think Zimmerman was acting like such a responsible person.

This guy’s known history does not imply rationality.[/quote]
I agree, Trayvons known history does not imply rationality.

Zimmerman was a concerned citizen who noticed a stranger in his neighborhood that suspiciously matched descriptions of recent robbers.

He rolled up to the kid to ask who he was visiting.

Martin veered off ,building Zimmermans suspicion further, founded or unfounded as we don’t really know what Zimmerman saw Martin doing.

Zimmerman got out of his car to find Martin, without his gun drawn; that is just silly. His most likely intent was to see who Martin was visiting in this private, HOA managed property of which he belonged.

Martin ran, Zimmerman knew police were on the way and headed back to his truck.

Martin attacked Zimmerman.

Why? Who knows. He’s 17. He felt disrespected. Had to “keep it real”. Enjoyed the attention he got for attacking the bus driver and wanted another “notch” on his belt. He wanted to be tough for his girl. He just likes fighting. He buys in to main stream rap culture and its overriding glorification of street violence. Who knows. Why did he attack the bus driver? Purely rational right? One too many pot holes bouncing him around?

He sucker punches Zimmerman, we pick up at testimony and evidence surrounding a dead trayvon.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why someone would have a hard time believing Zimmerman had a gun out. Some people seem to give that man a lot of credit while turning right around and acting like the kid just lost it for no reason.

[/quote]

Looking at DN’s Map the only way I can see Zim even trying this is after the kid turned the corner and had a straight shot to his house Zim walked around and they came face to face. The kid has every reason to try and keep going towards his house and Zim Knowing he called the cops MAY TRY…MAY TRY to stop the kid until the cops came.

But even that may be a stretch. I can see the kid telling him to move while he is trying to get home and Zim trying to Save the block by slowing the kid down and a struggle goes off.

283

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why someone would have a hard time believing Zimmerman had a gun out. Some people seem to give that man a lot of credit while turning right around and acting like the kid just lost it for no reason.

[/quote]

I just don’t see him losing it for no reason. I just don’t. The truth might be somewhere in the middle. But you know what? I don’t think we’ll ever find out the truth. The details will be muddled and messy and complicated just like the Anthony case and He’ll get off. BUt in the end everyone will know he’s guilty of a crime just like she was.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why someone would have a hard time believing Zimmerman had a gun out. Some people seem to give that man a lot of credit while turning right around and acting like the kid just lost it for no reason.

[/quote]
Because it is simply a ridiculous notion.

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[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. [/quote]

WHY?

Zimmerman wasn’t Superman…and he was running after an athlete he was convinced was a criminal and did not belong. Why would he not have his gun drawn?

Please explain this to me because I don’t understand why some of you are OK with the idea that this kid just snapped for no reason but think Zimmerman was acting like such a responsible person.

This guy’s known history does not imply rationality.[/quote]

I’m a bit lost on the calm conversation also. But If the gun was out he would have shot the kid before the scuffle.

[/quote]

No, that implies that Zimmerman was just out to kill someone.

It is very likely that Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing up until he found out who the kid really was. If that is the case, it is very likely he had the gun drawn as intimidation…which would still have been enough for Trayvon to feel like his life was threatened. For all we know, Tray may have simply seen the gun at that time and assumed he was about to die after being chased.

having the gun out doesn’t mean he was about to shoot first and ask questions later.

It DOES change who is at fault.[/quote]

I don’t see the kid being at fault in any scenario given.

But by law once the they struggle all zimmerman needs to say is He was losing and shot in self defense. No need to say the kid didn’t have a clue who this stranger was that was trying to stop him from going home.

I can’t give Zim the credit to figure out anything about that kid other than the thought he gave the 911 operator “he seems like he is on drugs” and “these assholes always get away”

And Zimmermans story just seems to odd also. The kid was freaked enough to run, But somehow became brave and ran back to attack? who does that? At what point does this kid stop thinking Zim is anything other than some stranger following him home?

Zims story is odd.[/quote]

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The Map DN posted:

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[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Yea four60. The legal backlash from shit like this is no good. I don’t think gun control will get worse though, at least at a Federal level. Especially with an election year I feel like every candidate is going to be as phony-moderate as possible to maximize moderate voter participation.[/quote]

I hope not. But it only takes one bad case to make everyone look like a nut.[/quote]
Isn’t that the truth!

And yeah, our collective and loudest fears will be the end of our freedoms.

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“Why do some of you think this way? Why assume the kid just started defending himself for no reason right in front of Dad’s house?”

Because that’s what people do sometimes, man. 90% of the arguments and fights you see on a daily basis at home and at work are people defending themselves over nothing significant. Obviously, Martin’s case was more significant, but my point stands.

And also, no one is saying Z had good judgment or was not misguided. At all. I don’t think he’s a complete idiot who would chase a dude down with a gun drawn.

But his bad judgment does not automatically imply that Martin had good judgment and was not misguided. Is it not possible that a misguided asshole vigilate chases down and rightfully/wrongfully shoots and kills a misguided and poor-judgement kid? Two people can meet and neither could exercise good judgment. Just because Z did wrong does not mean Martin did right.

And, of course, I am not saying Martin did wrong, nor am I justifying his death with the possibility of his bad judgment.

289

[quote]four60 wrote:
It’s crazy to think that both guys seen the other as the Bad Guy.

But I bet this is what happened.[/quote]
Not that crazy. I was just thinking to myself that it’s odd how in a way, X and I are saying the same thing. People have a right to self defense. We see the available details as supportive of different people but in the end believe it a case of self defense.

I will never understand how a fucking Stallone character hauling ass through a neighborhood, gun swinging after a kid is a more rational conclusion than a neighborhood watch asking a stranger in a private neighborhood who he is visiting though. Also, I see no room for racial speculation in either direction.

290

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

And also, no one is saying Z had good judgment or was not misguided. At all. I don’t think he’s a complete idiot who would chase a dude down with a gun drawn.[/quote]

LOL…but he clearly IS an idiot who would chase a man down with a gun “hidden” in the rain yet have no plan of what to do once he caught the “evil criminal”.

[quote]
Is it not possible that a misguided asshole vigilate chases down and rightfully/wrongfully shoots and kills a misguided and poor-judgement kid? Two people can meet and neither could exercise good judgment. Just because Z did wrong does not mean Martin did right.

And, of course, I am not saying Martin did wrong, nor am I justifying his death with the possibility of his bad judgment.[/quote]

You just wrote above that you believed had he just smiled, told the strange wet man with the gun where he lived, and walked away that he wouldn’t be dead.

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There is no question that Z is making shit up. Liars always have to remember more shit. The question is how much of it is bullshit. Martin’s family is making shit up too. The media is making shit up.

Somewhat off topic, but why can’t we just use polygraph tests to aid in the investigation? I’m not an expert, but I’ve heard those things are pretty accurate. A friend of mine was being interrogated when the lady yelled at him for thinking of a song. “I can see the beats on my graph. Stop thinking of the song right this minute.”

EDIT: If Martin hadn’t have run in the beginning, maybe it would have worked. That’s all I’m saying brother. After running (probably for his life), he made himself even more suspicious to Z who was already out to get him. I get that.

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slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think this may be the catalyst for a “race war” or riots of some sort?

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[quote]StevenF wrote:
slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think this may be the catalyst for a “race war” or riots of some sort? [/quote]

It won’t happen. I still have enough faith in our nation to not succumb completely to this nonsense.

294

[quote]StevenF wrote:
slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think this may be the catalyst for a “race war” or riots of some sort? [/quote]

Race war? What sides would be taken and who do you think would win?

Who do the Japanese and Chinese side up with?

Do Indians get their own base camp?

“You people” are silly. I’m off to go lift things up and put them down.

295

[quote]StevenF wrote:
slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think this may be the catalyst for a “race war” or riots of some sort? [/quote]

Charles Manson might, but the last time he predicted a race war it didn’t turn out too well for him. This is a very heated topic, but I hope that once ALL the facts are known people will accept what happens either way.

296

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
“Why do some of you think this way? Why assume the kid just started defending himself for no reason right in front of Dad’s house?”

Because that’s what people do sometimes, man. 90% of the arguments and fights you see on a daily basis at home and at work are people defending themselves over nothing significant. Obviously, Martin’s case was more significant, but my point stands.

And also, no one is saying Z had good judgment or was not misguided. At all. I don’t think he’s a complete idiot who would chase a dude down with a gun drawn.

But his bad judgment does not automatically imply that Martin had good judgment and was not misguided. Is it not possible that a misguided asshole vigilate chases down and rightfully/wrongfully shoots and kills a misguided and poor-judgement kid? Two people can meet and neither could exercise good judgment. Just because Z did wrong does not mean Martin did right.

And, of course, I am not saying Martin did wrong, nor am I justifying his death with the possibility of his bad judgment.[/quote]

This is going to sound rough. But you are right that Martin did something wrong. During the struggle at some point he missed the opportunity to stop Zimmeran from either pulling his gun or Squeezing the trigger.

As for how they came together “I would love to find that mystery out”.

I don’t consider myself a hot head a bully or a thug. But if a stranger is following me at night and I am getting close to home. I’ll try to run home and get my family. If for some reason this guy is inbetween me and my house I’m going to try to go thru him.

I would really like to know how these two came together looking at that map is freaking me out.

I’m out guys.

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I get what StevenF is saying, but in reality, I think Americans in general are going to be more concerned with making their own lives better (going to work, paying bills, raising family, etc) than they are will further bloodshed at no gain to anyone. At least, that’s how I view it. I work with non-white people everyday at my job, see them in the gym, etc. No one suddenly hates one another.

How would a race war have any positive impact? We want to kill black people because they kill us on the streets! Yea!

Wait what?

298

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think this may be the catalyst for a “race war” or riots of some sort? [/quote]

Race war? What sides would be taken and who do you think would win?

Who do the Japanese and Chinese side up with?

Do Indians get their own base camp?

“You people” are silly. I’m off to go lift things up and put them down.[/quote]Lolcat! Nice “You People” though.

FTR I see this becoming a gun rights war.

Which is what the case is actually about.

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So it looks like Zimmerman’s case just took another hit:

Trayvon shooting witness, 13, ‘was pressured by police to support Zimmerman’s story’, says his mother

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I am getting in late on the banter but here is my 2 cents.

For me, the main issue is the intent of the law. If one takes into account the ENTIRE time frame, from when Zimmerman called 911 to the time of the shooting, I do not think the ‘stand your ground’ law applies. Even the 2 legislators who sponsored the bill that is now law, stated since Zimmerman was in a safe place, not in any danger at the beginning, and then followed/pursued Martin to where he then put himself into a position where an altercation can take place, the law does not apply.

If this goes to trial, I would suspect that unless there are other witnesses to back up Zimmermans story that Martin was acting suspicious, then this probably will not be allowed as an argument in court. You can’t just take Zimmermans word that Martin was acting suspicious, hence his reason to follow.

This is going to get very interesting as to how the intent of the law is argued and applied in this case. If one only takes the time frame from altercation to shooting into account, then the law applies. If you take it from the first second of the 911 call, to the shooting, for me it does not.

If Zimmernan does not follow, this never happens.

Just my thoughts.