Black Teen Shot 3

Off Topic
261

[quote]Hellfrost wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That gun didn’t pop out of thin air…and Trayvon reacted for a reason.
[/quote]

This will be the key to this case. If the prosecutor can establish without a reasonable doubt that Trayvon reacted in a ‘Self-Defense’ case, Zimmerman is screwed.[/quote]

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. What would be the best case scenario if he did?

Martin: Oh shit, sorry sir. You have a gun and now I will walk home quietly.

Fuck no. Z isn’t that smart of a guy, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. There would be nothing good to come out of pulling a gun out in the open at a kid in that way.

I would have expected Martin to strike first if Z did pull the gun, but I just don’t believe Z did it. It would take an imbecile to pull that move, completely aside from the vigilante justice attitude.

262

OK, X. I will agree. Bad advice for kids, no doubt.

My point is that you don’t have to come off as a bad-ass-MFer every time a dude on the street comes at you with a bad attitude. That’s my one sentence summary.

And again, you are assuming the gun is out. My previous post asserts otherwise. I think we can both agree that the presence of the weapon concealed or presented makes all the difference here.

263

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. [/quote]

WHY?

Zimmerman wasn’t Superman…and he was running after an athlete he was convinced was a criminal and did not belong. Why would he not have his gun drawn?

Please explain this to me because I don’t understand why some of you are OK with the idea that this kid just snapped for no reason but think Zimmerman was acting like such a responsible person.

This guy’s known history does not imply rationality.

264

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, X. I will agree. Bad advice for kids, no doubt.

My point is that you don’t have to come off as a bad-ass-MFer every time a dude on the street comes at you with a bad attitude. That’s my one sentence summary.

And again, you are assuming the gun is out. My previous post asserts otherwise. I think we can both agree that the presence of the weapon concealed or presented makes all the difference here.[/quote]

???

Are you serious, dude? If someone comes up to you with a bad attitude at night, your best bet is to get the hell out of there or be prepared to fight your way out.

That is reality. I am not sure what you are talking about.

265

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

If Martin had totally kept his cool, then there is no way he’d be dead right now. I AM NOT saying that he should be dead because he lost his cool. But shit man … sometimes smiling and walking away makes aggressors feel like idiots, especially when you are the better man (and he knows it). Martin would be the unsung hero and this story wouldn’t even be on the news at all.[/quote]

?? Once again, this assumes Trayvon didn’t know about the gun by that point. No one is “keeping their cool” with a gun in front of them especially when the guy holding it was chasing you down a dark street for no reason.

It is a strange act to go from calmly talking to your girl on the phone to fighting for your life…and the one thing that can make you do that is the idea that someone is about to KILL you.[/quote]
Or you’re a punk with a tough guy chip. Not uncommon at all.[/quote]
bump

266

Nevermind, man. It’s cool that we disagree and I respect your thoughts. But it’s pretty clear we’ve hijacked this thread.

But I will argue your point about the gun being drawn. You just told me that if a dude on the street approached you, you’d fight or flight. If Martin chose to fight, then by your rationale no gun needed to be present for him to be justified in throwing the first punch. NOT SAYING HE WAS WRONG for doing it. Is this accurate?

Let’s assume Z had no weapon, and Martin still hit him first. According to X, that would be kosher, because he felt threatened and reacted in fight mode. Just trying to wrap my head around it. X, you are saying that Martin would have NOT stuck first if Z had no weapon? That the presence of the weapon was the ONLY thing that caused the response?

267

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. [/quote]

WHY?

Zimmerman wasn’t Superman…and he was running after an athlete he was convinced was a criminal and did not belong. Why would he not have his gun drawn?

Please explain this to me because I don’t understand why some of you are OK with the idea that this kid just snapped for no reason but think Zimmerman was acting like such a responsible person.

This guy’s known history does not imply rationality.[/quote]

I’m a bit lost on the calm conversation also. But If the gun was out he would have shot the kid before the scuffle.

268

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

[quote]Hellfrost wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That gun didn’t pop out of thin air…and Trayvon reacted for a reason.
[/quote]

This will be the key to this case. If the prosecutor can establish without a reasonable doubt that Trayvon reacted in a ‘Self-Defense’ case, Zimmerman is screwed.[/quote]

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. What would be the best case scenario if he did?

Martin: Oh shit, sorry sir. You have a gun and now I will walk home quietly.

Fuck no. Z isn’t that smart of a guy, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. There would be nothing good to come out of pulling a gun out in the open at a kid in that way.

I would have expected Martin to strike first if Z did pull the gun, but I just don’t believe Z did it. It would take an imbecile to pull that move, completely aside from the vigilante justice attitude.[/quote]

Chased the guy with a gun drawn? Unlikely. I wonder at what distance Zimmerman shot the kid from.

He probably pulled up to Martin, Zimmerman flashed his gun at his waist, then Martin decided it was life or death situation.

269

“But If the gun was out he would have shot the kid before the scuffle.”

I thought about that too. But you’ve gotta assume he had a bullet in the chamber and safety off, and assuming he was carrying responsibly, both were probably false. I might be able to swing my fist faster than you can rack the slide and flip the safety.

EDIT: I thought he shot him at point blank. They were struggling, probably right up on eachother.

270

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]Peter Pigsticker wrote:
I would just like to thank this fucking wanna-be superhero for the “Trayvon Martin Bill” that will surely be introduced forthwith and with intention of destroying all rights to self defense. This asshat could have easily called the cops and gone the other direction, but no - he just had to save the day. People like this are the real threat to gun rights in this country.[/quote]

I agree[/quote]

Trust me. The fear of this leading to another “Evil Gun” owner bill sends chills down my spine.

Dumb ass couldnt just buy a Iphone and just Video Martin. [/quote]
Of all places, a Texas legislator is trying to use the as of yet unresolved case to repeal our Stand Your Ground law. He’s getting resistance though.

Link later if necessary, on a phone. The KHOU 11 news channel reported it on their website.[/quote]

And the Fear laws start. I hate when the people we put in office try to calm people down by making laws that strips us all of self protection.

271

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. [/quote]

WHY?

Zimmerman wasn’t Superman…and he was running after an athlete he was convinced was a criminal and did not belong. Why would he not have his gun drawn?

Please explain this to me because I don’t understand why some of you are OK with the idea that this kid just snapped for no reason but think Zimmerman was acting like such a responsible person.

This guy’s known history does not imply rationality.[/quote]

I’m a bit lost on the calm conversation also. But If the gun was out he would have shot the kid before the scuffle.

[/quote]

No, that implies that Zimmerman was just out to kill someone.

It is very likely that Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing up until he found out who the kid really was. If that is the case, it is very likely he had the gun drawn as intimidation…which would still have been enough for Trayvon to feel like his life was threatened. For all we know, Tray may have simply seen the gun at that time and assumed he was about to die after being chased.

having the gun out doesn’t mean he was about to shoot first and ask questions later.

It DOES change who is at fault.

272

Yea four60. The legal backlash from shit like this is no good. I don’t think gun control will get worse though, at least at a Federal level. Especially with an election year I feel like every candidate is going to be as phony-moderate as possible to maximize moderate voter participation.

273

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Nevermind, man. It’s cool that we disagree and I respect your thoughts. But it’s pretty clear we’ve hijacked this thread.

But I will argue your point about the gun being drawn. You just told me that if a dude on the street approached you, you’d fight or flight.[/quote]

No I didn’t. I said if someone approached you with AN ATTITUDE, chasing you WITH A WEAPON. That is a big difference from someone simply approaching you.

[quote]

If Martin chose to fight, then by your rationale no gun needed to be present for him to be justified in throwing the first punch. NOT SAYING HE WAS WRONG for doing it. Is this accurate?[/quote]

He was justified the moment he was chased for no reason.

[quote]

Let’s assume Z had no weapon, and Martin still hit him first. According to X, that would be kosher, because he felt threatened and reacted in fight mode. Just trying to wrap my head around it. X, you are saying that Martin would have NOT stuck first if Z had no weapon? That the presence of the weapon was the ONLY thing that caused the response?[/quote]

Why would anyone think that gun was hidden until the last possible second? That doesn’t make much sense at all considering the wannabe we are talking about.

274

I guess I just don’t understand why someone would have a hard time believing Zimmerman had a gun out. Some people seem to give that man a lot of credit while turning right around and acting like the kid just lost it for no reason.

275

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why would anyone think that gun was hidden until the last possible second? That doesn’t make much sense at all considering the wannabe we are talking about.[/quote]

Makes sense to me dude. Z wasn’t out just to kill in cold blood. I really don’t believe that. That’s a huge stretch.

I don’t believe he chased Martin with a pistol out, round in chamber, safety off, 100% certain that he was going to take life. I don’t even think Martin knew about the pistol until after they started fighting, to be honest. Martin would have died long before he did otherwise. If the pistol was out, he had maybe 5 seconds before Z found the strength to fire.

EDIT: Not saying he “lost his cool” for no reason. Being chased ain’t a bad reason at all. But you can’t tell me that people don’t hit other people over “I don’t like the way he was talking to me” or “He was following me” … however legit those cases may be, none involve weapons.

276

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

I really don’t think Z pulled the gun on the kid. Really don’t. [/quote]

WHY?

Zimmerman wasn’t Superman…and he was running after an athlete he was convinced was a criminal and did not belong. Why would he not have his gun drawn?

Please explain this to me because I don’t understand why some of you are OK with the idea that this kid just snapped for no reason but think Zimmerman was acting like such a responsible person.

This guy’s known history does not imply rationality.[/quote]

I’m a bit lost on the calm conversation also. But If the gun was out he would have shot the kid before the scuffle.

[/quote]

No, that implies that Zimmerman was just out to kill someone.

It is very likely that Zimmerman thought he was doing the right thing up until he found out who the kid really was. If that is the case, it is very likely he had the gun drawn as intimidation…which would still have been enough for Trayvon to feel like his life was threatened. For all we know, Tray may have simply seen the gun at that time and assumed he was about to die after being chased.

having the gun out doesn’t mean he was about to shoot first and ask questions later.

It DOES change who is at fault.[/quote]

I don’t see the kid being at fault in any scenario given.

But by law once the they struggle all zimmerman needs to say is He was losing and shot in self defense. No need to say the kid didn’t have a clue who this stranger was that was trying to stop him from going home.

I can’t give Zim the credit to figure out anything about that kid other than the thought he gave the 911 operator “he seems like he is on drugs” and “these assholes always get away”

And Zimmermans story just seems to odd also. The kid was freaked enough to run, But somehow became brave and ran back to attack? who does that? At what point does this kid stop thinking Zim is anything other than some stranger following him home?

Zims story is odd.

277

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Yea four60. The legal backlash from shit like this is no good. I don’t think gun control will get worse though, at least at a Federal level. Especially with an election year I feel like every candidate is going to be as phony-moderate as possible to maximize moderate voter participation.[/quote]

I hope not. But it only takes one bad case to make everyone look like a nut.

278

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Yea four60. The legal backlash from shit like this is no good. I don’t think gun control will get worse though, at least at a Federal level. Especially with an election year I feel like every candidate is going to be as phony-moderate as possible to maximize moderate voter participation.[/quote]

I hope not. But it only takes one bad case to make everyone look like a nut.[/quote]

Unfortunately true. The same is true even many cases: black guys robs white family, therefore black people are criminals. White guy shoots black kid, therefore gun control is good. I dated a crazy Ukranian girl, therefore Ukranian girls are crazy.

Anecdotal shit like that forms the rule. It sucks.

279

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why would anyone think that gun was hidden until the last possible second? That doesn’t make much sense at all considering the wannabe we are talking about.[/quote]

Makes sense to me dude. Z wasn’t out just to kill in cold blood. I really don’t believe that. That’s a huge stretch.

I don’t believe he chased Martin with a pistol out, round in chamber, safety off, 100% certain that he was going to take life. I don’t even think Martin knew about the pistol until after they started fighting, to be honest. Martin would have died long before he did otherwise. If the pistol was out, he had maybe 5 seconds before Z found the strength to fire.

[/quote]

I already explained this above. It is still very odd that anyone…and I do mean anyone…would give Zimmerman that much credit at this point.

That is just illogical.

Some of you seem to also think that the choices are only “zimmerman had no gun out” or “zimmerman had gun out so he should have shot from across the street”.

No one is saying Zimmerman was out for cold blood that night.

I AM saying he was misguided, had poor judgment, had a very strange need to call the police about EVERYTHING…and he was irrational to chase a kid doing nothing wrong in the rain…but he wouldn’t pull out his gun if he thought his life was at risk?

Why do some of you think this way? Why assume the kid just started defending himself for no reason right in front of Dad’s house?

He wasn’t on some lonely block with his friends where they could get away with anything…so clearly anything that went down would get back to dad quick…yet you all think he just jumped the man for no reason???

Trayvon’s dad doesn’t look someone you play around with…which was probably why he was staying with him after being suspended.

280

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why someone would have a hard time believing Zimmerman had a gun out. Some people seem to give that man a lot of credit while turning right around and acting like the kid just lost it for no reason.

[/quote]

Because teenagers on the whole are immature idiots and show bad judgement on a daily basis. I’ve seen you point out this very fact several times when people have ask you for advice on this board.

Although Zimmerman fucked up by getting out of his car, I’m skeptical to believe a 28 year old who was studying to be a police officer would not know how to manage a firearm. On top of that he had completed the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office citizens’ law-enforcement introduction â?? a 14-week class that met one evening per week. Not saying that would make him an expert but enough to know how to carry a gun and how to manage one.