[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]BE RELENTLESS wrote:
Regarding the significance of “who threw the first punch”, here is some food for thought:
[/quote]
Yeah but he’s just a judge, what does he know about the law? Better get HG’s take on it.[/quote]
Oh you mean like Zimmermans father?
Pretty good advice though as I’ve been right so far.
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely!
And yes, going from running away to casual conversation was not what I meant. Nor did I blame Martin for his own death. I think some of you have misunderstood me a bit.
Follow this, and let’s assume you DO NOT run.
Creepy guy follows you. You don’t have a weapon, and you don’t know if he does or not. It’s dark outside. You’re a kid. Guy starts asking you questions and doesn’t seem particularly. You answer the questions honestly while remaining calm. Do you guys really think this would have ended the same way? Zimmerman’s insatiable ego is defeated and Martin walks away knowing that he was the better man.
How many times in our own lives would conflict resolution like this have been the best answer? Not trying to sound like a sap, I’ve seen and done some shit in Afghanistan and violence isn’t always the right choice, even when you are scared.
That’s all I was trying to say. Just trying to make good conversation.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Hellfrost wrote:
If someone confronts me in the middle of the night brandishing their weapon, and I am in range to physically disable him, you bet your damn ass I am not going to wait around to find out what his intentions are. [/quote]
…nor will I smile and simply turn my back on the ARMED INDIVIDUAL and laugh it off as if bullets don’t hurt.[/quote]
Your best bet is to disarm the other person as soon as possible or risk the possibility of running away and getting shot. I am willing to bet Zimmerman flashed his gun at him in a threatening manner. That is the only reason why I personally would throw all logic out the window and go for someones windpipe. I don’t care if you are telling me you are the pope, it’s live or die at that moment.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
I’ll throw my THEORY into the fold. But if I had to guess It seems like:
Zimmerman was on his way to the story in his car and seen Martin coming back from the store (but zim does not know this).
Zimmerman starts to follow martin calls 911 and at some point leaves his car (its still up in the air if he calls 911 from his car or on foot).
Martin sees Zimmerman following him. Stops walks back to see who this guy is gets scared/freaks out or whatever and starts to run.
Zimmerman still on the phone with 911 feels he has the right idea about Martin starts off after him. They meet, struggle, zimmerman now knows he is in a bad spot because the fight is more than he can take (meaning he feels he may die or be really hurt) and shoots martin.
Why do I feel Zimmerman had the courage to follow Martin.
1-he knows he has a gun
2-he feels justice is on his side because he thinks Martin is a crimminal (he states it in the 911)
3-He KNOWS the cops are coming to back him up.
All of the above could be off. But its what I see from everything said so far.[/quote]
I really agree with this. This is probably what happened. Nothing in this theory is really outrageous or unbelievable.
I’m not saying Martin was right or wrong, but I don’t think I would ever start a street brawl with another guy because he started questioning me, especially if I don’t have a weapon. Call me a pussy but it’s not worth my life or his to create drama in this way.
Chances are that someone that aggressive is going to have a knife/ice pick at a minimum (true for Zim). What good could possibly come out of it? Answer the questions, tell him to mind his business, and just walk away. If he hits you, then fight back. Imagine this:
Zim: Why the fuck are you here?
Martin: My father’s fiance lives in this area. I’m just visiting.
Zim: I don’t believe you, kid.
Martin: She lives on XYZ street and I’m heading there now, back from the store.
If Martin had totally kept his cool, then there is no way he’d be dead right now. I AM NOT saying that he should be dead because he lost his cool. But shit man … sometimes smiling and walking away makes aggressors feel like idiots, especially when you are the better man (and he knows it). Martin would be the unsung hero and this story wouldn’t even be on the news at all.[/quote]
Man, I wish it went down like that.
To be honest I’m still trying to wrap my head around how does someone go from running away to a conversation?
The whole running away part went down on the 911 call.
I wonder what will show up on the girlfriends phone call…if anything at all I don’t hear much about it anymore.
[/quote]
I believe Tray initially ran, then lost Zimm, but Zimm took a different route and caught up to and cornered Tray. Is that what you mean?
[/quote]
What I’m wondering is If Im freaked out enough to Run from someone what calms me down enough to even have this conversation.
I’m running from you but now I’m stoping to hear you talk?
If that map that DN posted is right the kid was shot what not far from home maybe a block
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely![/quote]
I don’t believe that’s the case, simply because if someone is at the point where they have their gun drawn at you, your only option is to raise your hands in the air and yield. Why would a random kid start violently hitting another stranger? I am willing to bet Zimmerman made some sort of physical threat by showing his gun.
If a dude pulled a gun, I’d fight him. As I said, that changes everything. If a dude insulted me on the street without straight-up threatening to kill me, let that shit roll off. You’re better than that.
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely![/quote]
??
We don’t have many FACTS. I sure as hell don’t believe Zimmerman and this kid’s actions sound like something I and everyone I know would do if they thought their life was in danger. There was zero reason for this kid to attack unless his life was on the line.
I think the real question is why anyone would think this is the most unlikely scenario.
[quote]
Creepy guy follows you. You don’t have a weapon, and you don’t know if he does or not. It’s dark outside. You’re a kid. Guy starts asking you questions and doesn’t seem particularly. You answer the questions honestly while remaining calm. Do you guys really think this would have ended the same way? Zimmerman’s insatiable ego is defeated and Martin walks away knowing that he was the better man.[/quote]
WHY WOULD I ANSWER SOME STRANGER AT NIGHT WITH PERSONAL INFO ABOUT WHERE I LIVE? So he can kill the whole family?
No offense, but this isn’t Sesame Street.
If your life is on the line, you go into a fight or flight response. Your pleasant take on all of this seems to ignore adrenalin and a weapon.
That gun didn’t pop out of thin air…and Trayvon reacted for a reason.
[quote]Hellfrost wrote:
If someone confronts me in the middle of the night brandishing their weapon, and I am in range to physically disable him, you bet your damn ass I am not going to wait around to find out what his intentions are. [/quote]
x2 man oh man…makes me wonder…if Zimmerman ever had a chance to get a word out? IF he rolled up all aggressive and all? “Yo what the fuck you doing in here man?” Like all aggresive and shit. “Stay right where you are!” I’d fuck his shit up too.
Interesting points.
It’s crazy to think that both guys seen the other as the Bad Guy.
But I bet this is what happened.
[quote]Hellfrost wrote:
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely![/quote]
I don’t believe that’s the case, simply because if someone is at the point where they have their gun drawn at you, your only option is to raise your hands in the air and yield. Why would a random kid start violently hitting another stranger? I am willing to bet Zimmerman made some sort of physical threat by showing his gun. [/quote]
I disagree entirely with your question. Why would a kid start a fight with another guy? Because the other guy got on his nerves. “Disrepected” him, etc. Is that not the reason why high school kids get in fights in the first place? I can see a young kid full of energy and youth wanting to blast this fat dudes face open for questioning his integrity. That doesn’t sound too far off par, does it?
EDIT: Responding to X … brother, I see your points. I really do. But you can’t tell me that the ONLY reason kids fight is for their lives. You ever been in a high school fight? I have. Got suspended for fist fighting with my friend because he cheated in playing spades. Shit wasn’t cool. No one life was in danger.
There is no question that Zimmerman’s tone was aggressive and asshole-like. Martin MAY have to chose to hit him first for this reason. Maybe he felt scared for his life, or maybe he just didn’t like being talked to like an idiot.
Just a thought.
[quote]four60 wrote:
What I’m wondering is If Im freaked out enough to Run from someone what calms me down enough to even have this conversation.
I’m running from you but now I’m stoping to hear you talk?
If that map that DN posted is right the kid was shot what not far from home maybe a block
[/quote]
All we have is Zimmerman’s word…so that kid may not have even really been running away from Zimmerman at first. He was headed home…and we don’t have his side of the story.
from his girl, we know they talked and then immediately started fighting…and I know of one thing that would make me do that.
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely!
And yes, going from running away to casual conversation was not what I meant. Nor did I blame Martin for his own death. I think some of you have misunderstood me a bit.
Follow this, and let’s assume you DO NOT run.
Creepy guy follows you. You don’t have a weapon, and you don’t know if he does or not. It’s dark outside. You’re a kid. Guy starts asking you questions and doesn’t seem particularly. You answer the questions honestly while remaining calm. Do you guys really think this would have ended the same way? Zimmerman’s insatiable ego is defeated and Martin walks away knowing that he was the better man.
How many times in our own lives would conflict resolution like this have been the best answer? Not trying to sound like a sap, I’ve seen and done some shit in Afghanistan and violence isn’t always the right choice, even when you are scared.
That’s all I was trying to say. Just trying to make good conversation.[/quote]
Not a fact or even sound assumption by any stretch of the imagination.
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
[quote]Hellfrost wrote:
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely![/quote]
I don’t believe that’s the case, simply because if someone is at the point where they have their gun drawn at you, your only option is to raise your hands in the air and yield. Why would a random kid start violently hitting another stranger? I am willing to bet Zimmerman made some sort of physical threat by showing his gun. [/quote]
I disagree entirely with your question. Why would a kid start a fight with another guy? Because the other guy got on his nerves. “Disrepected” him, etc. Is that not the reason why high school kids get in fights in the first place? I can see a young kid full of energy and youth wanting to blast this fat dudes face open for questioning his integrity. That doesn’t sound too far off par, does it?[/quote]
???
It is NIGHT TIME.
Zimmerman is a STRANGER.
Are you saying if a stranger walked up to you at night and asked where you are headed, YOU WOULD TELL THEM?
LOL.
please don’t do something like that if you have a family at home.
Uh Oh… it sort of happened again…
http://news.yahoo.com/911-caller-arrested-deadly-police-shooting-074541485.html
[quote]BE RELENTLESS wrote:
Uh Oh… it sort of happened again…
http://news.yahoo.com/911-caller-arrested-deadly-police-shooting-074541485.html[/quote]
He lied about them having a gun…and they may or may not be the ones who actually did anything…if anything was stolen at all.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
I apologize if I am misinformed, but he had his weapon out? Like pointed at the kid? Is this a fact? X makes it seem like it is, and I might have missed it while skimming this thread. That changes things entirely![/quote]
??
We don’t have many FACTS. I sure as hell don’t believe Zimmerman and this kid’s actions sound like something I and everyone I know would do if they thought their life was in danger. There was zero reason for this kid to attack unless his life was on the line.
I think the real question is why anyone would think this is the most unlikely scenario.
I really believe he had to have reacted for a reason as well. I don’t see this as some kid who would just irrationally jump on Zimmerman and start attacking him for no logical reason as some suggest.
YOU HEAR Zimmerman say the kid is starting to run. He probably cut him off, ran and grabbed a hold of him…thinking he was just another “Asshole” who would get away. Not on his “WATCH” grabbed the kid probably intending to hold him until the cops come…kid has no clue what’s going on and fights for his life…with Zimmerman killing him in the end.
Is it also not logical to think Zimmerman could’ve been Inebriated? I mean…we don’t know…afterall…HE WASN’T TESTED. They could’ve assumed he wasn’t drunk/high at the scene…but wouldn’t that just be conjecture???
X: There is a sensible answer to the question. Tell him you are headed home. Leave it at that, hell I don’t know. I’m not trying to paint a Sesame Street picture here. I didn’t exactly grow up in the ‘burbs and I didn’t have a wonderful childhood. Been jumped and beat up and robbed quite a bit. I’m speaking from experience when I say that sometimes just walking away (even at night, even with strangers, even in dark alleys) works sometimes. Worked more often that I thought it would, almost like a freakin’ movie sometimes. Fighting almost never does, and I’ve been there too.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
That gun didn’t pop out of thin air…and Trayvon reacted for a reason.
[/quote]
This will be the key to this case. If the prosecutor can establish without a reasonable doubt that Trayvon reacted in a ‘Self-Defense’ case, Zimmerman is screwed.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
What I’m wondering is If Im freaked out enough to Run from someone what calms me down enough to even have this conversation.
I’m running from you but now I’m stoping to hear you talk?
If that map that DN posted is right the kid was shot what not far from home maybe a block
[/quote]
All we have is Zimmerman’s word…so that kid may not have even really been running away from Zimmerman at first. He was headed home…and we don’t have his side of the story.
from his girl, we know they talked and then immediately started fighting…and I know of one thing that would make me do that.[/quote]
It would make since. Zimmerman was following the kid while on the phone with 911. The kid does not know what Zimmerman is doing, turns to see what is goin on and freaks out and runs. Zimmerman keeps following. Look how far Zimmerman was from his car when they met up the map show they where headed in the direction of Martin’s house or the place he was staying.
What I’m saying is I don’t see this calm conversation that was suggested. I can see a yelling conversation while one is running and the other is following.
But this whole one guy is calm and the other is crazy don’t add up.
[quote]njrusmc wrote:
X: There is a sensible answer to the question. Tell him you are headed home.[/quote]
You keep saying this. It is night time and he is talking to a stranger in a GATED COMMUNITY. Why would someone tell a stranger ANYTHING at night about where they are headed?
You make it seem like the idea of someone randomly killing you at night isn’t an issue here.
You recommendation is one I hope you never give to any kids because it is BAD ADVICE that could get someone and their whole family killed.
Criminals don’t care how nice you are if they plan to kill you.
[quote]
Leave it at that, hell I don’t know. I’m not trying to paint a Sesame Street picture here. I didn’t exactly grow up in the ‘burbs and I didn’t have a wonderful childhood. Been jumped and beat up and robbed quite a bit. I’m speaking from experience when I say that sometimes just walking away (even at night, even with strangers, even in dark alleys) works sometimes. Worked more often that I thought it would, almost like a freakin’ movie sometimes. Fighting almost never does, and I’ve been there too.[/quote]
Dude, you seem to not have lived in any neighborhoods like mine. There is no way in hell I am going to “politely answer questions with a smile” at night to a stranger demanding an answer for no reason with a gun.