[quote]doogie wrote:
knewsom wrote:
…you sure he was white? Maybe I’m getting him confused with somebody else.
Shit, ask me about ancient China and I can name the first ten dynasties including the warring states period, but I can’t remember the difference between shoeless joe and some other dude who I’m getting him mixed up with.
gah!
Jackie Robinson would be who you are looking for. It’d be worth it to read up on all the shit the man endured.[/quote]
AHA! THAT’S the guy I was thinking of, not shoeless joe. I saw a play about him… I’m just awful with names.
Coming together for me now? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Last time I checked slavery was slavery.
Interesting. Last I checked, someone could not morph or change their skin color unless they are Micheal Jackson. Having your entire race enslaved and marked as less than human means that everywhere you go, you are considered less than a man. Not one other race has experienced that on that level aside from ancient Jews. Slavery may just be slavery to you, but when there is no escaping it and the effects last so long even after slavery, the race in question isn’t even accepted into society as an equal until over a century later, slavery is not just slavery. It becomes a social scar that affects several generations after the act. It means those “freed slaves” can’t vote, can’t get paid as equals, can’t eat in the same room as the majority, can’t drink out of the same water fountains as the majority, can’t go to college (thusly why historically black colleges exist to begin with), and despite inventions and innovations, can’t even be looked upon as an intelligent force to be recognized.
That is what that is supposed to mean. Perhaps if you pulled your head out of your ass just long enough to realize that your world view may need minor ammending, you just might be able to understand this yourself.[/quote]
My head out of my ass? You couldn’t be more wrong, but you wouldn’t be able to look past your own veil of ignorance to see it. Who the fuck are you to make a judgement on my world view? You don’t know anything about me or my world view. Ever think yours could use some adjusting? Oh and by the way, did you forget that most Africans were sold into slavery by their own people? Left out that little fact in your ranting. All I was trying to do earlier was make sure you had the entire story covered and the facts right because I thought you had some good things to say, respected your opinion and wanted to make sure you maintained validity. But you had to be an ass about it, and it’s disappointing to see someone of obvious intelligence do something so foolish as to judge another who he does not know.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
Dont criticize corretta scott king you racist doogie. Thats WRONG! She’s beyond any criticism kind of like jesus.
[quote]JMUdude509 wrote:
and it’s disappointing to see someone of obvious intelligence do something so foolish as to judge another who he does not know.[/quote]
As if you haven’t judged me? None of the erases what I wrote before and you even failed in this post to show I am wrong so what is the issue? If I am so wrong and need to change my world view, show me what was wrong. If I am not wrong, then either admit that you were or leave the topic alone.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
How about a thread dedicated to all the great black men and women of our country? One of my favorite quotes:
“We must all learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
--- MLK
And a good start would be to get rid of black history month and realize we are all on the same planet. What is the relevance of a persons skin color to their achievements? In my brief journey here I have read of and witnessed to great acts of courage, cowardice, genius and depravity by all races, genders and sexual orientations of PEOPLE.
You don’t get self-esteem from me for being a member of certain race. You earn it individually.
[/quote]
You think there mutually exclusive? There can’t be pride in race, ethnicity, culture and relgious heritage in addition to recognizing people for their intrincis worth?
[quote]JMUdude509 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
JMUdude509 wrote:
Coming together for me now? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Last time I checked slavery was slavery.
Interesting. Last I checked, someone could not morph or change their skin color unless they are Micheal Jackson. Having your entire race enslaved and marked as less than human means that everywhere you go, you are considered less than a man. Not one other race has experienced that on that level aside from ancient Jews. Slavery may just be slavery to you, but when there is no escaping it and the effects last so long even after slavery, the race in question isn’t even accepted into society as an equal until over a century later, slavery is not just slavery. It becomes a social scar that affects several generations after the act. It means those “freed slaves” can’t vote, can’t get paid as equals, can’t eat in the same room as the majority, can’t drink out of the same water fountains as the majority, can’t go to college (thusly why historically black colleges exist to begin with), and despite inventions and innovations, can’t even be looked upon as an intelligent force to be recognized.
That is what that is supposed to mean. Perhaps if you pulled your head out of your ass just long enough to realize that your world view may need minor ammending, you just might be able to understand this yourself.
My head out of my ass? You couldn’t be more wrong, but you wouldn’t be able to look past your own veil of ignorance to see it. Who the fuck are you to make a judgement on my world view? You don’t know anything about me or my world view. Ever think yours could use some adjusting? Oh and by the way, did you forget that most Africans were sold into slavery by their own people? Left out that little fact in your ranting. All I was trying to do earlier was make sure you had the entire story covered and the facts right because I thought you had some good things to say, respected your opinion and wanted to make sure you maintained validity. But you had to be an ass about it, and it’s disappointing to see someone of obvious intelligence do something so foolish as to judge another who he does not know.[/quote]
Why does that matter? Mostly, African tribes sold prisoners of war from other tribes to the slave traders. We still have prisoners of war; we just don’t sell them into slavery. Regardless, what the Africans did has little to no bearing on the conduct of the Americans of the time and what it meant.
[quote]doogie wrote:
knewsom wrote:
…you sure he was white? Maybe I’m getting him confused with somebody else.
Shit, ask me about ancient China and I can name the first ten dynasties including the warring states period, but I can’t remember the difference between shoeless joe and some other dude who I’m getting him mixed up with.
gah!
Jackie Robinson would be who you are looking for. It’d be worth it to read up on all the shit the man endured.[/quote]
Jackie Robinson was a great man. Great ballplayer and incredibly mature.
He proved he belonged with his on the field play and he kept his temper with the continual harrassment he received.
I think we should have a national Jackie Robinson day.
“Why does that matter? Mostly, African tribes sold prisoners of war from other tribes to the slave traders. We still have prisoners of war; we just don’t sell them into slavery. Regardless, what the Africans did has little to no bearing on the conduct of the Americans of the time and what it meant.”
Are you serious? Are you trying to say that the African tribes didn’t know they were going into slavery OR ENGAGED IN IT THEMSELVES?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
doogie wrote:
knewsom wrote:
…you sure he was white? Maybe I’m getting him confused with somebody else.
Shit, ask me about ancient China and I can name the first ten dynasties including the warring states period, but I can’t remember the difference between shoeless joe and some other dude who I’m getting him mixed up with.
gah!
Jackie Robinson would be who you are looking for. It’d be worth it to read up on all the shit the man endured.
Jackie Robinson was a great man. Great ballplayer and incredibly mature.
He proved he belonged with his on the field play and he kept his temper with the continual harrassment he received.
I think we should have a national Jackie Robinson day.[/quote]
I remember reading one of those picture books about him when I was in the 1st grade. You know, the ones where the famous person has an imaginary friend that follows them until they grow up. His was a ball of yarn that he used to throw as a kid because he couldn’t afford a real ball.
Anywhoo, they used to throw black cats on the baseball field to mock him or throw garbage at him while he played. I don’t see how anyone can pretend as if things like affirmative action weren’t ever needed seeing as how slowly change was taking place on its own. I can only imagine where someone like that could have made it to physically if he wasn’t being mentally burned out on a daily basis by that shit. He was probably even greater than his performance.
[quote]knewsom wrote:
singram wrote:
Well,I for one can’t wait for Irish American day,or St.Pattys Day.I celebrate my ethnic history by getting loaded and acting a bigger fool than I normally do.Seriously,this thread has gotten way off the mark.My favorite African American is BB King.Great music.Without him,we have no Elvis,or probably a different sounding Elvis,and our music now would probably sound very different.
A-Freakin’ MEN. BB King is the MAN.
Also, since it hasn’t been mentioned yet, I’d also like to give some respect out for “Shoeless” Joe Jackson and all the other African American atheletes who pushed the envelope and by their own acts of courage helped bring an end to segregation.[/quote]
Shoeless Joe was a white man. Amen on the rest, though.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Not all Africans in America were slaves. Generally the ones south of the Mason Dixon line were slaves and the ones in the north were free.
Africans in Africa were not all enslaved but some were held as slaves by Arabs and other Africans. It is still happening today over in parts of Africa.
All races have been held as slaves, usually by their own races.
The African slaves in America is probably the most egregious example of one race holding another in slavery.
It is a shameful part of our history.
As I understood, slavery, for the most part, was about whoever won the wars that were fought.
The Jews, and the blacks in America, are the two examples of a race being held simply because of their color or creed, and not because they lost a battle or war of some sort.
Although feudalism was a form of slavery, one could also say that the subjegation of Ireland was a type of slavery. The lines blur once you get out of the realm of “You will work my land for free”.
And Btm, there’s the things, they’re called “books” and some of them talk about this stuff that happened a rreeaallllyyy long time ago ( “history”). You might want to check them out, even though you might not be interested in things that happened a reeallllyy long time ago, because it kind of affects the present…just a little…[/quote]
Yea, thanks. Maybe you could elaborate on what fucking point your trying to make other than to try and act like I’m stupid and uneducated. Which is hardly the case. Any time you want to go head to head in a history knowledge contest you just let me know.
“Why does that matter? Mostly, African tribes sold prisoners of war from other tribes to the slave traders. We still have prisoners of war; we just don’t sell them into slavery. Regardless, what the Africans did has little to no bearing on the conduct of the Americans of the time and what it meant.”
Are you serious? Are you trying to say that the African tribes didn’t know they were going into slavery OR ENGAGED IN IT THEMSELVES?
I trully hope that is not what you are saying.
Both sides were culpable.
JeffR
[/quote]
Are you saying this to take away some of the fault of America in this act or as a true desire for historical reference? Every time I see someone do this, it comes across as more of the former.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
How about a thread dedicated to all the great black men and women of our country? One of my favorite quotes:
“We must all learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
--- MLK
And a good start would be to get rid of black history month and realize we are all on the same planet. What is the relevance of a persons skin color to their achievements? In my brief journey here I have read of and witnessed to great acts of courage, cowardice, genius and depravity by all races, genders and sexual orientations of PEOPLE.
You don’t get self-esteem from me for being a member of certain race. You earn it individually.
You think there mutually exclusive? There can’t be pride in race, ethnicity, culture and relgious heritage in addition to recognizing people for their intrincis worth?[/quote]
Yea, thats what I’m saying. OR could I be saying that I don’t go up and like someone just because of skin color or whatever. I don’t dislike them either. Isn’t that the real goal?
Now, you and Prof X and FIrish start twisting these words into some dumbass tangent that totally misses the point. Ready, Set, Go. I’m gonna go read a book. Perhaps a dictionary.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
doogie wrote:
knewsom wrote:
…you sure he was white? Maybe I’m getting him confused with somebody else.
Shit, ask me about ancient China and I can name the first ten dynasties including the warring states period, but I can’t remember the difference between shoeless joe and some other dude who I’m getting him mixed up with.
gah!
Jackie Robinson would be who you are looking for. It’d be worth it to read up on all the shit the man endured.
Jackie Robinson was a great man. Great ballplayer and incredibly mature.
He proved he belonged with his on the field play and he kept his temper with the continual harrassment he received.
I think we should have a national Jackie Robinson day.
I remember reading one of those picture books about him when I was in the 1st grade. You know, the ones where the famous person has an imaginary friend that follows them until they grow up. His was a ball of yarn that he used to throw as a kid because he couldn’t afford a real ball.
Anywhoo, they used to throw black cats on the baseball field to mock him or throw garbage at him while he played. I don’t see how anyone can pretend as if things like affirmative action weren’t ever needed seeing as how slowly change was taking place on its own. I can only imagine where someone like that could have made it to physically if he wasn’t being mentally burned out on a daily basis by that shit. He was probably even greater than his performance.[/quote]
Without all the added stress and distraction who knows what kind of numbers the guy could have put up.
He was truly a great American. A role model for anyone to do their best and keep their focus in the most difficult circumstances.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
How about a thread dedicated to all the great black men and women of our country? One of my favorite quotes:
“We must all learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
--- MLK
And a good start would be to get rid of black history month and realize we are all on the same planet. What is the relevance of a persons skin color to their achievements? In my brief journey here I have read of and witnessed to great acts of courage, cowardice, genius and depravity by all races, genders and sexual orientations of PEOPLE.
You don’t get self-esteem from me for being a member of certain race. You earn it individually.
You think there mutually exclusive? There can’t be pride in race, ethnicity, culture and relgious heritage in addition to recognizing people for their intrincis worth?
Yea, thats what I’m saying. OR could I be saying that I don’t go up and like someone just because of skin color or whatever. I don’t dislike them either. Isn’t that the real goal?
Now, you and Prof X and FIrish start twisting these words into some dumbass tangent that totally misses the point. Ready, Set, Go. I’m gonna go read a book. Perhaps a dictionary.[/quote]
So you are saying that someone can be proud of being black or jewish or whatever not because of the mere fact of it but because of the history and culture of their people and traditions that in a very real sense make up a large of them and that they take pride in their people having overcome diversity? As well as individual achievements and personality traits that have nothing to do with their race or relgion and the experiences that shaped them and their ancestors? Both together, bother acknowleged and apprecitated. Then, congratulations-we’re saying the same thing.
“Why does that matter? Mostly, African tribes sold prisoners of war from other tribes to the slave traders. We still have prisoners of war; we just don’t sell them into slavery. Regardless, what the Africans did has little to no bearing on the conduct of the Americans of the time and what it meant.”
Are you serious? Are you trying to say that the African tribes didn’t know they were going into slavery OR ENGAGED IN IT THEMSELVES?
I trully hope that is not what you are saying.
Both sides were culpable.
JeffR
[/quote]
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that we are Americans. We are not Africans. What they did was wrong but doesn’t have any bearing or minimize the wrong that our own ancestors perpetuated. Sure, maybe in apportioning intial ‘blame’ but Americans’ choice to engage in the slave trade and the keeping and treatment of slaves (who themselves were innocent in all of it) long after importation from Africa had ended.
I am all politicked out for this week. Not that I didn’t enjoy debating with people here. However, the remainder of my posts, if any this weekend, will be related to training. Everyone, have a great weekend.
“Are you saying this to take away some of the fault of America in this act or as a true desire for historical reference? Every time I see someone do this, it comes across as more of the former.”
I’m going to ask you to be honest. How much of a post do you read? Is it one, two, or more sentences?
Seriously.
When I wrote: “Both sides were culpable” was I wasting my time?
I am certainly NOT trying to excuse slavery in the United States. However, to make it a black and white issue is dead wrong.
I think that history teachers and society in general do a terrible job discussing the slave ports on the coast of Africa. There the captured tribesman were sold to the European slavers. You tell me, pox, how much of the African slave trade would have occurred without the complicity of the Africans capturing other Africans?
Oh, there was a slavery market in Africa prior to the Europeans and it has continued UNTIL TODAY (see my article from yesterday)
The Africans are just as guilty.
(This would be a good time to agree with the last sentence/it’s the truth)
[quote]JeffR wrote:
I am certainly NOT trying to excuse slavery in the United States. However, to make it a black and white issue is dead wrong. [/quote]
It was a black or white issue. Slavery as far as ownership of another human being like property was wrong. There are no gradients as far as that is concerned.
[quote]
I think that history teachers and society in general do a terrible job discussing the slave ports on the coast of Africa. There the captured tribesman were sold to the European slavers. You tell me, pox, how much of the African slave trade would have occurred without the complicity of the Africans capturing other Africans?[/quote]
Again, here you make statements as if someone else’s evil excuses the evil acts of others. There were EVIL AFRICANS. What does that have to do with EVIL AMERICANS?
[quote]
Oh, there was a slavery market in Africa prior to the Europeans and it has continued UNTIL TODAY (see my article from yesterday)
The Africans are just as guilty.
(This would be a good time to agree with the last sentence/it’s the truth)
JeffR[/quote]
What does this have to do with slavery in AMERICA? Who here has written that they didn’t know that there were Africans involved in some of this? I am aware of it as I am sure most everyone else is. Were Africans the ones who decided that black Africans were not fully human? Were Africans the ones who took away the rights of black Americans in this country when it comes to voting or even getting paid equally?
I asked you a specific question before and you avoided it. One more time, are you bringing up this issue to decrease the fault of America? If not, then what does evil in Africa have to do directly with the evil that continued here even after slavery was “abolished”?
