Reparations would work to move race relations forward huh?
How did blacks respond to the removal of the confederate flag?
I think I’ve demonstrated above that ‘blame’ need not enter into it.
I’m not familiar with the “pillars” of which you speak–can you expand?
Are you suggesting those events were the product of attempts at racial reconciliation?
This captures the problem perfectly - you automatically assume that the lack of prosperity is a function of the land stolen over the course of several generations and nothing else, and done without the agency of the people you would hold liable (and make pay). However, over the course of several generations, thousands of events could have intervened to cause or aggravate the struggling. That’s an unwarranted leap of logic absent direct causation.
But, your analogy is flawed in a different respect - it can’t fairly translate to a group. You and I could (in theory) hash out liability for the stolen as between two people based on our specific facts and circumstances, and hash out causation (or not) to figure out liability. But trying to extrapolate that assumption of “stolen land caused this person” to every person in every instance when every person’s circumstances are actually quite different skips too many steps in the process to make it fair.
That doesn’t mean I don’t think slavery, Jim Crow, etc. and their vestiges didn’t affect people. Sure they did. But to punish someone by making them pay for the wrongdoing requires they have some agency in the wrongdoing on an individualized basis.
This I don’t quite follow. It’s an act of wrongdoing to refuse to entertain formal discussions?[quote=“EyeDentist, post:1370, topic:228119”]
OK then, how would you propose we (the national ‘we’) work through the issues of slavery, Jim Crow and the present-day injustices that stem from them?
[/quote]
Same way we’ve been doing it, I think - dialogue and democracy at every level of society. Reparations, at base, is simply a suggested solution to already identified race-related problems. I don’t think it’s a good solution, but more importantly, I don’t think it adds all that much to our understanding of race-related problems.
We see race-related problems right before us - how do we set up the right system of carrots and sticks to prevent discrimination going forward? The goal going forward is a society free of racial discrimination. A cash payment to individuals isn’t going to make people discriminate less in the future, so I think we should look at other possible solutions.
1 Like
But it does. Inherently when anyone is rewarded at the cost of someone else for something they haven’t done, it’s going to have blame associated with it. Not only would this further the divide between racial groups, but it would be such a slippery slope to start rewarding people America has oppressed (cough NA’s cough).
That our justice system is one that assigns blame to the guilty party. Reparations this far from the focal point is so beyond the scope of punishing the guilty party.
Whether or not you want to believe that’s how it works in the case of reparations, millions upon millions of Americans will see it that way. Not only would it instantly validate the inherent racism in people that exist, it would lead to the same “Hyper Anti-PC” mindset where racism becomes less a social issue and more a “political” issue.
And here is a hypothetical to illustrate my point:
Your great-great grandfather took land that belonged to us and got we wealthy farming it, let’s say. My great-great grandfather struggled with crap land, but had three kids. Each kid led seperate lives - Kid 1 went to war, came back, became an upstanding citizen and a small town banker. Kid 2 married young, had six kids, was a stay at home, but the husband was a successful farmer. Kid 3 was a wastrel and a drunk, and had two kids he was an awful father to.
Kid 1 had kids, and his kids had kids, and those kids had kids. Same with Kid 2 and 3. Each set of kids had different lives, different outcomes. Some didn’t amass much wealth, sometimes because bad luck, sometimes out of life choices. A few decided to become professionals - one became a judge, one became a nurse. The rest had middling existences, some declared bankruptcy. Some struggled with drug addiction, some married into wealth.
I’m kid number 27 of my great-great grandfather’s progeny. I’m a middle manager at the local department store, but I have a cousin who is a lawyer, and another cousin who is in jail for petty crimes.
Did the stolen land truly cause my circumstances? Did it cause the fate of my cousins? Generations of good and bad parenting, dumb luck, bad luck, bumper harvests and failed crops, wars, the dislocations of industrialism, natural talent, natural weaknesses, sicknesses, etc. - all those intevening factors that impact people’s lives are secondary to the fact that my great-great grandfather had land taken from him and struggled as a result?
That’s too much of a leap, and whatever the actual causation, the answer would surely be different for myself and each of my cousins.
3 Likes
Then someone owes my wife and son reparations too.
But here’s the deal- We’re willing to let it go if the other side is too.
Why are Native Americans considered oppressed?
They owned slaves themselves
Holy shit you people have staying power for a debate. I want to write more in the thread but I became thoroughly exhausted on it. Is this what nearing 40 (38 this coming June) does to someone?
3 Likes
This is one thing that I was thinking about when I mentioned my belief that “keeping score” ala reparations or ANYTHING ELSE like that will lead towards Mid East style divisions–where do you stop the score keeping? Where does it end? 50 years? 200 years? 1000 years to the Shiite heresy? 2000 years back to the Bible and Palestine? This is a primary reason that whole region is a mess. Nobody forgives, nobody moves on, nobody moves forward.
I do not believe that you can move forward while grumbling about the past. You look at the past and say “we won’t make these mistakes ever again”, analyze them, or you are doomed to repeat them ala the proverb about history. But you can’t grumble about it.
@EyeDentist, I read the article again as you requested (as I had already read it once long before when it came out). It is very well written, which is one thing I always appreciate about the Atlantic’s pieces regardless of slant. However, my opinion on the piece is about the same as it was the first time I read it and I honestly think thunderbolt has covered it as well as I could.
Regarding your question below:[quote=“EyeDentist, post:1364, topic:228119”]
would you acknowledge that a discussion concerning reparations might advance the ball vis a vis race relations?
[/quote]
My answer is that if we are talking about monetary reparations then no, I do not believe it would advance the ball at all for race relations and I think it would work towards regression for the reasons thunderbolt stated as well as the score keeping mentality I stated. You can see this plainly in all centuries long feuds still occurring today. In order to break the cycle, one must actually BREAK the cycle.
This was said much more eloquently than I could think to write. Very well said.
1 Like
Hahaha, genuinely laughed aloud. Be careful Brick, this is the epitome of what this sub-forum is all about! Get out while you’re still sane ;).
On a more serious note, I think a lot of us actually enjoy this back-and-forth (in most cases, anyway) because it helps us test out ideas–and some might not have people they can do this with in the local scene.
1 Like
Hey ED
An achievement gap between blacks and the rest is occurring in Canada as well. They also get suspended more just like in the US.
For clarification
Academic stream courses = trek to university
Applied stream courses = trade or no post secondary
From what I know about resentment, which is a very popular topic in my circles- Is that you become a slave to it. It drives you. It dictates your terms of relationships with others.
@EyeDentist - having read the article and drawn a near perfect analogy, plus having native American family, I’ll ask once again- Where are my reparations?
I checked all of the boxes. If there is legitimacy to the African American claim, then surely there is legitimacy to mine.
1 Like
- As it is my hypothetical, I am free to assume such things if I choose.
- Surely you don’t mean to suggest that slavery and Jim Crow haven’t had a massive effect on the socioeconomic status of AAs.
- You are missing the point of the hypothetical. Strike the clause “and as a result, my family prospered while yours struggled” so that we can get past this.
If that were true, class-action lawsuits would not be possible.
Agreed. That is why I will re-emphasize that reparations are not about punishment.
If I know I’m benefiting from ill-gotten gains that rightfully belong to you, but refuse to even discuss righting the wrong, then yes, I am culpable (morally if not legally).
Now I’m the one not following. “Already identified race-related problems”? So, you are acknowledging that the white-black wealth gap derives primarily from slavery, Jim Crow and other forms of institutional racism? Because that is the ‘problem’ reparations are intended to address.
Indeed. But this fact is irrelevant, as ‘making people discriminate less’ would not be the objective of reparations.
Not necessarily. For example, I didn’t feel blame when Reagan used my tax monies as reparations to Japanese internment victims.
The reparations process would not involve the justice system.
Assume for a moment that you felt reparations was a possibility worth considering. Would you still think the fact many white people would see it “that way” was a reason not to go through with it? Would that not amount to appeasement? And wouldn’t it constitute a recapitulation of AA victimization at the hands of white folk?
You mention interminable ME conflicts as an example of what we want to avoid. But to my knowledge, nothing like reparations has been employed in an attempt to end them. The point being, reparations just might–might–be the thing that ‘breaks the cycle.’
“American Indians have received three types of reparations: (1) cash payments, through the operation of the Indian Claims Commission and the U.S. Court of Claims; (2) land, through an occasional action of Congress to return control over land to particular tribes; and (3) tribal recognition, by either Congress or the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The first of these has been the least satisfactory, measured by long-term impact on Indian communities. The second was more satisfactory, but has been experienced by very few tribes. The third, which is in process now, has had the best results.”
http://www.prrac.org/full_text.php?%20text_id=649&item_id=6623&newsletter_id=17
While I love a good anecdote, I think we both know the masses would not feel this way. Especially with how far from the focal point we are compared to Reagan - Japanese.
Then it becomes a system that instills blame upon a party without involving the justice system.
In a world where I believe it was worth considering it would have to have to some pretty hefty positives to outweigh those negatives.
Please define AA and white folk for me 
1 Like
It would involve Congress. And despite your insistence to the contrary, blame would not be an issue under consideration.
It’s very technical. It has to do with 1) genetics, 2) Chicago, 3) AmRen, 4) Rachel Dolezal, and 5) not culture. (BTW, if you’re from one of those shitty, non-high-IQ societies, I’m afraid you won’t be able to understand it. Which is not to say your shitty society is inferior.)
3 Likes
Mmm. Ok, not bad. But what about my Scots and Irish grand parents? They were stuck in coal camps working for fake money that could only be used at the company store, which inevitably resulted in debt to the company?
And the millions of others and their offspring that were subject to the same treatment?
I mean, the guy in the article said he felt stupid and ashamed for signing on to a contract purchase of his home. How dumb and ashamed should my ancestors feel? They paid for passage on the boat to get here.
1 Like
What about the descendant of a slave owner who raped his female slave? Should the descendant pay reparations, or should he receive them?
How do we make the descendants of the Africans that enslaved other Africans and then sold them to Europeans pay their debts?
Who should pay more in reparations: The descendants of slave owners in America, or the descendants of those whose fault it is that those slaves ended up in America?
If we can answer the above questions, I assume the point of reparations will be to make the victims “whole” again. Should we look at the quality of life of modern black Americans vs. the quality of life of the descendants of their ancestors’ cousins(I don’t know the exact relations of modern black Americans to modern Africans; I’m sorry)? Should the quality of life of modern Africans be forced upon modern black Americans? How loving thou art, Social Justice Warriors.
How can we truly repay modern black Americans for slavery without forcing modern white Americans INTO slavery? That seems the only answer.
Be an abolitionist.
2 Likes
Some things you just have to find out for yourself- http://www.aa.org/
Yes. Yes, indeed. And that’s the problem. Resentment stops you from moving. It doesn’t erase the wrongs, it doesn’t do anything except keep a person focused on the past instead of on the future.
1 Like