Biology of Race

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1354

Thank you for taking the time to read it. (Sincere appreciation–no snark intended. Because while IMO very absorbing and well-written, that piece is hella long.)

As the author states, whether or not reparations happen, a debate regarding the possibility of reparations would be a good thing in and of itself.

Maybe. But again, the point is to make the case (for reparations) as a way of helping more Americans understand the depth and extent of the effects of slavery and Jim Crow.

I honestly don’t have a well-thought-out answer to this very important question. Hearing it debated would be a rich source of education for me.

Respectfully, please consider reading the article. Here’s a snippet:

"But while the people advocating reparations have changed over time, the response from the country has remained virtually the same. “They have been taught to labor,” the Chicago Tribune editorialized in 1891. “They have been taught Christian civilization, and to speak the noble English language instead of some African gibberish. The account is square with the ex‑slaves.”

Not exactly. Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, “Never again.” But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us." [emphasis mine]
[…]
“One cannot escape the question by hand-waving at the past, disavowing the acts of one’s ancestors, nor by citing a recent date of ancestral immigration. The last slaveholder has been dead for a very long time. The last soldier to endure Valley Forge has been dead much longer. To proudly claim the veteran and disown the slaveholder is patriotism à la carte. A nation outlives its generations. We were not there when Washington crossed the Delaware, but Emanuel Gottlieb Leutze’s rendering has meaning to us. We were not there when Woodrow Wilson took us into World War I, but we are still paying out the pensions. If Thomas Jefferson’s genius matters, then so does his taking of Sally Hemings’s body. If George Washington crossing the Delaware matters, so must his ruthless pursuit of the runagate Oney Judge.” [emphasis mine]
[…]
There has always been another way. “It is in vain to alledge, that our ancestors brought them hither, and not we,” Yale President Timothy Dwight said in 1810. “We inherit our ample patrimony with all its incumbrances; and are bound to pay the debts of our ancestors. This debt, particularly, we are bound to discharge: and, when the righteous Judge of the Universe comes to reckon with his servants, he will rigidly exact the payment at our hands. To give them liberty, and stop here, is to entail upon them a curse.” [ditto]

A legitimate point for debate.

1355

Unfortunately for you and Coates, analogies aren’t arguments. The only thing close to an argument is below:

[quote]
We inherit our ample patrimony with all its incumbrances; and are bound to pay the debts of our ancestors [/quote]

A few things:

  1. Only 5% of whites owned slaves. Most whites hated slavery because they were forced to pay into the support of the slavery infrastructure through their taxes

  2. There has been millions upon millions of people added to America since 1965 alone. From a practical standpoint it would be impossible to properly connect the ancestors of slaves to ancestors of owners. You would unfairly punish many with reparation taxes.

  3. Billions have already been transferred to African Americans in the form of welfare, affirmative action, funding to African American institutions (schools, museums you name it). Currently African Americans are 30 times richer than Africans in Africa. They live wildly better than they would have in Africa. No this does not make slavery a good thing just adding perspective to the state of African Americans and what they’re “owed”.

  4. There is no real evidence to support the idea reparations would equalize their SES with whites. They’ve been getting welfare for decades and there are still huge gaps.

  5. Is this about washing away your (whites) sins or about actually improving the lives of African Americans?

  6. I would argue reparations only work to stoke the flames of racial animosity.

1 Like
1356

I like you ED. I think you bring a unique voice and knowledge base to PWI that has been missing for some time. That said, no one is going to convince me that a white 31-year-old male who was born into a working-class family and left home at 18 with nothing, should pay people he doesn’t know reparations for events that took place at least two generations ago.

I acknowledge, as I did earlier in the thread, that, while life has drastically improved for minorities even since just the late 60s, there are still issues to be worked out. I; however, also acknowledge that a minority has achieved every single level of success possible in the United States, that numerous laws and policies have been put into place to level the playing field for minorities, that entire institutions exist solely to benefit minorities, that some of my tax dollars are already redistributed to many black American’s (not because they’re black per se, but because they’re______(insert a handful of reasons like working poor)), and so on and so forth.

Should the Irish that descended from immigrants living in American ghettos get reparations? Should the Japanese and Italians forcibly relocated off the west coast during WWII? Should American’s that descended from Civil War veterans that died on the battlefield to free the slave get reparations?

At some point, systemic racism stops being a legitimate reason a minority group is unsuccessful generally and instead becomes an excuse for said groups behavior. As far as I’m concerned, we are much closer to the latter than the former.

3 Likes
1357

I would argue that every white person in America–no matter whether their forebears owned slaves, nor when they or their forebears arrived–has benefited from slavery or its aftermath. Likewise, every black American–again, no matter when their forebears arrived–has suffered because of it. But that’s just my opinion. These issues would be hashed out during the reparation debate.

As I previously acknowledged, the role of ‘War on Poverty’ spending vis a vis reparations would need to be hashed out.

This is an offensive nonstarter of a topic (with the exception of the hilarious take on it Richard Pryor had in his bit entitled ‘Thank God for slavery.’)

Considering that there have been no large-scale reparations, I am at a loss as to how it is you think you can make such an empirical claim.

“Reparations—by which I mean the full acceptance of our collective biography and its consequences—is the price we must pay to see ourselves squarely. The recovering alcoholic may well have to live with his illness for the rest of his life. But at least he is not living a drunken lie. Reparations beckons us to reject the intoxication of hubris and see America as it is—the work of fallible humans.
[…]
What I’m talking about is more than recompense for past injustices—more than a handout, a payoff, hush money, or a reluctant bribe. What I’m talking about is a national reckoning that would lead to spiritual renewal. Reparations would mean the end of scarfing hot dogs on the Fourth of July while denying the facts of our heritage. Reparations would mean the end of yelling “patriotism” while waving a Confederate flag. Reparations would mean a revolution of the American consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history.”

“Won’t reparations divide us? Not any more than we are already divided. The wealth gap merely puts a number on something we feel but cannot say—that American prosperity was ill-gotten and selective in its distribution. What is needed is an airing of family secrets, a settling with old ghosts. What is needed is a healing of the American psyche and the banishment of white guilt.”

I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m simply asking you to read a very well-researched and written article on the subject of race relations in America. I harbor no illusions that you (or anyone else) will have their minds changed by the article. But as I think @Basement_Gainz would concur, anyone who reads it will find that it gave them a lot to think about.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence of lingering disadvantage among people of Irish ancestry.

You mean, a second round?

In the face of incontrovertible evidence of severe, ongoing disadvantage occurring right now, I would say this argument–‘someday things will work themselves out’–rings very hollow.

1358

I will read it at some point.

“The legislation offered a formal apology and paid out $20,000 in compensation to each surviving victim.”

I’m totally onboard with paying out reparations to all surviving former slaves.

The last President was mixed race, come on.

Edit: “someday things will work themselves out” isn’t even what I wrote anyway.

1359

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

That’s a fair starting position in a reparations debate.

"The lives of black Americans are better than they were half a century ago. The humiliation of Whites Only signs are gone. Rates of black poverty have decreased. Black teen-pregnancy rates are at record lows—and the gap between black and white teen-pregnancy rates has shrunk significantly. But such progress rests on a shaky foundation, and fault lines are everywhere. The income gap between black and white households is roughly the same today as it was in 1970. Patrick Sharkey, a sociologist at New York University, studied children born from 1955 through 1970 and found that 4 percent of whites and 62 percent of blacks across America had been raised in poor neighborhoods. A generation later, the same study showed, virtually nothing had changed. And whereas whites born into affluent neighborhoods tended to remain in affluent neighborhoods, blacks tended to fall out of them.

This is not surprising. Black families, regardless of income, are significantly less wealthy than white families. The Pew Research Center estimates that white households are worth roughly 20 times as much as black households, and that whereas only 15 percent of whites have zero or negative wealth, more than a third of blacks do. Effectively, the black family in America is working without a safety net. When financial calamity strikes—a medical emergency, divorce, job loss—the fall is precipitous." [emphasis mine]

1360

I’d like to see how PEW came up with that figure, how they define “worth”, and how they accounted for single family households (of which I’m certain black family dominate statistically). I’d also like to see if they controlled for incarceration rates.

1361

[quote=“EyeDentist, post:1357, topic:228119, full:true”]

I would argue that every white person in America–no matter whether their forebears owned slaves, nor when they or their forebears arrived–has benefited from slavery or its aftermath. Likewise, every black American–again, no matter when their forebears arrived–has suffered because of it. But that’s just my opinion. These issues would be hashed out during the reparation debate.[/quote]

Then you are extremely ignorant of history and it’s really not a matter of debate. There are plenty of African immigrants in America and plenty of Africans have no history of slavery and also have ancestors that engaged in slavery.

America is one of, if not the best country for minorities.

[quote=“EyeDentist, post:1357, topic:228119, full:true”]

As I previously acknowledged, the role of ‘War on Poverty’ spending vis a vis reparations would need to be hashed out.[/quote]

We should also add into the arithmetic the tremendous stress African Americans put on the rest of America.

NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW

If you subtract African American crime especially violent crime from statistics, crime plummets. Not only that but factor in the amount of policing, prison costs etc. This not only has financial implications but also quality of life as well.

[quote=“EyeDentist, post:1357, topic:228119, full:true”]

Considering that there have been no large-scale reparations, I am at a loss as to how it is you think you can make such an empirical claim.[/quote]

That’s pretty much what I’ve been discussing with respect to IQ in this thread. Roughly the top 30% of AA in IQ are doing fine without reparations and the bottom third will just squander it. People with low IQs have low impulse control, poor future time orientation and have trouble delaying gratification.

If this is the way African Americans feel in 2017, then to me it’s adequate evidence that blacks and whites cannot coexist in the same nation, a position Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson (and others) held.

No amount of recompense can salve the history of slavery except for separate nations.

1362

All I can say is, I am highly amused by this.

1363

This is where I come down as well.

@EyeDentist, I’ve read the Coates piece before, and you and I will agree more on race issues than we disagree. But I think there is something perverse in punishing people for actions they did not take and are not responsible for, and what benefit is there in insisting on assigning liability against people who (1) have taken great steps to toward progress in moving away from slavery, segregation, and prejudice and (2) that we want to continue to take steps? Modern Americans have come a tremendous way on racial tolerance over, literally, centuries, and we want to take a moment, scold them, and hold them financially liable for racial crimes they didn’t commit and find aborrhent?

One other thing I think is worth mentioning - the people of the early United States inherited the institution of slavery, they didn’t invent it. If we’re operating in the space of liability, which is what reparations are all about, are modern white people entitled to ask for contribution from European countries that are responsible for bringing slavery to the New World? Doesn’t England, Spain, and France (among others) need to share in these reparations? If liability can and should extend to choices made hundreds of years ago, then all the rules should extend back that far, in the name of fairness.

I simply don’t think reparations are not any kind of actual solution to our remaining race-relation problems.

4 Likes
1364

Good contribution to the debate.

The part I feel most compelled to respond to is the suggestion that reparations are about ‘punishing’ present-day white folk for what the white folk of generations past did. That is not how I would characterize the purpose of reparations. Rather, reparations are about making whole people who have a current tangible financial deficit, the origins of which can be traced to the ‘unfair business practices’ (so to speak) of slavery and Jim Crow. That is, slavery and Jim Crow systematically transferred wealth from black folk to white folk, and the financial results of this wealth transfer remain very much with us. The purpose of reparations would be to ‘set the ledger straight’; punitive damages (ie, punishment) would not enter into it.

OK, but would you acknowledge that a discussion concerning reparations might advance the ball vis a vis race relations?

1365

That is the reality, though. [quote=“EyeDentist, post:1364, topic:228119”]
OK, but would you acknowledge that a discussion concerning reparations might advance the ball vis a vis race relations?
[/quote]

Seems very unlikely to me. In fact, I’d wage the opposite would occur. Has BLM and discussion on alleged police abuse advanced race relations? How about the “discussion” over the confederate flag flying over SC?

1366

they’ll just more keep asking for more, why would they not?

1367

ED has one of the most extreme cases of white guilt complex I have ever come across.

1368

I would answer unequivocally yes. Advancing race relations unavoidably involves addressing issues that produce very strong emotional reactions. In short, it’s going to be a bumpy ride. We shouldn’t (mis)interpret occasional periods of increased racial antipathy as evidence that relations are regressing.

1369

I understand what you’re saying, but that is a punishment, as any kind of assignment of liability. It is being made whole by fact of wrongdoing. To take from someone because they’re responsible for a wrong is to punish them, no different than a fine or money judgment.

If you can identify wealth that was taken by a perpetrator and the direct victim who had the wealth taken, sure. But to be just, any liability must be predicated on causation, and is too subject too individualized circumstances. What if a black person had a decent inheritance from his parents, but squandered it through his own actions? Does he deserve $20,000?

That’s the practical problem this issue faces, in addition to the others. Coates assembles sociological data, but just simply assumes causation without adequate accounting for hundreds, if not thousands, of other intervening actions. And no one should be punished in the absence of real causation.[quote=“EyeDentist, post:1364, topic:228119”]
OK, but would you acknowledge that a discussion concerning reparations might advance the ball vis a vis race relations?
[/quote]

No, I actually think it would be a setback for race relations. Reparations assumes and insinuates culpability for wrongdoing for really, really awful sins on the part of a great many people coming to the table who didn’t do them to productively discuss race relations in an effort to improve them. Starting from a place of “shouldn’t we get reparations?” would poison the well of necessary goodwill to have that discussion.

*edit: added back italics, unintentionally deleted before hitting send.

1 Like
1370

Again, I disagree with your characterization. If your bank contacted you to say that, due to an error, money belonging to someone else had been deposited in your account, would you consider yourself as being ‘punished’ if the bank subsequently corrected the error and transferred the funds back to their rightful owner?

Ah, you just answered my question. But you go on to raise a fair point:

One goal of a reparations debate would be to work through issues such as this.

I would say the notion of “real causation” is very slippery.

Let’s say my great-great-grandfather stole a significant amount of land from your great-great-grandfather, and as a result, my family prospered while yours struggled. Subsequent generations of our families failed to come to terms with the original crime. You ask me to sit down and discuss the issue, the goal being to make things right. It seems to me the only ‘culpability’ that might fairly be assigned to me would not be related to the original crime; rather, it would stem from a refusal on my part to discuss the issue with you. That is the only ‘crime’ for which I would be culpable.

OK then, how would you propose we (the national ‘we’) work through the issues of slavery, Jim Crow and the present-day injustices that stem from them?

1371

Then I deserve reparations too. My grand father worked for a coal company that paid him in scrip, owned his house, and had the ability to arbitrarily remove all he had, thereby making the analogy to many of the african americans that, although not technically owned, were completely controlled by others fit to a T.

As he used to say- “It don’t matter who you are, you’re all black down there.”.

These types of conditions would preclude a huge swath of people and their descendants who, although white, suffered very similar indignities from being liable for reparations, wouldn’t it?

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1372

The main issue with the reparations debate is for there to be one people have to be open to an amount > 0 (monetary or otherwise). To do so is to appoint blame (whether or not you intend it to) to those with fortune and reward (whether or not you see it that way) those without. To appoint blame to a group of people based on the actions of ancestors is the complete opposite of major pillars this country stands on.

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1373

Brief periods of racial antipathy. Like lynchings in the 1960’s? Or BLM inspired police shootings now? Not exactly constructive.