[quote]
Anyways EmilyQ, my point is I agree with you. I don’t believe all women are lazy incompetent bitches who want to destroy the livelihood of every man they come into contact with.[/quote]
Obviously they don’t want to destroy the livelihood of every man they come into contact with.
Just the livelihood of one man at a time.
It’s like a secret.
Obviously, she won’t tell it to every one.
Just to one person at a time.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
There is this idea that we won’t achieve equality until there’s parity between men and women. Like this is the goal.
Equal numbers of females in math-heavy technical fields like engineering.
Equal numbers of women at the top of the ladder. Upper management, CEOs.
Women making the same money as men.
UCLA’s Anderson School of Business just got called on the carpet for not having enough women in tenure track positions. No endowed chairs are held by women. Gender Bias Alleged at UCLA's Anderson Business School - WSJ They neglect to recognize that many women would choose more flexible part-time positions, and maybe that’s what makes them fulfilled.
There are biological and reproductive realities that mean we will NEVER reach parity. In fact, I don’t want to live in a world that would look like that. More women are drawn to people oriented/ helping professions. Even women who have the math chops to be engineers. More women want to work part-time or step back from the workplace to raise young children. More women will trade more money for flexibility, less stress and responsibility, and fewer hours because they see family as a priority. I could go on. I’m not being retrograde in terms of encouraging women, and paying them what they are worth, or teaching them how to negotiate and compete. Just saying, do we really want a world where HALF of the CEOs are women. Half of the tenured professors are women? That’s a world where nobody’s having kids, or nobody’s raising kids. Everybody working full-time and as stressed out as possible. I don’t think most women, or men really want that. [/quote]
I’m sure you’ve heard the quote about the person that shouts the loudest gets their way (or something like that). Well in feminism or just about any topic, the most extreme are shouting the loudest and somehow get their way, regardless of how fucked up a position that may be.
In this case, they’re shouting that men are trying to hold women down by not having everything be 50/50, and you’re right that position makes no sense, and you don’t see perfect splits in any field.
Don’t know where I’m going with this, but I thought you brought up some good points.
I suppose something that ought to happen is for women that hold the positions that you brought up, and don’t see raising a family as some sort of primitive lesser role for a woman to play should be more vocal that there actually isn’t anything wrong with that position… [/quote]
For Sure.
The activists will always have their way when the majority of people are either apathetic about a topic because it “isn’t their big thing”, or the common sense regular people are too busy working and raising their families and just trying to get their kids to soccer to want to get involved in all the issues.
And we have certain issues in our society that are pretty much verboten to speak out against.
For example, imagine that the University where you teach psychology just put this out to all the employees. If you read it and say anything negative then you are either a bigot, racist, or misogynist. You can’t possibly value a new psychologist for his/her academic merits without requiring them to write a “diversity statement” because we must all be committed to “inclusive excellence.” I am not making this up. Believe me, speaking out against this is career suicide. So you keep your mouth shut and go along. You suspect a lot of other people are doing the same. And so you become “part of the problem”, and the PC activists continue to write their policies.
Advertisements for all open positions will include the following statement:
â??A separate statement that addresses past and/or potential contributions to
diversity, equity and inclusion should also be included in the application
materialsâ??
The on-line Recruit application system will include a field for applicants to upload their diversity statements.
A diversity statement evaluation grid will be provided to all search
committees and will also be available on the website.
Equity Advisors will discuss the use of the diversity statement evaluation
grid in their mandatory presentation to search committees.
Departments will discuss the strength of the diversity statement as part of
the rationale for the proposed list of short-listed candidates to be invited to
campus.
Deans will consider the diversity statements of finalists and summarize the
diversity activities of new hires as part of their annual reports.
^Cliff’s Notes for the people with ADHD who don’t like to read huge walls of text.
Emily is the problem.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
Gabby I’m curious about the mentality I think I’m seeing here. If you feel affected by a problem, how is it anyone else’s responsibility other than yours to deal with it? Why would Emily or any other woman have some kind of responsibility to “be part of the solution” or campaign against other women with harmful ideas?
If it’s our fucking problem, it’s our fucking job to deal with it. It seems ridiculous to me to expect anyone not directly affected by a problem to help deal with it on your behalf.[/quote]
It’s her movement.
If you self-identified as a member of a political party that advocated segregation, but stated privately “I’m not into the segregation stuff, I joined the party for other issues, segregation ain’t me” I would ask what you are doing to push your party away from that platform. If you answered that you were quietly sitting in the background I would laugh.
[/quote]
Radical feminism is not my movement. When I identify as a feminist I always (ALWAYS) offer an explanation as to its meaning to me. But at this point in time I’m not sure what the alternative would be. I’m not a religious fundamentalist, so what identification should I hold? I’m neither a man-hater nor dependency-seeker. What’s the in-between; the identification of a regular, non-radical, fairly traditional, feminine in personality and dress but not sexualized, working woman?
And why do you insist on identity politics? Haven’t they done enough harm? [/quote]
When did I insist on identity politics? You’ve self identified as a feminist before, that I remember, and it’s obvious that you’re not a Radical. Beyond that this is too much arguing on the internet for me.
[/quote]
Yes, I suppose I have, because when posting somewhere like TN, where there is often justified anger, I want to make sure I don’t misrepresent myself or mislead anyone, and I think it’s important to note that feminism is not, in my view, about revenge against men or unfair advantage.
I don’t know what trigger point I hit with you, but the thing I claimed in this thread is that I do the exact thing the video highlights, which is to expect heroics from men as well as pay parity for jobs. I cheerfully shouldered the label of “asshole” and thanked men generally for being willing to deal with scary things on my behalf.
As for your insistence that I should “push my party away from it” I would ask:
How many hours should decent Christians spend decrying bigotry and intolerance, and where? Jerusalem? Rome? Or is it enough to arrange pulpit time on a Sunday to note that they repudiate the killing of abortionists and harassment of gays? Obviously stating clearly any time it comes up that “I find that a gross misrepresentation of the Church’s teachings” is inadequate.
A local man here was sentenced to 18 months for possessing and broadcasting “thousands of pornographic images and videos of children.” Do you owe something in this matter as a man who benefits from a male-dominated and primarily male-led criminal justice system? Because I’m outraged and sickened by this situation and would like a solution to this problem posthaste.
In winding down let me just say that it’s terribly ironic that you seem angry because I’ve told you that I’m not a zealot nor a fighter and that I exert influence as best I can, but gently. You want me to be an angry and aggressive woman? Strident and combative? And you’re mad that I’m not? Seriously?
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
^Cliff’s Notes for the people with ADHD who don’t like to read huge walls of text.
Emily is the problem. [/quote]
I’m an asshole! I said so in the OP!
.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Em:
Please pick from the following list so we know what broad brush to paint you with:
Liberal feminism:
primarily focuses on women?s ability to show and maintain their equality through their own actions and choices.
argues that our society holds the false belief that women are, by nature, less intellectually and physically capable than men, it tends to discriminate against women in the academy, the forum, and the marketplace. Liberal feminists believe that ?female subordination is rooted in a set of customary and legal constraints that blocks women?s entrance to and success in the so-called public world? and they work hard to emphasize the equality of men and women through political and legal reform
Terms:
procedural accounts of personal autonomy: in order for women to enjoy personal autonomy, they should have a broad range of autonomy-enabling conditions, such as: being free of violence and the threat of violence, being free of the limits set by paternalistic and moralistic laws, having access to options
Ecofeminism
connects the exploitation and domination of women with that of the environment; ecofeminism argues that there is a connection between women and nature that comes from their shared history of oppression by a patriarchal Western society.
Terms:
deep ecology: the philosophy that environmental problems stem from a human-centered ideological position. They can only be solved when the needs of nature are put first or on the same level as human needs.
biocentrism and ecocentrism: The act of putting nature's needs first or alongside human needs. Recommended authors: Françoise d'Eaubonne, Vandana Shiva, Maria Mies
Transfeminism
a category of feminism, most often known for the application of transgender discourses to feminist discourses, and of feminist beliefs to transgender discourse".
often criticizes the ideas of a universal sisterhood - instead, transfeminists view gender as a multifaceted set of diverse intrinsic and social qualities. For example, there are trans/cis men/women who express themselves in an unusually feminine or masculine way. Because this strongly affects how the person experiences their gender, and also their standing within patriarchy, transfeminists would argue that masculine/feminine expression is an important concept worthy of feminist inquiry, to be compared and contrasted with both birth sex and gender identity.
Anarcha-feminism
views patriarchy as a manifestation of involuntary coercive hierarchy that should be replaced by decentralized voluntary association. Anarcha-feminists believe that the struggle against patriarchy is an essential part of class struggle, and the anarchist struggle against the state. In essence, the philosophy sees anarchist struggle as a necessary component of feminist struggle and vice-versa.
an important aspect is its opposition to traditional concepts of family, education and gender roles; the institution of marriage is one of the most widely opposed.
Terms:
free love: a social movement that rejects marriage, which is seen as a form of social bondage. Its initial goal was to separate the state from sexual matters such as marriage, birth control, and adultery. It claimed that such issues were the concern of the people involved, and no one else
Black feminism
argues that sexism, class oppression, and racism are inextricably bound together. The way these relate to each other is called intersectionality. Forms of feminism that strive to overcome sexism and class oppression but ignore race can discriminate against many people, including women, through racial bias. Black feminist theory has argued that black women are positioned with in structures of power in fundamentally different ways than white women. Black feminist organizations emerged during the 1970s and face many difficulties from both the white feminist and black nationalist political organizations they were confronting. These women fought against suppression from the larger movements in which many of its members came from.
Terms:
intersectionality: examining how various biological, social and cultural categories such as gender, race, class, ability, sexual orientation, and other axes of identity interact on multiple and often simultaneous levels, contributing to systematic social inequality. Intersectionality holds that the classical conceptualizations of oppression within society, such as racism, sexism, homophobia, and religion-based bigotry, do not act independently of one another; instead, these forms of oppression interrelate, creating a system of oppression that reflects the "intersection" of multiple forms of discrimination.
matrix of domination: a sociological paradigm that explains issues of oppression that deal with race, class, and gender, which, though recognized as different social classifications, are all interconnected. As an example: many argue that Colin Powell?s success (as one Black man out of millions) is proof that discrimination based on race has been, or is close to being, eradicated in the United States ? however, proponents of the theory of the matrix of domination would argue that this overlooks issues of social class, gender, and age, Powell being an upper class, middle-aged/elderly male.
Postcolonial feminism
through analysis of entrenched power structures in formerly colonized nations, postcolonial feminism explains how economic and political institutions and social practices in those nations often oppress and marginalize women. In addition, it demonstrates how women around the globe struggle for equality and independence for themselves, their families, and their nations.
often referred to as Third World feminism centers around the idea that racism, colonialism, and the long lasting effects (economic, political, and cultural) of colonialism in the postcolonial setting, are inextricably bound up with the unique gendered realities of non-white,and non-Western women. Postcolonial feminists criticize Western feminists because they have a history of universalizing women's issues, and their discourses are often misunderstood to represent women globally.
thus, one of the central ideas in postcolonial feminism is that by using the term 'woman' as a universal group, they are then only defined by their gender and not by social classes and ethnic identities. Also, it is believed by postcolonial feminists that mainstream Western feminists ignored the voices of non-white, non-western women for many years, thus creating resentment from feminists in developing nations.
postcolonial feminists have had strong ties with black feminists because colonialism usually contains themes of racism. Both groups have struggled for recognition, not only by men in their own culture, but also by Western feminists.
Multiracial feminism
refers to the activist and scholarly work conducted by women of color and anti-racist white allies to promote race, class, and gender equality. In comparison to the highly documented second-wave white, middle-class feminism, which centered on abolishing patriarchy and privileged patriarchy as an oppression over all others, women of color feminism resists separating oppression and insists on recognizing the intersectionality of race, class, and gender oppression.
Radical feminism
focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy oppresses women. Radical feminism aims to challenge and overthrow patriarchy by opposing standard gender roles and oppression of women and calls for a radical reordering of society.
locates the root cause of women's oppression in patriarchal gender relations, as opposed to legal systems (as in liberal feminism) or class conflict (as in socialist feminism and Marxist feminism)
Socialist feminism
argues that liberation can only be achieved by working to end both the economic and cultural sources of women's oppression.
broadens Marxist feminism's argument for the role of capitalism in the oppression of women (and rejects the idea that class and class struggle are the only defining elements of history and economic development) and radical feminism's theory of the role of gender and the patriarchy.
reject radical feminism?s main claim that patriarchy the only or primary source of oppression of women and assert that women are unable to be free due to their financial dependence on males in society. Women are subjects to the male rulers in capitalism due to an uneven balance in wealth. They see economic dependence as the driving force of women?s subjugation to men. Further, socialist feminists see women?s liberation as a necessary part of larger quest for social, economic and political justice.
Postmodern feminism
incorporates postmodern and post-structuralist theory, and thus sees itself as moving beyond the modernist polarities of liberal feminism and radical feminism
has been described as the ultimate acceptor of diversity: ?multiple truths, multiple roles, multiple realities are part of its focus. There is a rejectance of an essential nature of women, of one-way to be a woman. Poststructural feminism offers a useful philosophy for diversity in feminism because of its acceptance of multiple truths and rejection of essentialism?
Judith Butler on Gender performativity:
sees gender as an act that has been rehearsed, much like a script, and we, as the actors make the script a reality through repetition, thus coming to perform in the mode of belief.
the distinction between the personal and the political or between private and public is itself a fiction designed to support an oppressive status quo: our most personal acts are, in fact, continually being scripted by hegemonic social conventions and ideologies?
sees gender not as an expression of what one is, rather as something that one does. Furthermore, she sees it not as a social imposition on a gender neutral body, but rather as a mode of "self-making" through which subjects become socially intelligible. According to Butler?s theory, homosexuality and heterosexuality are not fixed categories. A person is merely in a condition of ?doing straightness? or ?doing queerness?
Recommended authors: Mary Joe Frug, Judith Butler, Kate Bornstein
Further reading: Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity, A Postmodern Feminist Legal Manifesto
Marxist feminism
focuses on the social institutions of private property and capitalism to explain and criticize gender inequality and oppression.
posits that private property gives rise to economic inequality, dependence, political and domestic struggle between the sexes, and is the root of women's oppression in the current social context.
Chicana feminism
analyzes the historical, social, political, and economic roles of Mexican American, Chicana, and Hispanic women in the United States
Post-structural feminism
emphasizes "the contingent and discursive nature of all identities",[1] and in particular the social construction of gendered subjectivities
resists universalist or normalizing conceptions of women as a group or altogether dismiss the category ?woman?. They share with psychoanalytic feminists a skepticism about phallogocentric language and social structures, as well as the French feminist rejection of metanarrative explanations and prescriptive norms for gender and sexuality.
French feminism
is distinguished by an approach which is more philosophical and literary. Its writings tend to be effusive and metaphorical being less concerned with political doctrine and generally focused on theories of "the body". The term includes writers who are not French, but who have worked substantially in France and the French tradition.
Simone de Beauvoir?s analysis focuses on the social construction of Woman as the Other, this de Beauvoir identifies as fundamental to women's oppression. She argues that women have historically been considered deviant and abnormal, and contends that even Mary Wollstonecraft considered men to be the ideal toward which women should aspire. De Beauvoir argues that for feminism to move forward, this attitude must be set aside.
Transnational feminism
attentive to intersections among nationhood, race, gender, sexuality and economic exploitation on a world scale, in the context of emergent global capitalism.
inquires in to the social, political and economic conditions comprising imperialism; their connections to colonialism and nationalism; the role of gender, the state, race, class, and sexuality in the organization of resistance to hegemonies in the making and unmaking of nation and nation-state.
transnational feminist practice is attentive to feminism as both a liberatory formation and one with longstanding ties to colonialism, racism and imperialism. As such, it resists utopic ideas about "global sisterhood" while simultaneously working to lay the groundwork for more productive and equitable social relations among women across borders and cultural contexts.
Atheist Feminism
is a movement that advocates the Feminism within atheism. Atheist feminists also oppose religion as a main source of female oppression and inequality, believing that the majority of the religions are sexist and oppressive to women.
Feminist Theology
is a movement found in several religions, including Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, and New Thought, to reconsider the traditions, practices, scriptures, and theologies of those religions from a feminist perspective. Some of the goals of feminist theology include increasing the role of women among the clergy and religious authorities, reinterpreting male-dominated imagery and language about God, determining women's place in relation to career and motherhood, and studying images of women in the religion's sacred texts.
[/quote]
I find these descriptions painful, frankly. Can I not define myself?
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
^Cliff’s Notes for the people with ADHD who don’t like to read huge walls of text.
Emily is the problem. [/quote]
Ha! This thread started with a joke, continued with some blowing off of steam, which I took a lot of as being half serious. Then I threw a comment at Emily, that with the stuff about dirty hippies would come off as not very serious. But obviously it pissed her off. Oh well, I’m sure she won’t lose any sleep over it.
Speaking of being pissed off and maybe losing sleep, your post above is a good example of people getting shat upon. But does all this PC stuff really keep anybody up at night? In my experience, people mostly laugh about such nonsense and move on. There’s always been bullshit to put up with in careers and life and always will. I know some people probably have to see themselves get passed over for promotion because of PC/Diversity politics, and this is probably especially painful for the passed over when they obviously are more qualified. But is it any more painful than getting passed over for the boss’s idiot nephew?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
If it’s our fucking problem, it’s our fucking job to deal with it. It seems ridiculous to me to expect anyone not directly affected by a problem to help deal with it on your behalf.[/quote]
Yeah, thats a kind of limitation women just dont have.
As a man, you will never win in the court of public opinion, “women are wonderful” effect and whatnot, so he only resort you really have is to say “fuck it”.
Let it all burn to the ground, rebuild from scratch. [/quote]
Hockey’s response when I told him about the horrific cat noises and terrifying thumping sounds and that I’d jumped across the room and somehow onto a distant chair, wishing for him:
“Were you naked?”
You’ve got a tough row to hoe, orion! The men are going to prove as difficult to herd as the women have been.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
^Cliff’s Notes for the people with ADHD who don’t like to read huge walls of text.
Emily is the problem. [/quote]
Oh well, I’m sure she won’t lose any sleep over it.
[/quote]
I may! I don’t like conflict.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean. 
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[/quote]
It’s also Boondock Saints. You’re lucky that you’re not pregnant.
I’m lucky that I’m not pregnant.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[/quote]
Sexist? Me?
I wouldn’t dare.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[/quote]
It’s also Boondock Saints. You’re lucky that you’re not pregnant.
I’m lucky that I’m not pregnant.[/quote]
I think you should give the baby a gender-neutral name so it has every advantage.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[/quote]
It’s also Boondock Saints. You’re lucky that you’re not pregnant.
I’m lucky that I’m not pregnant.[/quote]
I think you should give the baby a gender-neutral name so it has every advantage.
[/quote]
I’ll do you one better and give it a species-neutral name. Wild dogs are a serious issue.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[/quote]
It’s also Boondock Saints. You’re lucky that you’re not pregnant.
I’m lucky that I’m not pregnant.[/quote]
I think you should give the baby a gender-neutral name so it has every advantage.
[/quote]
I’ll do you one better and give it a species-neutral name. Wild dogs are a serious issue.[/quote]
Do you campaign for or against them? I take them very seriously, too, and want to make sure you’re not a part of the problem and neutralizing all of my solutioning.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
.[/quote]
I’m gonna assume he’s saying “men” as in humanity there. Men and women included.
Nice try, baiting me with your sexist language, Jonty. Be careful. I can get mean.
[/quote]
He’s lucky my period isn’t due soon.
[/quote]
It’s also Boondock Saints. You’re lucky that you’re not pregnant.
I’m lucky that I’m not pregnant.[/quote]
I think you should give the baby a gender-neutral name so it has every advantage.
[/quote]
I’ll do you one better and give it a species-neutral name. Wild dogs are a serious issue.[/quote]
Do you campaign for or against them? I take them very seriously, too, and want to make sure you’re not a part of the problem and neutralizing all of my solutioning.
[/quote]
I lead a campaign of fists against their scourge, but they hear that Quincy is coming and label me before I get there, effectively disempowering me. If my name were Spot, however…
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I lead a campaign of fists against their scourge, but they hear that Quincy is coming and label me before I get there, effectively disempowering me. If my name were Spot, however…[/quote]
Is csulli aware of this campaign?
[quote]red04 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I lead a campaign of fists against their scourge, but they hear that Quincy is coming and label me before I get there, effectively disempowering me. If my name were Spot, however…[/quote]
Is csulli aware of this campaign?[/quote]
He’s my VP.