Real malnutrition
While not as dire as the caloric + micronutrient malnutrition faced by many around the world, isolated micronutrient malnutrition is āreal malnutrition.ā
Oh itās not that he would object, itās that he would love to take things out of context and I largely agree with BGās criticism of his nonsense (refer up to where we had a brief exchange).
But, to answer your question:
Actually, you answered part of it yourselfā[quote=āEyeDentist, post:100, topic:229191ā]
children who are obese who are malnourished because they are consuming the wrong types of foods ā foods that are calorie dense, but nutritionally poor
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So as part of a holistic look at a personāthis by definition means a calorie cannot be a calorie in the sense that they have identical effects on the body. 1 calorie of a nutritionally dense food will have a different effect on a personās metabolic status than 1 calorie of nutritionally vacant food will due specifically to the presence of co-factors and micronutrients present in the food. One category of food has a propensity to increase systemic inflammation, the other (generally) a propensity to decrease it for starters, but there are myriad other ways.
Below is a link to the full text of a clinical study looking specifically at protein consumption during a very reduced diet. I think this is a very well done studyāit was a single blind, randomized, parallel group trial and subjects were closely matched to age, weight, fat mass, etc. They were provided all meals and drinks, with daily weight monitoring along with food checklists and daily contact with each participant. Overall energy intake was matched and they ate identical solid meals; the only difference was their liquid shakes. The shakes were flavored identically and there was a blind taste test done to confirm identical taste before the study commenced. The diet was a 40% restriction from maintenance.
The high protein group ate twice the protein of the lower protein group and energy deficits were matched across the board, with similar ratios of macronutrients. What they found was that the high protein group gained significant lean mass and the control group did not. So they gained significantly more lean mass and lost significantly more fat mass than the control group. If a calorie was a calorie you would expect them to see the same proportionate body composition changes.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/103/3/738.long
Essentially my position is that micronutrient content and metabolic signalling effects of food types matter significantly, and because of this one cannot say a calorie is just a calorie. What that calorie contains besides the actual energy content matters greatly, and 1000 calories of soda does not contain anywhere near the same nutrients as 1000 calories of broccoli or 1200 calories of lean steak or salmon.
Overall calories matter greatly of course, and you can overeat on good food as well as shitty food. I donāt argue with the facts that you can do that, nor do I argue with the facts that Americans have shitty obesity rates due to our overconsumption of calories and sedentary lifestyles, as BG and I think usmc have both noted in this thread. Both of those are easily verified and much studied, and Zep doesnāt have a leg to stand on.
As noted above by BG it is easier to over consume calories of pizza than salmon and broccoli. Although that isnāt a caloric energy argument, it is an adherence based argument that calorie types matterā400 calories of white rice or soda is easier to eat and takes up less room via perception of fullness than 400 calories of lean steak, provided the person eating isnāt already starving, since we know that pre-existing hunger is on a delay timer as far as satiety goes. In general hyper-palatable foods are very easy to over consume on a volume basis.
Differing signaling effects on the gut-brain axis are also being reported with calorie type, and some others are being investigated. One of these, which I am sad to say I cannot find right now, investigated the effect of ketone feeding on subsequent hunger in mice, and found that an identical calorie level of ketone bodies vs other macro nutrient types in a first meal had a very significantly different effect on later overeating (it blunted binging as well as delaying the urge to eat in the first place) and also had differential signaling effects on leptin.
Of course, you are absolutely correct about food sources and their effects on the body. In no way was it my intent to imply that it doesnāt matter what one eats so long as caloric goals are met. But strictly speaking, by definition a calorie is independent of its sourceāitās merely a unit of energy. And note that my āa calorie is a calorieā comment was solely with regard to their effect on bodyweight. (Specifically, the question I was responding to was āSo 1,000 calories of soda has the same effect on bodyweight [emphasis mine] as 1,000 calories of broccoli?ā)
And the study you cite supports my claim in this regard. From the Results section: āThere was substantial weight loss in both groups from pre- to postintervention, but there were no differences in body weight loss between groups.ā
Oh, well yes of course! If no other measures of health or body composition are desired or taken, yeah I pretty much agree with you on that. I would never suggest something like that though, for obvious reasons. In my opinion focusing purely on body weight is terribly shortsighted and frankly counter productive in many ways for the general populace.
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Totally agree.
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Did a real discussion just happen in a Zep thread? Guys, lets get back to trolling and nonsense, that was way too civil.
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Iām here to help.
DID YOU KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE ON MARS?
I canāt believe the government is hiding this from us.
Thatās the REAL thing we ought to be worried about.
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If you take 2 groups and Group A eats the same, burns the same amount of calories as Group B are you saying that their diet doesnāt matter? So Group A can have pancakes and syrup for breakfast and soda and pizza for supper and Group B can have eggs and bacon for breakfast and wild salmon with vegetables and water for supper and there would be no difference in weight or health? And furthermore this goes on for 6 months.
Real manipulation. How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat - The New York Times Ahhh!(gasp) This couldnāt possibly be true. Profit motivated lies told by distinguished scientists and doctors. Which influenced the American diet for decades. Is it any wonder the U.S. pays about twice as much as everyone else for āhealthcareā and ranks among the lowest in industrialized countries for overall outcomes. Viva la āfree marketā āhealthcareā system. A total embarrassment.
If they ate the same calories with the same expenditure they would WEIGH the same. Fat and lbm would be different. In the absence of resistance training the difference would be negligible.
You have to realize when you talk about population that the vast majority of people do no exercise whatsoever.
Japan/Asia eat way more carbs than the US. France eats way more fat than the US. Both populations are healthier, leaner and live longer than the US. Moderation, we suck at it.
So which group would gain fat and loose lbm?
France eats way way more fat? And they are healthier, why?
What is it about the Japanese diet that allows them to eat more carbs and be leaner? Is it the type of carbs? Or combinations of macro nutrients with micro nutrients?
Its the entire thing. There is no single thing that you can say is the reason some woman in Honshu lived to be 114 years old, nor is there any one thing that you can point to and say This! This is why the woman in South Carolina lived to be 116 years old!
Its not kelp or collard greens, squid sushi or fried chicken.
Your weight is largely genetic. People who make major long lasting changes in their bodies are outliers
It may not be 1 thing, but there are reasons. What are they?
Youāre living in a world of outdated information. So anyone whoād take advice from you in relation to diet is in for a abrupt wake up.
Obesity rates in Canada and US mimic the obesity rates of the countries where the people immigrated from
Without any scientific data- Iāll say activity level is #1.
āLifestyleā- Food, activity, outlook on life, recreation etc.etc.etc.
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Have you ever heard of Epigenetics? Probably not since you are spewing out outdated information. What you eat, not genetics has a major role in shaping our body and mind among other things. A Super Brief and Basic Explanation of Epigenetics for Total Beginners What You Eat Adjusts Your Gut Microbiota and Epigenetic Marks | What is Epigenetics?
I know it may be difficult to believe but opinions are not facts and epigenetics turns the genetic exuse directly on itās head.
Then you are in the camp of the minority because what you eat is more important. Exercise Or Diet? One Is More Important For Weight Loss | HuffPost Life Read John Berardi.