Big Calves Hinder Speed/Vertical?

Jumanji · July 27, 2006, 2:02am

Zeb~

Where do I even start… here goes.

Squats are usually prescribed for young ones much in the same way deads are: low reps, but with weights that slowly progress. Remember that the small muscles on young athletes are the ones that will fail… the stabilizers, especially erectors. Plus, their attention span, while varied, is always shorter than you’d like.

So, slowly progress while the small muscles accomodate to the new workload… slowly. Remember, a nice deadlift now isn’t worth risking a slipped disc at an early age… so progress with ‘perfect’ caution. High reps are tough because the stabilizer muscles go before the legs.

So, lower reps, not to failure, with one stipulation: every rep must have perfect form… perfect.

If you want to get into the study of training young athletes, I think elite (Dave’s site) may have some resources, and I know that a guy named Brian Grasso and Kwame Brown are absolutely excellent advocates for young athletes, and Brian’s newsletter is worth signing up for… he started the IYSA, and their intentions are pure.

In terms of free resources, sign up for Lee Taft’s newsletter, Athlete’s Acceleration Newsletter, and read Kelly’s stuff… all of it.

Cleans? Well if your son is strong enough to need MaxF work beyond his own bodyweight, then O-Lifts CAN be great. I think most coaches who truly understand dynamic work would agree with me that in order for it to be necessary, the athlete must have a very good strength base.

To understand this, you’d have to really crack into DB Hammer’s appropriated weight concept… which is a really solid one, (and has been around for longer than DB, but whatever). Basically it helps you determine at what points Strength-Speed and Speed-Strength start and end.

Think of it this way: If I can barely squat more than I weigh, then I am squatting mostly my bodyweight, and a little bar weight. So, strength speed maximally displayed may be just my bodyweight… and speed strength maximally displayed may be less than I weigh… huh?

So strength speed work for a weak athlete is basically BW Jumps, and some medicine ball throws.

This is why some athletes shouldn’t even be doing a DE day for Westside… they really won’t get much from it. They need to get stronger… their body just needs more DUR work to increase their ability to create and maintain muscular tension for the lifts.

If you do decide on the O-Lifts, please google Prelipin’s table. This is what Louie and the boys based their DE day reps on, and they have written numerous articles on the idea that MaxF drops off quickly after the first couple reps… so they just do multiple sets of 2 or 3 reps… this is a good guideline.

What I do is ask other experts their opinions, see what is a constant principle, go to the source (science) and see for myself what I take away from the source, and then decide for myself how to incorporate the principle…

So I don’t argue with Prelipin… trust the science, and the additional insights provided by the men at Elite… they add many other solid reason as to why lower reps.

When I train young ones who are ready to progress to MaxF work, I utilize weight vests, and just do dynamic versions of exercises that are far simpler… but that is me. Later we move to a bar.

Remember, kids are not little grown-ups… they are kids…

Always weigh both sides, and then err on the side of conservative until the core muscles are amazingly strong and form is perfect.

I know you know this, but it is always good to reinforce.

Hope this helps.

J

Jumanji · July 27, 2006, 2:04am

Oh, GHam machine is great, reverse hypers are awesome, pull-throughs, etc. I like 4 way hip machines a ton also, but they are hard to find.

J

Scipio · July 27, 2006, 3:41am

OK, Jumanji, Kelley, Zeb,
Should we not have a feature article on plyos or an interview with Inno, Evo, etc? Well, not to advertise them but inasmuch as this form of training will become more known, this may be a great subject for the site. I am more than surprised the dearth of this instruction from well-known coaches. Then again, Kelley and Jumanji most likely are better than say, the UCLA S&C.

zylog · July 27, 2006, 3:59am

[quote]
I’ve never bought the idea that tendons have an elastic quality. I don’t know, but I think tendons are completely inflexible. Is there any proof out there? I think it would be pretty easy to prove or disprove in a lab.[/quote]

If you go into the material science side of things, one thing that is learned is that different types of deformation are possible.

To begin, all solids will deform when subjected to an external loading (e.g. pressure or tension). Stiff materials are those that will deform less for a given loading than soft materials.

An elastic deformation is one where the material returns to its original shape after the loading is removed. At the molecular level, the bonds between the atoms in the material are being bent, but not broken. As a result, when the material regains its shape, any energy the material absorbed during deformation will be returned (no energy loss).

As you increase the loading, you’ll reach a point known as the yield point, where the material will begin to deform plastically. What happens here is that molecular bonds will break, there will be a “shift” in the positions of the atoms, and bonds will reform in the new position.

At this point, the material is being permanently deformed, and if the load is removed, you will get back the elastic deformation energy minus the permanent deformation energy.

The difference between a “stiff” material and a “flexible” one is the slope of the linear relationship between the stress (i.e. force per unit area)and strain (i.e. % deformation). Supposing that you have two materials, deformating the same amount without yielding, then the stiffer material will return the energy it stored elastically more quickly, via a steeper force time curve.

I don’t have the numbers, but I can imagine that a tendon would be much stiffer than a contracted muscle. So, having a longer achilles tendon relative to rest of the lower leg would mean a higher average stiffness there which leads to a higher “passive” rate of force production.

So when it comes to top end speed, long tendons will tend to be beneficial for that reason. Of course, this is assuming that you are able to contract your calves at that high rate and level so that the entire lower leg performs elastically.

If you aren’t able to get your calves to produce enough force during the short contact time with the ground, then what happens is for each step you’ll end up performing negative work - limiting your total force output.

chicanerous · July 27, 2006, 5:20am

ZEB,

Don’t start the young kid with cleans to help his speed. Start him off with just the pull first: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1175186

Try to introduce him to squatting in the near future. After that, you can consider combining the two to get the actual Olympic lifts.

Good luck.

(Sorry if this was already stated.)

Jumanji · July 27, 2006, 12:34pm

Zylog~

Thanks. Great addition.

I don’t have the time currently, but you might also help explain the idea of different kinds of torque that are produced according to high or low insertion points…

Since you seem to understand the science quite well.

I think we had a discussion on this point before, but it never hurts to review.

Thanks.

J

ZEB · July 27, 2006, 1:12pm

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Zeb~