Biden 2021 - A Mediocre Middle Ground

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
3004

There’s a difference between “believing something one disagrees with” and spreading a pathogen because you’re a fragile snowflake in denial.

Two-tier society implies “equivalence”. Maybe laws about public nudity are also creating a two-tier society. How about homicide? Artificially grouping people as murderers and non-murderers. Discrimination, pure and simple.

Catering to a minority (yes, a minority) of snowflakes because they’re fragile do deal with the real world? Ban SATs! Ban exams! Vaccine is violence!

This is from 1878, but you should see what those fascists did to Philadelphians in 1793…

No, I’d use my “shitting in your pants” analogy.

3005

Semantics. They would still be working if not for the mandate.

So you and Loppar are here debating semantics, but why not cut to the chase and say that you’re in favor of putting the unvaccinated out of work? Why not simply say that you like the idea of government camps for the non-compliant?

If that accurately represents your position, what other behaviors do you think should result in unemployment? What else should we put people in camps for?

If the risk of the Kung-Flu justifies reorganizing society based on vaccination status, what other scourges do you think this approach would work on?

I hear that racism is a public health crisis, too…

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3006

And they still could be with the mandate. My point was you said they had no choice, but they did. They chose the option more palatable to them. It isn’t the government creating a two tier system, it is people deciding an option they like better that results in them having lower economic standing.

I am not. The idea of the mandate was to incentivize people to get the vaccine.

It’s not like people have no choice either. There is a religious exemption that can easily be had. If you are choosing not to work because of the mandate it really is a choice not to work. There is an organization online where you can sign up in 15 minutes and get a religious exemption.

3007

False. Vaccinated people spread the virus as well, almost as much unvacccinated. There is literally 13 % difference. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

However the vaccinated ones are confident in their vaccine protection and are probably spreading the virus much more. For example most countries have had double increase in cases after vaccination. Unfortunately there is no data on that online to support my claim, but most countries have more cases of vaccinated people than not. And no, I am not speaking about rates. I need raw numbers.

So you are pretty much a fragile vaccinated snowflake who is spreading a pathogen. Thank you for the contribution on this pandemic. Have you checked your contacts? Someone recently died of Covid? You can be a super spreader without knowing, loppar. Are you a super spreader?

Jokes aside. You cant take decisions on businesses and livelihood of people based on 13 % difference on spreading the virus. This is a violation of human rights.

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3008

I don’t know anyone who had success with that route. I suppose I’ll know on Thursday if they’re still at work. The last message we got from the top is that religious exemptions aren’t going to fly.

You can sugar coat the policy all you want, it is still creating a two tier society through executive fiat. There’s also no reason to believe that it will be the last step towards a two tiered society.

Or do you not remember a few months ago when Biden said in plain English that there would be no mandates?

I’ve been saying it for years now, we’re lining up for the next great ideological struggle and the Democrats are embracing who they’ve always been, right back to their foundation as The Party of Two Tier society.

That’s the only move they have left when their policies fail on such an abysmal level. They need a blame group.

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3009

So this would be from your company, not the government, right? The government is currently allowing religious exemptions. It seems like from what I have read, the power to grant the exemption lies with the employer.

Wasn’t that specifically around not mandating a vaccine though? I could be wrong, but mandating a requirement to be vaccinated for employment is separate from mandating everyone get the vaccine.

3010

No, because the company wouldn’t be letting anyone go if not for the federal mandate. It requires woke mental gymnastics to believe that the company would be doing this if the government didn’t require it.

This is almost certainly a legal triangulation being done that has absolutely nothing to do with caring who is vaccinated or not. A company will prioritize what keeps it competitive. Including not getting sued by employees being forced out, not getting fined by the government, staying compliant with the contract language, and making sure more contracts are awarded in the future.

I actually just asked one of these guys if he knows whether his exemption was accepted. He doesn’t, which means upper management is holding out until the last minute. The deadline is two days from now…

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3011

I can admit, I don’t know all of the rules on it. You may be right. FTR, I don’t agree with the mandate to have the vaccine to work in a company over 100, or for the government.

I was just trying to make a point that there was choice involved for those who are leaving work. It is a tradeoff, that I don’t agree they should have to make. At the same time, I think most are being a bit overly cautious about the vaccine. Someone who loses employment over it is IMO irrational, but I can also not agree with the mandate as it is.

3012

At this point I think it is a rational position to not trust the government on Covid, period. No matter your politics.

I chose the vaccine but did so in spite of, not because of, anything the government has done.

Many liberals sang the same tune when they expressed doubts about taking a vaccine developed under the Trump admin, including VP Harris.

We began the pandemic with Fauci explaining why we shouldn’t bother with masks during 15 days to slow the spread. Now we’re here, 20 months later, with unconstitutional mandates after the President said there would be no mandates.

Now you expect everyone to come along unquestioningly after 20 months of public health mismanagement and abysmal mixed messaging?

It’s silly to think people will, so it is foolish and improvident to organize society around a vaccine that’s been shown to be helpful but not the panacea it was touted as. It is, simply stated, a tyrannical measure enacted outside the framework of how our government is supposed to work.

Of course there is room for rational and even ethical refusal of the vaccine.

Who is more ethical, the vaccinated person who behaves in a way likely to spread Covid or the unvaccinated person who is an insular shut in?

This is not about public health. Not in the least.

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3013

I am in the dark on this matter, but if so (it being unconstitutional), do you think there will be law suits? Maybe there are already?

3014

Oh there have been many lawsuits already I’m sure. My guess is that our top management is hoping for a last minute injunction.

There is also widespread concern about the impacts this will have on armament production amidst an ongoing supply chain crisis. Many businesses and defense industry groups have been raising these concerns since the mandates were announced.

It is difficult to fathom a scenario where this mandate will strengthen the USAs strategic position either short or long term. Covid is doing what Covid does no matter what sort of vaccine mandates come down.

BTW the contractor mandate requires masks and social distancing policies in perpetuity too.

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3015

So did polio. Before the dreaded v-thing was introduced. Can you imagine the tyrannical mindset that was needed to vaccinate virtually everyone over a disease that killed a measly 1 to 3k Americans yearly, a number that would be laughingly handwaved away by today’s freedom lovers.

Those Americans living in the 1950s were obviously soft, meek sheeple.

3016

I wrote in another thread how it is an Apples to Oranges comparison. In simple terms, if every parent personally knew a child who was crippled or killed by Covid, as was common with polio, you’d have widespread vaccine acceptance, like you did with polio.

You’re suggesting that these people should be put out of work and that my concerns are misplaced. You even seem to like placing people in camps like Australia is doing, which are totally not concentration camps…

…not yet anyway.

You’ve made your position fairly clear. Congratulations again on being the first person to actually defend a Joe Biden policy in the Joe Biden thread. Bonus points for suggesting that dumb rubes don’t deserve to make a living.

I think we can agree to disagree at this point. You can put me firmly in the pro vaccine, anti mandate and ant lockdown category.

Call me old fashioned, but I’m also against concentration, sorry I mean, COVID detention camps.

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3017

The polio vaccine prevents you from getting polio and polio has been eradicated in the USA because of the polio vaccine…, the covid vaccine does not (key word not) prevent you from getting covid…big difference between the two vaccines

One is a cure, the other is not

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3018

Nope, not what I said at all. Reading is fundamental, understand what you read, even more so

What the hell are you talking about?

Well, be mystified then. That was my experience. No, I have only had a layover at JFK and that was quite enough of NY for me.

I attribute that to ‘white privilege’.

Not for me, just not impressed.

I still say you must be motivated by malice, anger and hate, rather than stupidity. Don’t make analogies so far off the reservation that should I feel the need to reconsider that opinion.
Maybe your just not an honest person who cannot handle the the actual arguments and points others make, so you create strawmen and destroy the shit out of them, leaving people’s actual points untouched. But hey, you ‘owned the cons’ I guess.

3019

Well no shit, that wasn’t my sole point. My point is everybody knew, or should have known who this man always has been, before voting on the simple basis that he isn’t the orange guy.
There is lots to criticize said Orange guy for, but hardly anybody has ever criticised him for anything related to actual policy. Except when they can say something is ‘racist’. Save for some far-leftists regarding the border. And we see the absolute unmitigated disaster the reversal of those policies have been. The estimates have over 2 million, illegal, unvaccinated, people have streamed across the southern border turning our boarder towns in to shanty towns.
What people don’t discuss, is policy. I cannot fathom why not. I guess the cultural aspect is just too juicy. Policy is the point. And most of my criticisms of Biden and the left are policy issues. His dementia and his near daily fuckups are fodder for amusing memes. And quite frankly a little scary that he is truly not all with it.
I realize that you are in the midst of a governmental collapse, so US issues may not be your front and center, but this administration has fucked up pretty much everything. The list is longer than Darell Brook’s rap sheet. The afore mention border is in crisis, the supply chain is in crisis, we were energy independent 10 months ago, now we are breaking into the strategic oil reserves, inflation is at a crisis point (seriously it’s bad), all economic indicators are showing a slowdown, Afghanistan was criminally horrible, the job market is in a bad place, but at the same time, it’s really bizarre. Just briefly, on that, we have 10 million jobs available, 9 million unemployed, and yet somehow in september 4 million people quit the jobs they had. If you think something doesn’t add up, you would not be alone. I have no idea what that means, but I know it cannot be good.
Anyway, continuing, we have a shortage of truckers and healthcare workers, and Biden’s mandates, though never in actual effect has cost thousands their jobs, in these industries where we are short staffed already. That is just some of Biden’s fuck ups.
And you don’t have to take my word for it, feel free to look any of this stuff up for yourself. Hell, I am sure I have forgotten some other policy fuckups, it’s just the tip of the iceberg really.
Hell, it’s not like it has gone unnoticed. All Biden had to do, was take the wheel and hold steady and he would be the most beloved president in decades, but he is polling worse than Trump. And that’s with very favorable media coverage. And the fact that he is polling so low, means it’s even worse than the polls indicate.
Because polls favor the left. How, you may ask? Well, you have to look at how the poll was conducted, where it often shows more democrats are polled than republicans, that most of them are phone polls, and most concentrate on the North Eastern, US which has a super high concentration of democrats and left leaning ‘independants’. So if you take my word, the target demographic leans left. That’s why the polls have been so consistently wrong the past 10 years and only wrong in one direction.
Again, don’t take my word for it. Feel free to verify.

3020

You lot are really in crisis. I reckon being so close to it, you don’t even realize how bad it is, or at least looks to the rest of the world. To detain people, who committed no crime with out due process is the nightmare dystopia we all fear. It’s what all those futuristic movies are always about. To set up roadblocks to catch 2 people who “escaped” from a covid camp, like they are violent criminals is terrifying. I don’t think Australia bounces back from this, not with the government in place.
I don’t envision a scenario where that government does not collapse. If you need help, let me know. I mean it, I don’t know what I can do, but I can try.

3021

I’m not in Australia at the moment :slight_smile:

3022

And this is always the same dishonest talking point I always hear. Are you far-leftists capable of arguing a point on the merits of an argument or is sloganeering and repeating "clever’ t-shirt memes really the best you got.
Who is anti-vax? It does not sound like @twojarslave is anti-vax. I haven’t heard him pontificate on the evils of vaccines. Just the mandates. And it is a little strange, if you hate these people so much, wouldn’t you rather they just get sick and die?

Everything you say hear is pure conjecture, not a single thing based in fact or reality and you expect to be taken seriously?
And idiocy and sheep-like behavior does not come from those who question, but from those who obey without question and repeat the same baseless talking points their leaders do, without question.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/12/02/inside_australias_howard_springs_covid_internment_camp_you_feel_like_youre_in_prison.html

Uh, it is a fact. Ignoring or pretending facts aren’t real, does not make them not real.
Fact: People who have been in ‘close contact’ with someone who has had a positive test are being taken to Howard Springs.
Fact: Indigenous people are being taken to Howard Spring Covid Internment camp, without trial, due process, or any of that bothersome civil liberty stuff.
Fact: People are being abused at the hand of state police enforcing masking and other covid restrictions.
Fact: Parts of Australia are limiting and confiscating people’s liquor.
Fact: These are hardly isolated incidents.
Fact: Our resident Aussie @unreal24278 cannot wait to leave because it’s so bad.

He does seem to be in favor of the Australia model. Otherwise, how can one deny the undeniable. I can only attribute this to hate and malice. That he wants to hurt and punish those who do not think like him. It’s a dangerous rabbithole many leftists find themselves in. Clearly, biden would follow the Aussie model if he could. Thank God our forefathers had the foresight to create a constitution, or we would be at the whims of biden and his lackeys.
The good news is he is free to think what he wants, say what he wants and hate who he wants. This is why free speech is so important. People can freely express themselves and you can tell good from evil.

That’s a ‘favorable’ reading. “Either do this, extracurricular, irreversible medical procedure that has nothing to do with your job, or be fired.” So I am sure you would have no problem with an employer making a rule that “If anybody has an abortion or has had an abortion, they will be fired.” That would be a rule if I owned a company.
I am not sure how that equals “choice”, but then that word has been defined by the far-left loosely for decades for various nefarious reasons.

No, they moved this perceived threat into terrorism. Problem is ‘racist’ means political enemies at this point. So if you ain’t with them, they will break down your door and haul you off to solitary where you will await trial for months. Or if you complain about their policies at a school board meeting, you are on the terrorism watch list. Nobody seems to grasp how scary this shit really is. What they did to Project Veritas and James O’keefe is unconscionable. It’s absolutely horrific. Over Ashly Biden’s diary? They didn’t even make up a good reason to do what they did. Having her diary is not a crime in the first place and if it were, it does not require the FBI.

Ding. Ding. Ding. This is about power. It’s obviously disappointing that covid isn’t and wasn’t as deadly as they had hoped, but that sure didn’t stop the hysteria. It’s about power. Full Stop.
I have to believe that these folks supporting this shit somehow believe they will be exempt from these rules. Otherwise they would live as if these rules exist and they clearly do not.
My conscience will not let me follow the ‘Rules for thee, but not for me’ mentality. Notice, they make no arguments, they provide no resources, they just call people names. I mean, technically, you have one the argument. Once your opponent has to resort to ad hominems rather than argue merits, you won. I say enjoy your victory and gleefully rub it in their faces and be a bad sport.
The leftist have no made a single verifiable claim, nor expressed an opinion based in fact. You either think like them, or your a ‘big idiot, snowflake, weak, pathetic, doo-doo head and they put pee-pee in your Coke.’

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3023

So you being okay with the abortion rule, means you should be okay with the vaccine requirement. Unless you don’t think the abortion rule should be allowed?