I disagree with almost everything about this but I acknowledge your stance. To clarify one thing I said: Afghans - inclusive of all groups within the border and not just the Taliban - embrace a warrior culture.
I understood what you meant about a warrior culture. Surrendering your capital city without firing a shot is a lot of things. But warrior culture isn’t one of them. Any warriors among them are at a minimum indifferent to Taliban control.
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First thank you for your service and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. As I stated , I was there in country for almost 5 years , most of the time imbedded with the military or police. There is no national identity in the major cities, all tribal corruption.
True statement, they could give a shit less about having a country.
Same here, but, they were amazed that some Russians were black.
Afghanistan is still in the 14th century with a few cell phones around the campfire.
There is no Afghan Identity except screw anyone outside your family of tribe.
Negative. Period.
Surely you are not serious here. Their “warrior culture” is a joke. At least 5 times they turned and ran from the Taliban during an engagement, leaving our team with no back up. Their “culture” is cowardice and corruption. You want something from a warlord?, military commander? Or police official? Just show them the money. You want something from any Afghan? Just show them the money. Corruption and deceit are the major components in their DNA.
You don’t know jack shit unless you been there.
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Warriors among most of the Afghan military and police are a joke.
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Thank you for the response and also for your service.
First - acknowledging what you referenced: I had a few ANA desert in the middle of the night a couple of times but never anything like what you experienced. I also saw rampant corruption and that money turned people very quickly.
However, both of these, in my opinion, demonstrate how little value they ascribed to our efforts for reasons that you also mentioned - namely that a national identity is vague and worthless. A Tajik recruited into the ANA that gets sent to fight in Sangin has no real skin in the game. His only certainties are that he gets paid shit, he’s a stranger in a part of the country he doesn’t care about, he’s worthless unless an American has his back, and he’ll either die in combat or get murdered by Taliban sympathizers at some point. I honestly don’t know what we ever expected from people in that situation and it’s wildly unsurprising that they folded like they did over the last couple of weeks.
My point about warrior culture actually was not about the ANA/ANP and their performance in OEF, but rather this: the tribal infighting that defines Afghanistan means that a significant percentage of the population (edit: to include the Taliban) has picked up a weapon at some point in the name of something they believe to be important, whether that be a perceived insult, revenge killing, commerce, whatever. Their causes can be belittled as part of their backwards-ass culture but for them that’s as real as it gets. I ran into guys that had been cleaning weapons on the daily since the Soviets were actually there, through OEF, and every no-name fight that happened in between. Perhaps warrior culture isn’t the right term, but whatever it is called I think it’s represented in Afghanistan way more than it is in America.
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Why would you even give that clown’s opinion any value? What qualifies him as an expert on this issue? He can talk about men all he wants but if there is ever a need in this country for men to stand up and fight, he will be behind it all the way. Very far behind. It’s easy for him to ask why those men won’t fight for their country when he lives somewhere that other men have done that job for him. He is the definition of a chickenhawk.
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That’s not the only options. You don’t have to prefer one side and completely reject common sense in order to constantly cheerlead one side and constantly call down the other. Seriously plenty of people on here throughout the years have had issues with Democrats and issues with Republicans on a case by case basis. But you’ve went full dummy with it and you don’t even care to hide it.
So we’ll sit back and watch you go on and on about the issues with something like the Afghanistan withdrawal knowing full well that just a year ago the exact same result would have been a “putting America first and the Afghan people need to take responsibility type post.”
Biden didn’t run on any lies bigger than Mexico will pay for the wall, the debt will be gone in 8 years, everyone will get health insurance and it will be cheaper, but here you are…
His competence in government is significantly higher than his predecessor. The past and still leader of your party the side you picked is a conman and a moron narcissist. As evidenced over and over and over.
Oh you haven’t just picked a side. It’s not a slight preference or anything. It’s completely stripped you of the ability to do anything but froth at the mouth when a Democrat is in charge and wear your fingers out hand waving and no big dealing on here when a Republican is.
In case you’re wondering I’m in a red state and we’re doing a lot better by almost all metrics since we got a Democratic governor and kicked out the all red leadership we had.
But I don’t think all Democrats are good nor all Republicans bad. Because I realize my options aren’t limited in the slightest by not being a massive partisan. When your party was (and still) is being completely irrational by trying to pretend someone won an election when they didn’t you don’t HAVE to buy into it just because you don’t like Dems. Trust me nothing is making you do that.
Case in point we had numerous conservatives for years who didn’t support the last four. We even had Republican fans say they were done with the bullshit over the election. You don’t just have two options at all.
Unfortunately, it would take more than a shot to stop it.
I would never overestimate the fighting spirit of the average person. In a potentially violent situation my first assumption would be that I can’t count on any one here to fight with me.
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You need some new friends and neighbors.
What does that have to do with Afghanistan? I couldn’t imagine how miserable someone needs to be in order to make everything somehow connect to partisan politics. It must be a terrifying thought to take the bias lenses off now and again.
The major flaw in his thinking is believing there are only two sides.
My friends, I don’t worry about. I’m talking about the average American and many of my friends are not average Americans. Most can’t stand up to a donut or Big Mac. Most can’t do the bare minimum of exercise to maintain their health. Most were not in the military. Most do not do any form of self defense or martial art training. If you can’t overcome yourself, then you won’t overcome someone else.
Good job today.
This is the Biden 2021 thread. I’ve been on topic.
By all means, both of you can continue with your insults and troll posts. That doesn’t change the reality of HR1, social media censorship or Biden’s disastrous execution of the Afghanistan withdrawal.
Would you expound on this further?
Edit see you somewhat answer this down thread, but how does a murderous group like taliban square with inter-tribal hostilities? These various tribes can fight each other over perceived slights or who gets to behead a prostitute, but can’t fight against Taliban coming in and killing them?
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It’s not an insult or a troll it’s just the reality of how how drastically different you are in Democratic vs Republican presidential thread.
But I think you’re pretty set in cheerleading and nothing anyone can say is going to change that and you’ve admitted that having a double standard isn’t something that you care about. So you’ll throw up your arms until Republicans are back in power. And then you’ll tell anyone who brings something up that it isn’t a big deal when they are.
It’s just really bizarre to me is all. Pretty sure I’d need to be getting paid by Republicans to root like that. I can’t imagine getting out of bed and saying no matter what Republicans do I’m cool with it and no matter what Democrats do I hate it.
But it wasn’t meant to insult or troll I just can’t figure out the mindset of the hyper partisan.
This is such a clusterfuck.
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I’m venturing dangerously close to being out of my depth, but I can characterize what I’ve seen which is what informs my opinion.
My response to this is “why would they?” Americans wonder why Afghans didn’t defend Kabul and the rest of the country in the same way that Americans would have defended DC if ISIS invaded. It’s an apples-to-monkey wrenches comparison. For the majority of people in that country life progresses on a micro level. Don’t mistake the footage of special visa holders, the educated, Kabul city folk, and whoever else at Kabul airport as a representative slice of Afghanistan. Go into the parts of Afghanistan that aren’t in the news (which represent the overwhelming majority of the country) and those people can’t tell you the first thing about Kabul or its stance on growing poppy, and they don’t care either. Kabul, ISAF, etc are as irrelevant as the next moon landing. Do they subscribe to Sharia law? Depends on the part of the country. Do they speak the same language of whoever’s in power? Maybe. Their biggest concern on a daily basis (read: the things that are important to them) are the things that support their daily subsistence and whatever small organization (tribe, family) with which they identify. When their micro politics come to a head they’re not afraid to fight and they do it all the time. They haven’t evolved dramatically in the last 20 years just because we’ve been there, so while the Taliban’s presence doesn’t necessarily represent an advancement, they’re not that concerned about the fact that their daughters aren’t going to read either. Because they are small, they are vulnerable and they get steamrolled whenever some headline force decides its going to do something in Afghanistan. When they’ve decided they’ve had enough of getting run over by the British, the Soviets, the Taliban, or the Americans, they’ll pick a fight. But after 20 years of being caught in the crossfire of the US and the Taliban, the Taliban’s headed back to Kabul - for better or worse. For them, fighting the advance of the Taliban would mean being a speed bump in the path of a train they don’t care about in the first place.
For the educated, the people who have actively tried to take a role in self-governance over the last couple of decades, and people who have actively aided the US (like our interpreters), I’m sure that many of them will die slowly, and that’s sad. But they are in no way average, they represent a fraction of the population, and they’re in no way equipped to actually fight. The National Army and National Police would be the natural solution but they’re a styrofoam wall of US creation, so there’s really no alternative.
The Afghans are a very poor yet very proud tribal people. I wouldn’t judge them too harshly for not rushing to defend a set of goal posts they never wanted.
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What does that have to do with Afghanistan?
Blame him for the inevitable. You know, you could have always volunteered for the military and been part of a war with no end in sight. If the Afghan people really meant that much to you, it would have been the right thing to do.
It really isn’t if we consider the Civil War. When faced with a choice, many Southerners chose their home state over the Union. Could it happen again here? Obviously, we have a military that is federalized so we can respond to issues of national defense, but if we are talking about citizens, how many people from NYC are going to rush to the defense of Dallas?
We can look at the former Yugoslavia and how, when again given a choice, different ethnic groups chose to go their separate ways. You can’t force a national identity on people.
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The lesson is simple - ethnic and religious differences can be swept under the carpet by money or security. Not by an ideology, a set of principles or a fancy constitution or whatnot but by tangible benefits for the masses.
If you’re unable or unwilling to provide the continuation of those benefits, then everyone reverts to their religious/ethnic identities in a heartbeat.
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