Bible Contradictions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1061

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@Jake,
I’ll try to answer later. I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with Pat and Zeb made a point I wanted to address and I still owe Capped a response from the other day. I still need to watch Chris’s video which I have, but have just not gotten to. Sheesh.[/quote]
Sorry to make work for you… I hope you have a good weekend.

PS I read most of that Van Til piece you linked (enough to get the gist). I don’t really like his ‘conversational’ writing style very much, but that is no matter. I’ve never been one to raise a lot of the ‘objections’ in there. I personally, even when in moments of doubt, am always brought back to belief by something I cannot truly explain (could be something like the ‘All Conditioner’) it is not reason, more like instinct, but that isn’t the right word as it doesn’t seem to come from me. The only thing that I can figure is when my mind wanders and doubt creeps in the Holy Spirit touches my mind and I am instantly reminded that nothing makes any sense without God.

1062

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man. [/quote]

All I am saying is that if you put things into motion just to see what happens then thatÃ??Ã?¢??s not a specific purpose. But I donÃ??Ã?¢??t believe that to be the case, I believe there is one, but I do not know what the purpose is. That’s one of my top questions for the Good Lord when I exit this life…[/quote]

You’re confusing me a bit. Do you believe God had/has a specific intent for this universe?[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t mean to. Yes, I believe has a specific intent, but I can’t prove it at all and I have no idea what the purpose could possibly be. Perhaps if I had some idea of purpose, I can make an argument for it. There is a a reason why things are the way they are, I just don’t know what it is…[/quote]

If you did you’d be God.

1063

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey BC read this:

http://www.reformed.org/index.html

It’s uh, enlightening. And twisted.[/quote]

Very strange and hard to read. They don’t know how to state in plain words what they believe I suppose. With all that cut up Scripture in there, the sentences were terrible to read. As well I like Q48 or whatever about the printed Bible. You can definitely see what they prefer, Jesus or the Bible. My first question was why would you need the printed Bible in Heaven when you have the WHOLE WORD right there, what are you going to proof text him or make sure he’s telling you the truth?

1064

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Tragically, man did taint himself for all time by disobeying God and fell. [/quote]

You are born anew when you are baptized (John 3:5-7). However, our reason is not affected directly with the fall, but indirectly by unstable emotions that cloud our logic and reason since the fall. And, some people are just dumb. I would like to see some of these “fallen man’s logic” people tell that to Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Augustine that they their logic is that of a fallen man because they didn’t say the sinner’s prayer (which I have only found in English and definitely not in Latin).

1065

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

After reading your comment we need to start a thread: “Non Christians don’t get it.”

And I guess they’re not supposed to get it. As I’ve sad multiple times, it’s about faith. As the Bible says “it is impossible to please God without faith.” Those who know not the Lord want proof and there will never be any proof, not the kind that you’re looking for. “Proof” is NOT pleasing to God. If there were proof then faith would not be needed and hence his statement would make no sense.

So, with that said all of this back and forth debate is pretty foolish isn’t it?[/quote]

You seem to confuse “thinking stupid things” with “having faith”. You can call it the second, but I can see when its the first.

Pat, at least, is making a good argument as to why (in his case) its faith, and not simply his parroting what the sunday school teacher said and defending it with “The magic book says so!!”

If more christians were like him I’d respect more christians. [/quote]

Here’s a clue for you, it doesn’t matter that atheists don’t respect “more Christians.” Faith is what it is. I’m glad Pat explained it for you and you respect him - that’s nice. But, in the scheme of things it doesn’t really matter who you respect. All that matters is your relationship to God. And that will always be about faith and as I’ve said many times, God is not some sort of scientific experiment where he can be placed in a box prodded and tested endlessly. He laughs at human intellect. I know that bothers you and I know you enjoy ridiculing a 2000 year old religion that people have much reverence and respect for. And you’ll have to ask yourself why so much hostility toward something that isn’t even real. I have my own ideas as to why so many atheists have to ridicule a God that they believe doesn’t even exist.
[/quote]

I think that opening dialog between people is always important. What’s more important than the stance Cap holds currently, is that he is in a dialog and he is interested in learning stuff about us Christians. Will he change, renounce atheism, and become a baptized Christian, I doubt it. But perhaps dialog between people willing could lead to good things.
I stated before, the atheists/ agnostics ask great questions about faith. Their challenge has helped me to learn more about God, man and faith.
Quite frankly, I have seen a lot of Christians act like jerks in my time. So people getting turned off by them, I can understand sometimes. Now conversely, the arrogance of many atheists and their behavior make me want to puke too.
What I want for people to do is just to seek the truth, come what may. It’s not my job to make people think like me, I just want them to think.
Cap, has asked good questions. I appreciate the fact that we could dialog without name calling and badgering. If nothing comes from it, we had a good talk still.

1066

[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
[/quote]
Literal interpretations are problematic. I always recommend an unabated, uninhibited search for truth. Your issues are duly noted, but I think context and audience are huge factors. Who was this written for, what was the point of this piece, what is the message, etc.

Let’s take for instance the burnt offerings / animal sacrifices. These ancients were going to do that anyway, to some one or something. Early in the bible, it seems God spent a great deal of time on the first commandment.
Fine, you are going to do sacrifices, it better be to me. Rather than shooting lightening bolts out of his eyes, he took what they were doing and pushed it in his direction.
This stuff was written for some stubborn neanderthal boobs. They need info in ways they understand and force, they understood.[/quote]

I can appreciate that response to a point, and thank you for taking the time . And for all intents and purposes that is nearly the same reasoning my father, who is an elder in good standing, used as well in our discussions. However I believe if it is meant to also be a ‘timeless’ record of God’s dealings with and requirements for his creation, then the nature of the proposed histories, miracles, and justice or perceived lack thereof would be a bit more approachable to a modern culture. That is IF the intention of its writing was as believers often attest, to attract one to worship its author.

However I’m not so certain all would agree that that is the bible’s purpose, per se. Others have described it more as a touchstone to separate ‘wheat from chaff’ so to speak. For that purpose a certain amount of moral ambiguity and inexplicable character would serve the purpose of shaking lose the spiritually lazy or otherwise ‘unworthy’.

But if that is all it is, then it seems a bit grandiose and overwrought. One would think the designer of DNA would have a more concise, efficient, and consistent method for that type of ‘separation’. These are just my opinions from an admittedly limited perspective.[/quote]

You know, I too wish God would be more obvious. I wish he would just come down make things right, end suffering and division, and let us hang with him and let those who deny him to deny him to his face. But, what would that do to freewill? The fact is that God is not obvious and apparently, that’s just the way he wants it.

The bible is a problematic book and it’s also an amazing book. But as you can see evidenced here, that people can all read the same book and get very different things from it. It’s also really not one book, it’s more like a library of books. They all have a point, and they are not all well understood.
The one book I kinda wish “they” left out was Revelation. That is the one book man has twisted in such abominable ways to their own end. Everybody thinks they get it, and in the end, I am pretty sure everybody is wrong.

1067

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@Jake,
I’ll try to answer later. I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with Pat and Zeb made a point I wanted to address and I still owe Capped a response from the other day. I still need to watch Chris’s video which I have, but have just not gotten to. Sheesh.[/quote]

Pat is easy, just answer the questions I ask, honestly, with out trying to figure out how to twist it and with out going into some weird diatribe/ proclamation of hatred. Just answer the questions I ask directly. It’s real easy. Do that and there is no problem. Can you do that?

1068

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey BC read this:

http://www.reformed.org/index.html

It’s uh, enlightening. And twisted.[/quote]

Very strange and hard to read. They don’t know how to state in plain words what they believe I suppose. With all that cut up Scripture in there, the sentences were terrible to read. As well I like Q48 or whatever about the printed Bible. You can definitely see what they prefer, Jesus or the Bible. My first question was why would you need the printed Bible in Heaven when you have the WHOLE WORD right there, what are you going to proof text him or make sure he’s telling you the truth?[/quote]

I cannot honestly see how somebody can read that after having read scripture and say, “yeah this makes sense!” The elect cannot and will not be denied heaven no matter what? Seriously, why even try.
I really thought puritanism was dead…I am sorry I was wrong…

1069

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey BC read this:

www.reformed.org/index.html

It’s uh, enlightening. And twisted.[/quote] 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 [quote]12-Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13-And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14-The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.[/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Can you do that?[/quote]You’ve beaten me Pat. You can sleep well tonight with a smile on your face in the full knowledge of your triumphant defeat of this poor ol twisted reformer.

1070

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man. [/quote]

All I am saying is that if you put things into motion just to see what happens then thatÃ??Ã?¢??s not a specific purpose. But I donÃ??Ã?¢??t believe that to be the case, I believe there is one, but I do not know what the purpose is. That’s one of my top questions for the Good Lord when I exit this life…[/quote]

You’re confusing me a bit. Do you believe God had/has a specific intent for this universe?[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t mean to. Yes, I believe has a specific intent, but I can’t prove it at all and I have no idea what the purpose could possibly be. Perhaps if I had some idea of purpose, I can make an argument for it. There is a a reason why things are the way they are, I just don’t know what it is…[/quote]

If God has a specific intent for this universe, and has unlimited power to do whatever he wants, why not just make whatever he’s created the universe for happen? If its all leading up to something, why all the lead-up?

Perhaps “god as scientist” is an interesting way to look at it, but that would mean a god with limited (though, seemingly unlimited to us) power and knowledge.

1071

Also, did Chris ever get back to me on the timeline of the universe w/r/t the creation of heaven?

1072

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hey BC read this:

www.reformed.org/index.html

It’s uh, enlightening. And twisted.[/quote] 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 [quote]12-Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13-And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14-The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.[/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Can you do that?[/quote]You’ve beaten me Pat. You can sleep well tonight with a smile on your face in the full knowledge of your triumphant defeat of this poor ol twisted reformer.
[/quote]

For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
(1 Corinthians 2:11 ESV)

I beat you? If you want to look at it that way, I beat you a long time ago. That’s never was the point. All I wanted was honest dialog. Two Christians talking and sharing the glory of God together. Sharing thoughts, similarities and differences. You couldn’t do it. You had to bash my faith and insult my religion; that’s never going to turn out well.
I sleep well anyway, your small issue to that, and I hope like wise I am small issue to your rest.

If you want to, take a break, but check yourself. We can be two Christians, unified in our love for God talking about him. But the real truth is that you are not elect beyond reproach and I am not condemned by default. Jesus died for all people, the ‘elect’ are simply those who choose to accept his salvation, the condemned are those who willfully reject him. He gave us that choice. It’s in the bible, see for yourself.
God bless you Tirib. I didn’t beat you, you beat yourself.

1073

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

If God has a specific intent for this universe, and has unlimited power to do whatever he wants, why not just make whatever he’s created the universe for happen? If its all leading up to something, why all the lead-up?

Perhaps “god as scientist” is an interesting way to look at it, but that would mean a god with limited (though, seemingly unlimited to us) power and knowledge.[/quote]

Well I am with you there. I wish God would just come with it and spare us the suspense. But it is clear, he does not want to be obvious and he wants us to struggle with it; why? I don’t know. I honestly would prefer the direct approach too.

But just because God doesn’t act the ways we think he should or because we don’t like it doesn’t mean he does not exist or that he does not have a plan or does not love us.
Here’s what I don’t like, I don’t like to suffer, I don’t like to wait, and I do like pleasure. The first two seems to trump the third.

What I want? I want him to pop in and just hang out and tell me what it all is. Perhaps share a meal and discuss, as long as he pays… :slight_smile:

Actually, it’s one of the reasons I love summer… I pour a big ass glass of whiskey, fire up a tasty cigar, put on the iPod and I ‘talk’ to God. They are great moments really.

What you can do, is ask God himself. Just tell him, “If you really exist, ______.” ← insert what ever you want. If there’s no God you’ll never get a response, if he does you will. It is actually that simple. Forget religion, faith, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. just you and him. That’s it, and that’s all it’s about.
You can do it or not, it’s up to you. But I figure, if you really want to know, if you are really curious, go to the source.

1074

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< I’ve read the Westminster Confession in it’s entirety actually and that part does not make sense. It’s like having your cake and eating it too. >>>[/quote]It IS having my cake and eating too. The whole of scriptural principle on the related topics adds up to exactly that. Is man free and accountable? Yep.(but not as free as God) Has God foreordained “whatsoever comes to pass” including sin and death? Yep. Is He therefore responsible for sin and death? Nope. Do I understand that? Nope. No problem at all. That’s some sweet sweet cake to me. And wedding cake at that. Pass me another piece. That confession is 365 years old. Long before I was around and it was the prevailing theology at the time of the American revolution. That doesn’t make it true in itself, but it also shows it ain’t some bizarre modern invention of mine.

If I had the means I would buy you a copy of “The Defense of the Faith”. That’s a much more formal treatment of the subject matter. I don’t have mine any more. These were articles written for magazines of the day, hence the sort of chatty flavor. Van Til officially solved it for me. I need sleep. Long day. More tomorrow.

Oh yeah, one more clarification. I cannot stand dispensationalism, but the folks I’ve known who held that horrifically erroneous system of fractured hermeneutics were fine Christian people having the life and death core of the gospel intact.

1075

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Also, did Chris ever get back to me on the timeline of the universe w/r/t the creation of heaven?[/quote]

There is no timeline before the physical universe, but from my research (short as it was) I have not found any determined answer. Likely because it hasn’t been revealed (or maybe I need to look harder for the answer) or reasoned if it was before or after the creation of the P.U. However, as I said before there is a few verses in Job talking about the Angels being in awe and worship as God created the world, so it could be that they were here before the P.U.

1076

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

If God has a specific intent for this universe, and has unlimited power to do whatever he wants, why not just make whatever he’s created the universe for happen? If its all leading up to something, why all the lead-up?

Perhaps “god as scientist” is an interesting way to look at it, but that would mean a god with limited (though, seemingly unlimited to us) power and knowledge.[/quote]

Well I am with you there. I wish God would just come with it and spare us the suspense. But it is clear, he does not want to be obvious and he wants us to struggle with it; why? I don’t know. I honestly would prefer the direct approach too.

But just because God doesn’t act the ways we think he should or because we don’t like it doesn’t mean he does not exist or that he does not have a plan or does not love us.
Here’s what I don’t like, I don’t like to suffer, I don’t like to wait, and I do like pleasure. The first two seems to trump the third.

What I want? I want him to pop in and just hang out and tell me what it all is. Perhaps share a meal and discuss, as long as he pays… :slight_smile:

Actually, it’s one of the reasons I love summer… I pour a big ass glass of whiskey, fire up a tasty cigar, put on the iPod and I ‘talk’ to God. They are great moments really.

What you can do, is ask God himself. Just tell him, “If you really exist, ______.” ← insert what ever you want. If there’s no God you’ll never get a response, if he does you will. It is actually that simple. Forget religion, faith, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. just you and him. That’s it, and that’s all it’s about.
You can do it or not, it’s up to you. But I figure, if you really want to know, if you are really curious, go to the source.

[/quote]

Not to jump into your talk with CappedAndPlanIt.

I won’t say I know exactly why, no one ever does. However, as his “friends” and “brothers” we are privy to understand some of it the reason “why?”

Love [I honestly hate this word because of it being dragged through the mud for a few centuries, a better word that I am going to use from now on for substitute of the word “love” is “charity”], or charity.

Now, when we think of love we think of weird stuff that isn’t what love means (not saying your definition is wrong, just wrong for this situation). God is charity. If you look at charity, it’s the freely given gift (money, housing, food, &c) to someone who freely accepts it (and usually needs it). It is not forced.

Welfare is not charity, it is welfare. It is not charity because usually it is taking something from one person by force and giving it to someone else. Charity is like the Ronald McDonald houses, you roll up to McDonald’s and buy your pancake breakfast and have change left over and see the donation box, no one is forcing you to give it, and you drop the change in the box and then someone gets to use that when they can’t afford to be by the hospital.

Same thing, why didn’t he just make us worship him, why didn’t he just create us already in Heaven (I think this might go into the angel thing that I’ll explain later), why all the suffering and pain? Charity, God being charitable didn’t want to force his gift on us. Is it charity if I see a homeless man and I force him to take ny pancake breakfast? No, it’s just me being a dick to a homeless man and making him accept the food even if he doesn’t want it.

Same thing with God. He didn’t want to force us to accept his gift, we had it at the first, but he wasn’t going to force us to not lose the inheritance. The prodigal son is talking about us, we had the inheritance, and the father wasn’t going to make us stay and be obedient to him. He will let us go out and blow it, he knows that we’ll suffer blowing the money on gambling and hookers, but he’ll still let us, because he gave it to us to do with it as we wished. When we turn around and realise that we blew our money and now we got no money working for some dude for barely any money to eat, he’ll still accept us if we come back. He knows we had been gambling and sleeping with hookers, doesn’t matter that’s now what it’s about. It is about the son being with the father.

1077

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

If God has a specific intent for this universe, and has unlimited power to do whatever he wants, why not just make whatever he’s created the universe for happen? If its all leading up to something, why all the lead-up?

Perhaps “god as scientist” is an interesting way to look at it, but that would mean a god with limited (though, seemingly unlimited to us) power and knowledge.[/quote]

Well I am with you there. I wish God would just come with it and spare us the suspense. But it is clear, he does not want to be obvious and he wants us to struggle with it; why? I don’t know. I honestly would prefer the direct approach too.

But just because God doesn’t act the ways we think he should or because we don’t like it doesn’t mean he does not exist or that he does not have a plan or does not love us.
Here’s what I don’t like, I don’t like to suffer, I don’t like to wait, and I do like pleasure. The first two seems to trump the third.

What I want? I want him to pop in and just hang out and tell me what it all is. Perhaps share a meal and discuss, as long as he pays… :slight_smile:

Actually, it’s one of the reasons I love summer… I pour a big ass glass of whiskey, fire up a tasty cigar, put on the iPod and I ‘talk’ to God. They are great moments really.

What you can do, is ask God himself. Just tell him, “If you really exist, ______.” ← insert what ever you want. If there’s no God you’ll never get a response, if he does you will. It is actually that simple. Forget religion, faith, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. just you and him. That’s it, and that’s all it’s about.
You can do it or not, it’s up to you. But I figure, if you really want to know, if you are really curious, go to the source.

[/quote]

I’ve tried that, believe it or not. Never gotten a response. If anything it pushed me further from believing.

If God was all loving, and God could prove himself, and God knew proving himself would result in humans (his most beloved creation) spending eternity with him in heaven, and God simply chooses not to, then God chooses to send people to hell.

Or, God could just skip the earth part and populate heaven, if he wanted.

The problem with the concept of god is that if you posit “The thing we cant understand that can do anything” than of course its the answer to every question. but then you get a lot of “Well, if it can do anything, why doesnt it _________?”

Which leads to the response of “We can’t understand”. Leading me to ask, “If we can’t understand god, how can you call him loving, or all powerful, or all knowing, since any of these declarations mean you understand him well enough to say so?”

1078

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Leading me to ask, “If we can’t understand god, how can you call him loving, or all powerful, or all knowing, since any of these declarations mean you understand him well enough to say so?”[/quote]

You grow to understand God through the reading of his word in the Bible. And since you reject that book there is no hope for you understanding who God is.

1079

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

If God has a specific intent for this universe, and has unlimited power to do whatever he wants, why not just make whatever he’s created the universe for happen? If its all leading up to something, why all the lead-up?

Perhaps “god as scientist” is an interesting way to look at it, but that would mean a god with limited (though, seemingly unlimited to us) power and knowledge.[/quote]

Well I am with you there. I wish God would just come with it and spare us the suspense. But it is clear, he does not want to be obvious and he wants us to struggle with it; why? I don’t know. I honestly would prefer the direct approach too.

But just because God doesn’t act the ways we think he should or because we don’t like it doesn’t mean he does not exist or that he does not have a plan or does not love us.
Here’s what I don’t like, I don’t like to suffer, I don’t like to wait, and I do like pleasure. The first two seems to trump the third.

What I want? I want him to pop in and just hang out and tell me what it all is. Perhaps share a meal and discuss, as long as he pays… :slight_smile:

Actually, it’s one of the reasons I love summer… I pour a big ass glass of whiskey, fire up a tasty cigar, put on the iPod and I ‘talk’ to God. They are great moments really.

What you can do, is ask God himself. Just tell him, “If you really exist, ______.” ← insert what ever you want. If there’s no God you’ll never get a response, if he does you will. It is actually that simple. Forget religion, faith, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. just you and him. That’s it, and that’s all it’s about.
You can do it or not, it’s up to you. But I figure, if you really want to know, if you are really curious, go to the source.

[/quote]

I’ve tried that, believe it or not. Never gotten a response. If anything it pushed me further from believing.

If God was all loving, and God could prove himself, and God knew proving himself would result in humans (his most beloved creation) spending eternity with him in heaven, and God simply chooses not to, then God chooses to send people to hell.

Or, God could just skip the earth part and populate heaven, if he wanted.

The problem with the concept of god is that if you posit “The thing we cant understand that can do anything” than of course its the answer to every question. but then you get a lot of “Well, if it can do anything, why doesnt it _________?”

Which leads to the response of “We can’t understand”. Leading me to ask, “If we can’t understand god, how can you call him loving, or all powerful, or all knowing, since any of these declarations mean you understand him well enough to say so?”[/quote]

I believe you. And like I said, I too wish God would be more plain with his stuff. I don’t know what you asked or discussed with Him, but I hope you get an answer one day or at least a realization as to why you didn’t. Very recently I got a clear and bizarre answer to something I had been praying and struggling with something for years, causing myself to doubt the Good Lord, too at times. It wasn’t a direct answer to my prayers per se, it was a clear exposure as to why getting the answer I wanted would have been a disaster.

I am sure you know who Mother Teresa is. Time magazine did a dedicated special edition about her to celebrate what would have been her 100th birthday. It revealed some very interesting things. One of them was that early in her life she actually spoke to Jesus, not like prayer or anything like that, I mean spoke. It’s nothing she ever revealed to anybody but her closest confidants, they showed it in her letters after she died. There he told her basically what he wanted her to do. As far as I know it was only the one time. That’s not thing interesting part :), this next part is.
In the midst of her greatest accomplishments and when she was doing the most work, she was mired in a crisis of faith. She her self, a woman who allegedly received marching orders directly from the man himself, doubted her faith. She was in a faith crisis wondering at times if there was even a God and why did she bother. She complained that she felt totally abandoned by God.
She talked to God and still had doubts. That is how fragile it all is.
So even if God were obvious there would still be doubts and it really wouldn’t matter the evidence. Even the most faithful doubt from time to time.

I think BC made a good point in that he gave us freewill. I reckon he knows that if he gave us all the answers he would trump that and still not have the faith of all the people anyway.
And you may yet get your answer, but he never answers the way you think, at least he doesn’t for me…It’s always some weird angle I never thought of.

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< God is charity. If you look at charity, it’s the freely given gift (money, housing, food, &c) to someone who freely accepts it (and usually needs it). >>>[/quote]Hmmmmm. The word charity as rendered by the KJV crew and the D.R. crew as well, but as love by the NAB guys and the ESV scholars as well as the Lockman team responsible for my personal favorite the NASB, derives from the Greek verb agapao and known famously to us as the feminine noun agape. It occurs over 200 times in it’s various forms in the New Testament and is used for a wide variety of generally positive things. Ranging from important feasts to the love of and for God Himself. It is not however to the best of my knowledge directly used in the way you are here professing.

The same word is used at least twice that I could find offhand in the account of Amnon’s incestuous rape of Tamar in the Septuagint rendering of 2nd Samuel 13 to describe Amnon’s attitude toward her. To say that “love” should be charity and means soup kitchens and financial aid is a purely Catholic invention.