Bible Contradictions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1041

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Trib,
I have been trying to affirm all that is true that you believe and point out that the practice of the Christian life is very similar between you and I, but there is one thing that I find truly repulsive about Calvinism, so I have one more question that I will pester you with. If it is pre-ordained as to who will be saved and who will not and in fact everything is pre-ordained, then did God ordain the fall of mankind? If He is sovreign in the way Calvinist/reformed churches teach that He is then it must be so, no? If you can straighten me out on this please do so, because if this is the reality that God ordained the fall of man, then… Please by all means explain to me how this fits.[/quote]Jake I believe the Lord would have me type this all out for at least the dozenth time just for you, but I’m gonna need a little time. For now I will tell you as I have these guys over and over that God did indeed render the fall of man unalterably certain without being guilty of sin and I have no idea how He did nor do I care anymore. I trust Him.
Yet again the Westminster divines in the great confession of 1646 ch. III sect. 1.

[quote]I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. [/quote]Does that make sense to my carnal nature? Nope, but just like that great body that spent 4 years hammering out these doctrines I see that THAT is indeed what saith the scriptures.

Here is a prime exhibit of what I’ve been dealing with. I give you my friend Christopher who, regardless of what He believes I actually do have a real heart for. My wife thinks He’s practically family by how much I talk about and pray for him.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Basically God commissioned evil. He made some men to do evil things…on purpose. That is Tirib’s God.[/quote]The bolded part is what appears to be a symptom of His terminal Thomism brought on by subjecting his already autonomous mind to an overdose of super developed further autonomy in the form of Catholic epistemology(Mr. Deep DEEP Grey). Hence he, being already enslaved since conception to his own mind, has forged 75 more feet of quasi naturalist chain with which to shackle himself yet more securely all the while yelling at me through the tightly coiled links about how free he is and how wrong I am. He does not, he CANNOT get it.

I hasten to clarify, this also for the 1000th time, that I too was conceived and born enslaved to my own mind and carnal nature and spent my 1st 20 years feeding it lavishly for which I almost paid with my life. Left to myself I doubt I would be here so I view myself as no better than anyone and much worse than many. The difference is. God. G.O.D. Not me. I was not and am not the deciding factor in my destiny or I would have perished in my filth. I am tellin you that when I read Calvin on sin it destroyed my self image. He makes no attempt to convince anybody of anything. He simply makes statements describing the exceeding sinfulness of sin and it’s effect on the human soul and then will say something like “and the heart which dwells richly in the light of His holiness and mercy KNOWS this to be the case”.

I looked myself in the eyes in the mirror in my then apartment, heart wide open and I knew he was tellin me the truth. I have never been the same. God used John Calvin to ruin my life and thereby begin it’s reconstruction. Van Til simply taught me how to think in that light.

I’ll read your page. You have my word. If you are at all interested in a classic Van Til piece of a different type, but still short and non technical check this: http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/index.html?mainframe=/apologetics/why_I_believe_cvt.html

EDIT:Jake, please do me a favor. I have read your link which is pretty much like many others I’ve read including one Chris already linked me to a while back. Here’s a tip. Try n find some where the heroes didn’t start as dispensationalists. A system of doctrine I disdain almost as much as Catholicism. Chris’s had this problem as well. There are some. I’ve read them too. I could grab some true heart wrenching stories of lifelong Catholics, including ordained clergy who tearfully escaped the clutches of Rome to find safety in the arms of the triumphant sovereign Christ, but haven’t and doubt if I will. Why? Because there are endless seemingly persuasive stories of proponents of EVERYthing converting to EVERYthing else. Always has been always will be. These poor folks had a sandy foundation to begin with and do further make a couple points I’ve been making here forever.

1042

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You going to apologize or you going to keep referring to me as part of the Anti-Christ?[/quote]I didn’t say you were part of THE anti christ. I used that phrase because it fits what I’m saying. I have not settled what I think of Rome’s participation in the last days but it IS an anti Christian church and for that I cannot and will not apologize.
[/quote]

Prove it. Your word is not good enough. Prove the evil or STFU about it.

1043

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens.

1044

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

After reading your comment we need to start a thread: “Non Christians don’t get it.”

And I guess they’re not supposed to get it. As I’ve sad multiple times, it’s about faith. As the Bible says “it is impossible to please God without faith.” Those who know not the Lord want proof and there will never be any proof, not the kind that you’re looking for. “Proof” is NOT pleasing to God. If there were proof then faith would not be needed and hence his statement would make no sense.

So, with that said all of this back and forth debate is pretty foolish isn’t it?[/quote]

I disagree. But specifically you mean atheist/ agnostics. I can tell you this, I have seldom had a Christian challenge my faith like atheists/ agnostics. The simple questions of ‘what do you believe and why do you believe its right?’ is a question we should challenge ourselves daily. We MUST know the answer. And I have learned a tremendous amount about my faith and God in general by being challenged.
If your faith cannot stand up to scrutiny, it’s probably errant, or you (not you specifically) are a fool.

1045

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

After reading your comment we need to start a thread: “Non Christians don’t get it.”

And I guess they’re not supposed to get it. As I’ve sad multiple times, it’s about faith. As the Bible says “it is impossible to please God without faith.” Those who know not the Lord want proof and there will never be any proof, not the kind that you’re looking for. “Proof” is NOT pleasing to God. If there were proof then faith would not be needed and hence his statement would make no sense.

So, with that said all of this back and forth debate is pretty foolish isn’t it?[/quote]

You seem to confuse “thinking stupid things” with “having faith”. You can call it the second, but I can see when its the first.

Pat, at least, is making a good argument as to why (in his case) its faith, and not simply his parroting what the sunday school teacher said and defending it with “The magic book says so!!”

If more christians were like him I’d respect more christians.

1046

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.

1047

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Puritanism? Really, that archaic joke of an abomination that killed possessed people? The one responsible for the darkest ages in North Eastern America a.k.a. the 17th century? Glad I do not live near you, lest I be hung.

“He believes that insane bible which does in fact actually teach what he’s been saying.” Which is why I am always able to back it up with Scripture, I just don’t pick and choose my favorite parts and toss away the rest.[/quote]You are spectacularly clueless Pat.

[quote]pat wrote:<<< I will not sacrifice the truth for lies. >>>[/quote]You are doing that right now [quote]pat wrote:<<< You ain’t special, >>>[/quote]Not in the least and I have emphatically stated that a thousand times. [quote]pat wrote:<<< God loves all of man kind, not just one special branch of Christians.[/quote]<<< Nobody ever said anything about any branch of Christians.>>>[quote]pat wrote:<<< Prove the Catholic church practices self worship…Don’t say it, prove it. If you cannot then don’t say it again. That is only fair. >>>[/quote]You are entirely immune Pat. I have buried you in the clearest statements of scripture imaginable and you do not cease to demand what I have already given. The record here speaks for itself.[quote]pat wrote:<<< Actually, I would like to hear a statement of faith from you, what do you actually believe. >>>[/quote]Ask me anything, but for the one thousandth time again. I go along with MOST of this http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ [quote]pat wrote: <<< Mine is the defined in the Nicene Creed. I allow that to speak as my statement of faith.[/quote]I’ll take that. Very solid. I just define “catholic” different than you do. Maybe different that they did. (oh here it comes folks, just watch)[quote]pat wrote:<<< I would also like the answers to my questions from before…[/quote]I don’t know what you’re precisely referring to, but heretofore my answers have been totally lost on you. As the Lord lives that is intended as absolutely no offense, but is a simple statement of fact.
[/quote]

First. lets be real clear, you damn sure intended offense and you gave it spades. To say you have argued any point in good faith is a flat out lie. Yes, it is. You mean offense and it was taken that way. If you say otherwise you are a liar.

Second, the only supposed evils of Catholicism you pointed out, like statue or saint worship is not true under any circumstance. So if you combat things that aren’t true in the first place, you haven’t made a point. You just continue to believe things that are not true and don’t exist. If you want to combat phantoms and non-reality go ahead, but leave decent people alone. Otherwise I want the real actual truth. It is my belief that, if you found out Catholicism ain’t half bad, you may lose your faith. If it’s truly that weak, you have none to begin with. I want the real problem presented, not lies, not bias, things that we actually do and believe I want proven wrong with out being able to be proven right.

I will restate my questions. It started with your literal adherence to the two different creation stories in Genesis.

If you take the bible literally, then when Christ himself established the church, by his own authority, who said the gates of hell would not prevail against it in scripture. Yet you call it evil, run by satan. Your little sect did not sprout out until at least 1500 years later, yet what we call RC now, was it. That was Christianity, you had small off shoots from time to time, but there was just one Christian church. The RC tradition is the only, and I mean only church that adheres to the traditions and beliefs of the early church, because it’s the same church. That tradition traces it’s roots all the way back to what Jesus said in Matthew. So given what he said and what we believe how can you say we’re evil? I still haven’t had a real answer.
My kids are Catholic, could you look them in the eyes, tell them they are going to hell and believe what you are saying? Do you think God is that evil that he’d toss my kids to hell because they did not memorize the bible and got ‘saved’? They are 100% catholic and my son asks great questions; I give him honest answers.

1048

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :slight_smile:

1049

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< First. lets be real clear, you damn sure intended offense and you gave it spades. To say you have argued any point in good faith is a flat out lie. Yes, it is. You mean offense and it was taken that way. If you say otherwise you are a liar. >>>[/quote]Then keep your pearls Pat and cease immediately from casting them before this wretched swine.

1050

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man.

1051

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< First. lets be real clear, you damn sure intended offense and you gave it spades. To say you have argued any point in good faith is a flat out lie. Yes, it is. You mean offense and it was taken that way. If you say otherwise you are a liar. >>>[/quote]Then keep your pearls Pat and cease immediately from casting them before this wretched swine.
[/quote]

How about answering simple questions for one time in your life rather than dodging them? That would increase your standing tremendously. Good old fashion answers to questions. No ducking, no hiding, no avoidance, no spin, and no impassioned baseless diatribes.

I want you to sell me on your point of view. Convince me that the path you recommend is the right one. Don’t tell me you have because you haven’t all you did was point out how bad everybody else is, not what’s good about your beliefs and why I should join you.

Your methodology stinks. If I told you that should abandon your family and friends because they are a bunch of evil assholes, would you do it? That is what you have done here. And you wonder why we don’t just drop the faith? You need to check yourself, and need to present arguments that make sense. Not “This is wrong and you are speaking evil, repent!”
Sorry, you don’t have the pull. Answer the questions in good faith. Why is the RCC evil? I’ll give you a hint, your answer should start something like “The Catholic Church is evil because _____________.”

1052

Hey BC read this:

http://www.reformed.org/index.html

It’s uh, enlightening. And twisted.

1053

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man. [/quote]

All I am saying is that if you put things into motion just to see what happens then thatâ??s not a specific purpose. But I donâ??t believe that to be the case, I believe there is one, but I do not know what the purpose is. That’s one of my top questions for the Good Lord when I exit this life…

1054

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

After reading your comment we need to start a thread: “Non Christians don’t get it.”

And I guess they’re not supposed to get it. As I’ve sad multiple times, it’s about faith. As the Bible says “it is impossible to please God without faith.” Those who know not the Lord want proof and there will never be any proof, not the kind that you’re looking for. “Proof” is NOT pleasing to God. If there were proof then faith would not be needed and hence his statement would make no sense.

So, with that said all of this back and forth debate is pretty foolish isn’t it?[/quote]

You seem to confuse “thinking stupid things” with “having faith”. You can call it the second, but I can see when its the first.

Pat, at least, is making a good argument as to why (in his case) its faith, and not simply his parroting what the sunday school teacher said and defending it with “The magic book says so!!”

If more christians were like him I’d respect more christians. [/quote]

Here’s a clue for you, it doesn’t matter that atheists don’t respect “more Christians.” Faith is what it is. I’m glad Pat explained it for you and you respect him - that’s nice. But, in the scheme of things it doesn’t really matter who you respect. All that matters is your relationship to God. And that will always be about faith and as I’ve said many times, God is not some sort of scientific experiment where he can be placed in a box prodded and tested endlessly. He laughs at human intellect. I know that bothers you and I know you enjoy ridiculing a 2000 year old religion that people have much reverence and respect for. And you’ll have to ask yourself why so much hostility toward something that isn’t even real. I have my own ideas as to why so many atheists have to ridicule a God that they believe doesn’t even exist.

1055

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Trib,
I have been trying to affirm all that is true that you believe and point out that the practice of the Christian life is very similar between you and I, but there is one thing that I find truly repulsive about Calvinism, so I have one more question that I will pester you with. If it is pre-ordained as to who will be saved and who will not and in fact everything is pre-ordained, then did God ordain the fall of mankind? If He is sovreign in the way Calvinist/reformed churches teach that He is then it must be so, no? If you can straighten me out on this please do so, because if this is the reality that God ordained the fall of man, then… Please by all means explain to me how this fits.[/quote]Jake I believe the Lord would have me type this all out for at least the dozenth time just for you, but I’m gonna need a little time. For now I will tell you as I have these guys over and over that God did indeed render the fall of man unalterably certain without being guilty of sin and I have no idea how He did nor do I care anymore. I trust Him.
Yet again the Westminster divines in the great confession of 1646 ch. III sect. 1.

[quote]I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. [/quote]Does that make sense to my carnal nature? Nope, but just like that great body that spent 4 years hammering out these doctrines I see that THAT is indeed what saith the scriptures.

Here is a prime exhibit of what I’ve been dealing with. I give you my friend Christopher who, regardless of what He believes I actually do have a real heart for. My wife thinks He’s practically family by how much I talk about and pray for him.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Basically God commissioned evil. He made some men to do evil things…on purpose. That is Tirib’s God.[/quote]The bolded part is what appears to be a symptom of His terminal Thomism brought on by subjecting his already autonomous mind to an overdose of super developed further autonomy in the form of Catholic epistemology(Mr. Deep DEEP Grey). Hence he, being already enslaved since conception to his own mind, has forged 75 more feet of quasi naturalist chain with which to shackle himself yet more securely all the while yelling at me through the tightly coiled links about how free he is and how wrong I am. He does not, he CANNOT get it.

I hasten to clarify, this also for the 1000th time, that I too was conceived and born enslaved to my own mind and carnal nature and spent my 1st 20 years feeding it lavishly for which I almost paid with my life. Left to myself I doubt I would be here so I view myself as no better than anyone and much worse than many. The difference is. God. G.O.D. Not me. I was not and am not the deciding factor in my destiny or I would have perished in my filth. I am tellin you that when I read Calvin on sin it destroyed my self image. He makes no attempt to convince anybody of anything. He simply makes statements describing the exceeding sinfulness of sin and it’s effect on the human soul and then will say something like “and the heart which dwells richly in the light of His holiness and mercy KNOWS this to be the case”.

I looked myself in the eyes in the mirror in my then apartment, heart wide open and I knew he was tellin me the truth. I have never been the same. God used John Calvin to ruin my life and thereby begin it’s reconstruction. Van Til simply taught me how to think in that light.

I’ll read your page. You have my word. If you are at all interested in a classic Van Til piece of a different type, but still short and non technical check this: http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/index.html?mainframe=/apologetics/why_I_believe_cvt.html

EDIT:Jake, please do me a favor. I have read your link which is pretty much like many others I’ve read including one Chris already linked me to a while back. Here’s a tip. Try n find some where the heroes didn’t start as dispensationalists. A system of doctrine I disdain almost as much as Catholicism. Chris’s had this problem as well. There are some. I’ve read them too. I could grab some true heart wrenching stories of lifelong Catholics, including ordained clergy who tearfully escaped the clutches of Rome to find safety in the arms of the triumphant sovereign Christ, but haven’t and doubt if I will. Why? Because there are endless seemingly persuasive stories of proponents of EVERYthing converting to EVERYthing else. Always has been always will be. These poor folks had a sandy foundation to begin with and do further make a couple points I’ve been making here forever.
[/quote]
Point taken (about the dispensationalists, I don’t really like their theology either), and yes I understand that there are stories of conversion from everything to everything else, but I do think when sifting these stories a great deal can be understood from tone and the emotions of the author to the what they convert to and from.

I’ve read the Westminster Confession in it’s entirety actually and that part does not make sense. It’s like having your cake and eating it too. Now, I know that I don’t need to understand everything that God does or is, nor will I in this life, and I understand that God cannot be responsible for evil, so it seems the only way to make sense of this is that man has a will (granted him by God) that is free (in other words God does not, by His choice [though He could] force man to do anything) to do as he wishes (else love would not be love). Tragically, man did taint himself for all time by disobeying God and fell. You mentioned then that God is the deciding factor in saving you, which I agree with in a certain way, being that without Him you have no hope, but with Him you do (I just hold that He gives us right of refusal so to speak (free will). I know and understand that you do not agree with this, but this seeming contradition (I think it is a complete contradiction actually) that you quoted from the WC is the lynchpin that holds the whole of Calvinism together, without it, it all falls apart.

1056

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
[/quote]
Literal interpretations are problematic. I always recommend an unabated, uninhibited search for truth. Your issues are duly noted, but I think context and audience are huge factors. Who was this written for, what was the point of this piece, what is the message, etc.

Let’s take for instance the burnt offerings / animal sacrifices. These ancients were going to do that anyway, to some one or something. Early in the bible, it seems God spent a great deal of time on the first commandment.
Fine, you are going to do sacrifices, it better be to me. Rather than shooting lightening bolts out of his eyes, he took what they were doing and pushed it in his direction.
This stuff was written for some stubborn neanderthal boobs. They need info in ways they understand and force, they understood.[/quote]

I can appreciate that response to a point, and thank you for taking the time . And for all intents and purposes that is nearly the same reasoning my father, who is an elder in good standing, used as well in our discussions. However I believe if it is meant to also be a ‘timeless’ record of God’s dealings with and requirements for his creation, then the nature of the proposed histories, miracles, and justice or perceived lack thereof would be a bit more approachable to a modern culture. That is IF the intention of its writing was as believers often attest, to attract one to worship its author.

However I’m not so certain all would agree that that is the bible’s purpose, per se. Others have described it more as a touchstone to separate ‘wheat from chaff’ so to speak. For that purpose a certain amount of moral ambiguity and inexplicable character would serve the purpose of shaking lose the spiritually lazy or otherwise ‘unworthy’.

But if that is all it is, then it seems a bit grandiose and overwrought. One would think the designer of DNA would have a more concise, efficient, and consistent method for that type of ‘separation’. These are just my opinions from an admittedly limited perspective.

1057

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man. [/quote]

All I am saying is that if you put things into motion just to see what happens then thatâ??s not a specific purpose. But I donâ??t believe that to be the case, I believe there is one, but I do not know what the purpose is. That’s one of my top questions for the Good Lord when I exit this life…[/quote]

You’re confusing me a bit. Do you believe God had/has a specific intent for this universe?

1058

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man. [/quote]

All I am saying is that if you put things into motion just to see what happens then thatÃ?¢??s not a specific purpose. But I donÃ?¢??t believe that to be the case, I believe there is one, but I do not know what the purpose is. That’s one of my top questions for the Good Lord when I exit this life…[/quote]

You’re confusing me a bit. Do you believe God had/has a specific intent for this universe?[/quote]

LOL…as if the creator of all things has no grand plan! LMAO!

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I disagree. The debate can go on, but I will not belabor it. When you want to come back to it, I will be happy to oblige.[/quote]

Ok. What makes you believe that whatever created the universe had a specific intent?[/quote]

Well I am not certain if there was a specific intent. Only an intentional start. I can intentionally push a car down a hill, and not have any intent as to what it will do, except to see what happens.
I don’t know if that was what was intended or not, it could have a specified purpose and end, or it could be set into motion with a set of rules and then what happens, happens. [/quote]

But wouldnt an all knowing god need to have a specific intent?

If you knew exactly what would happen if you push the car, then I think its logical to infer that whatever happened must have been your intent.[/quote]

But it wasn’t ‘specific’!! :)[/quote]

You’ll have to clear that one up for me, man. [/quote]

All I am saying is that if you put things into motion just to see what happens then thatÃ?¢??s not a specific purpose. But I donÃ?¢??t believe that to be the case, I believe there is one, but I do not know what the purpose is. That’s one of my top questions for the Good Lord when I exit this life…[/quote]

You’re confusing me a bit. Do you believe God had/has a specific intent for this universe?[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t mean to. Yes, I believe has a specific intent, but I can’t prove it at all and I have no idea what the purpose could possibly be. Perhaps if I had some idea of purpose, I can make an argument for it. There is a a reason why things are the way they are, I just don’t know what it is…

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@Jake,
I’ll try to answer later. I’m not sure what I’m gonna do with Pat and Zeb made a point I wanted to address and I still owe Capped a response from the other day. I still need to watch Chris’s video which I have, but have just not gotten to. Sheesh.