Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]I am not taking sides, but then what do you do with 1 Peter 3:21 which was the trap that Chris set earlier on this page.
[/quote]
That scripture is clear: Baptism can save you as it is an overt act of faith ie one would not do it if one were NOT saved to begin with. [/quote]
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]
Then what do you say about 1 Peter 3:21 or Matthew 28:19 where Jesus tells them all to baptize all nations, if it was just a show only…what is making disciples and observation of everything Jesus commanded?[/quote]
I’ve explained that already. Now ask yourself this, if baptism was defacto salvation then anyone could jump into a tube of water and be saved. Salvation is born of the heart and expressed by the lips. Baptism is an indication of that saving grace.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
The new testament is surprisingly short and hardly takes a few hours to get through. It doesn’t take decades to get through…[/quote]
A few hours to get through and a lifetime to fully understand. But as a 20 year old I’m sure you know all about this.
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]I am not taking sides, but then what do you do with 1 Peter 3:21 which was the trap that Chris set earlier on this page.
[/quote]
That scripture is clear: Baptism can save you as it is an overt act of faith ie one would not do it if one were NOT saved to begin with. [/quote]
Then why do it if you are saved anyway?[/quote]
As an act of submission to God and also an overt public act to show your faith.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
<<<And they call this God loving. =/
When real parents burns their children for not worshiping them, these persons are labeled insane and imprisoned, but when GOD does it, it’s because he loves us and that’s okay.
Kinda like how an abusive husband really loves his wife and only beats her because he “loves” her.[/quote]I absolutely call this God loving. Here we go again folks. Comparing God with men. Right on schedule. God does not damn anybody He loves. He loves those He saves. Even Brother Chris’s Catholic friar who gave the homily that Chris himself posted understands this. Chris is probably sorry he ever put that thing in my hands, but our young friar there actually did a pretty solid job in that case.
[/quote]
God does not damn anybody he loves… BUT he created a whole bunch of people he hates, so he created them just to send them to hell. Since I am Catholic and predestined to go to hell according to Tirib, at least I have a whole bunch of really nice people that do not belong to his little tiny church in Michigan to hang with. Me and BC will start a sowing club I guess. I can hang with Gandhi, Blessed Mother Teresa and the good Pope John-Paul 2, too.
God created 6 billion people specifically to send them to hell, because that makes sense.
The young friar is going to hell too, by the way because his mind is just not narrow enough. I’ll grab a beer with him. The
Your mind is like a steel trap, closed.
[/quote]
There has been an estimated 50 billion people on this earth since humans came about.
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]
Then what do you say about 1 Peter 3:21 or Matthew 28:19 where Jesus tells them all to baptize all nations, if it was just a show only…what is making disciples and observation of everything Jesus commanded?[/quote]
I’ve explained that already. Now ask yourself this, if baptism was defacto salvation then anyone could jump into a tube of water and be saved. Salvation is born of the heart and expressed by the lips. Baptism is an indication of that saving grace. [/quote]
So baptism is just a cleaning off of the dirt on the body?
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Liberal professors?.. Okay o.O
Not only have I read the bible in its entirety, but I’ve read several translations of it.[/quote]
Oh? What was your favorite translation and why? or least favorite…Mostly interested in the why…[/quote]
Is this your best attempt at establishing that I don’t know the bible? Anyone could answer this question within 5 minutes via google.
I have a better idea, next time try to find an actual flaw in my arguement to establish my lack of biblical knowledge. [/quote]
You said you read several translations whole bible several times in it’s entirety, I want to know which translations and why you did not like them. Because I think you lied because you
don’t know what you talk about…But you can cut and paste like a mother fucker.
As far as I know, all you said, in very long prose is, that there is contradiction in the bible. I agree, I know there is. I don’t have to watch cartoons to figure that out.
A math book doesn’t often accurately define what an onomatopoeia is, but it has nothing to do with the purpose of the book or what the book actually is. Somebody who read the bible would know that.
You don’t have to like it, read it or anything. It’s not an issue to me. You’re entitled to your opinion. You think it’s bunk, then don’t waste your time with it. I couldn’t care less if I tried.[/quote]
If he’s 20 years old and has already read several versions of the Bible that means he must have begun at a very early age and read on a regular basis. And then when he was finished decided that all the reading was a waste because of certain contradictions. And those contradictions were only noticed after he was finished reading that one final version.
(clears throat) You think he’s lying huh?
[/quote]
I’m not an idiot. I know certain versions translates certain verses differently. It’s only logical that I look into them before debating about it.
FYI, the bible is actually a pretty easy book to get through (especially the new testiment). It hardly takes years to get through a few versions. [/quote]
If you dedicate some serious time to read several pages a day and have nothing else going on in your life you might be able to get through many versions of it in several years time. That is reading and understanding what you’ve read. But once again if you’re around 20 years old that means you got a sudden desire as a teenager to read several versions of the Bible and then at some point came to the conclusions that it was all just a big lie. Do you see why your story is hard to swallow?
I’d like to introduce you to a young man about your age named Ryan. Ryan is in college too, and the two of you seem to have quite a lot in common. You are both barely into your 20’s (if that) and you both know just about every dang thing there is to know. He has the economic system figured out and thinks that socialism is the way to go. And you? Well you have the universe figured out and know without question that there is no God and the Bible is wrong. Wow…you two guys are really shmart. (Eye Roll)
Isn’t the Internet wonderful? I wonder what you guys would be doing if there were no Internet? Probably just pissing off other guys your age who didn’t have anything else to do either.
Keep em coming kid you’re a real beauty!
[/quote]
Perhaps it would take YOU several years of no-lifing the bible to get through it, but then again you still think this shit is true! Personally, I find Steven King’s books to be more believable and harder to read through. [/quote]
Then why did Yale and Harvard both teach Paul’s writings as great acccurate works of literature long before there was an attack on God?
Tell me if you know everything at the age of 20 what do you have left to learn? Life is really going to be boring for the next 60 or 70 years isn’t it?
[/quote]
Yeah, you’ll notice that doesn’t happen anymore. Any guesses why? ;)[/quote]
I don’t have to guess I know why. The liberal University system trashed it. And you my boy are a product of that system. Therefore, you think the Bible is wrong without even having had read it.
Only one problem with your statement. You and I both know that you’ve never read it.
Uh huh.
[/quote]
No, the bible isn’t taught at any respectable University as a “great accurate work” because intellectuals see through the bullshit. On page ONE of genesis alone I can find 5 major problems. And it’s only downhill from there.
You know, just asserting I haven’t read it over and over again won’t make it so. Wanna prove I don’t know the bible? Debunk my argument. Here, I’ll reiterate; according to Mark Jesus was crucified Mid-morning on the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12/ 15:25), but John says Jesus was crucified After noon on the day before the Passover meal (John 19:14-16). So, who is right? Chris has failed to reconcile these passages, but surely someone as superior as yourself is up to the task.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
The new testament is surprisingly short and hardly takes a few hours to get through. It doesn’t take decades to get through…[/quote]
A few hours to get through and a lifetime to fully understand. But as a 20 year old I’m sure you know all about this.
[/quote]
As St. Augustine put it, “the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.” Gotta have the whole thing.
Matthew 5:18 says, “For Truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the last until all is accomplished.”
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
The new testament is surprisingly short and hardly takes a few hours to get through. It doesn’t take decades to get through…[/quote]
A few hours to get through and a lifetime to fully understand. But as a 20 year old I’m sure you know all about this.
[/quote]
Lol a lifetime to understand? This isn’t theoretical physics. The hardest part of the bible to understand is reading all the names given in the genealogy at the opening of the new testament and since that part translates out the same in every version it’s hardly significant.
I’m starting to think that YOU haven’t read the bible. You certainly are projecting as though.
=/
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]I am not taking sides, but then what do you do with 1 Peter 3:21 which was the trap that Chris set earlier on this page.
[/quote]
That scripture is clear: Baptism can save you as it is an overt act of faith ie one would not do it if one were NOT saved to begin with. [/quote]
Let’s talk about baptism for a minute, scripture uses it in several contexts and all of them are in the NT:
Baptism of suffering:
Mark 10:38
Jesus said to them, ‘You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?’
Luke 12:50
I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!
Baptism of grace:
Eph 4:7
But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Grace through Christian baptism:
1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Acts 19:5
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Bottom line, baptism is more than a formalized ritual. Be cautious of relying on rituals to save you. God is not a vending machine. You don’t just do a rain dance and automatically get rain.
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]I am not taking sides, but then what do you do with 1 Peter 3:21 which was the trap that Chris set earlier on this page.
[/quote]
That scripture is clear: Baptism can save you as it is an overt act of faith ie one would not do it if one were NOT saved to begin with. [/quote]
Then why do it if you are saved anyway?[/quote]
As an act of submission to God and also an overt public act to show your faith.
[/quote]
Correct… As Peter says, not a removal of dirt but an appeal to God’s grace.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
The new testament is surprisingly short and hardly takes a few hours to get through. It doesn’t take decades to get through…[/quote]
A few hours to get through and a lifetime to fully understand. But as a 20 year old I’m sure you know all about this.
[/quote]
As St. Augustine put it, “the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.” Gotta have the whole thing.
Matthew 5:18 says, “For Truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the last until all is accomplished.”[/quote]
Did you even look at the list of versions I’ve read? I sent you the list. I’ve read the old testament several times. Exactly what the hell are you trying to establish? That because the new testament is an easy read that means I’ve never read the OT? How does that follow.
Also, I thought you weren’t going to talk to me anymore? Or by that did you mean you would only make back-handed posts relative to me but not directly posted to me? You Christians and your cowardly semantics… =/
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
<<<And they call this God loving. =/
When real parents burns their children for not worshiping them, these persons are labeled insane and imprisoned, but when GOD does it, it’s because he loves us and that’s okay.
Kinda like how an abusive husband really loves his wife and only beats her because he “loves” her.[/quote]I absolutely call this God loving. Here we go again folks. Comparing God with men. Right on schedule. God does not damn anybody He loves. He loves those He saves. Even Brother Chris’s Catholic friar who gave the homily that Chris himself posted understands this. Chris is probably sorry he ever put that thing in my hands, but our young friar there actually did a pretty solid job in that case.
[/quote]
God does not damn anybody he loves… BUT he created a whole bunch of people he hates, so he created them just to send them to hell. Since I am Catholic and predestined to go to hell according to Tirib, at least I have a whole bunch of really nice people that do not belong to his little tiny church in Michigan to hang with. Me and BC will start a sowing club I guess. I can hang with Gandhi, Blessed Mother Teresa and the good Pope John-Paul 2, too.
God created 6 billion people specifically to send them to hell, because that makes sense.
The young friar is going to hell too, by the way because his mind is just not narrow enough. I’ll grab a beer with him. The
Your mind is like a steel trap, closed.
[/quote]
There has been an estimated 50 billion people on this earth since humans came about.[/quote]
And only 144,000 can be saved. Damn, we’re screwed.
" The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: "
Water baptism saves us in the sense that it is an obedient expression of our repentance and faith in Christ and of our commitment to come out of the world. it is our confession and pledge that we belong to christ and have died and risen with Him (Rom. 6:3-5; Gal. 3:27; Cil. 2:12; cf. Acts 2:38-39). Note the comparison with the flood (I Pt. 3:20): just as Noah’s observing God’s instructions regarding the flood was a testimony to his faith before the flood, so going through the waters of baptism is a testimony to our faith that brought salvation through Christ before we were baptized.
From the final words of I Peter 3:20 Peter launched into a discussion of water baptism and made it clear that baptism, like the Flood, is only a “figure” (Gk. antiupon, counterpart, representation; as in Hebrews 9:24, “Which are the figures of the true”). It takes more than washing in water (“the putting away of the filth of the flesh”) to cleanse from sin. There are various views about the meaning of the phrase “saved by water,” but all agree that it is not the water itself which saves, but Christ, who is symbolized by the ark. Cleansing comes by the shed blood of the Son of God. “Answer” (Gk. eperotema, inquiry) is a word the Romans used of the senate’s approval after inquiry into a matter. God looks beyon the act of baptism and searches to se whether the believer has truly repented and dedicated his life to divine service.
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]
Then what do you say about 1 Peter 3:21 or Matthew 28:19 where Jesus tells them all to baptize all nations, if it was just a show only…what is making disciples and observation of everything Jesus commanded?[/quote]
I’ve explained that already. Now ask yourself this, if baptism was defacto salvation then anyone could jump into a tube of water and be saved. Salvation is born of the heart and expressed by the lips. Baptism is an indication of that saving grace. [/quote]
So baptism is just a cleaning off of the dirt on the body? [/quote]
That is not at all what I said. But I suppose it does get some dirt off.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Liberal professors?.. Okay o.O
Not only have I read the bible in its entirety, but I’ve read several translations of it.[/quote]
Oh? What was your favorite translation and why? or least favorite…Mostly interested in the why…[/quote]
Is this your best attempt at establishing that I don’t know the bible? Anyone could answer this question within 5 minutes via google.
I have a better idea, next time try to find an actual flaw in my arguement to establish my lack of biblical knowledge. [/quote]
You said you read several translations whole bible several times in it’s entirety, I want to know which translations and why you did not like them. Because I think you lied because you
don’t know what you talk about…But you can cut and paste like a mother fucker.
As far as I know, all you said, in very long prose is, that there is contradiction in the bible. I agree, I know there is. I don’t have to watch cartoons to figure that out.
A math book doesn’t often accurately define what an onomatopoeia is, but it has nothing to do with the purpose of the book or what the book actually is. Somebody who read the bible would know that.
You don’t have to like it, read it or anything. It’s not an issue to me. You’re entitled to your opinion. You think it’s bunk, then don’t waste your time with it. I couldn’t care less if I tried.[/quote]
If he’s 20 years old and has already read several versions of the Bible that means he must have begun at a very early age and read on a regular basis. And then when he was finished decided that all the reading was a waste because of certain contradictions. And those contradictions were only noticed after he was finished reading that one final version.
(clears throat) You think he’s lying huh?
[/quote]
I’m not an idiot. I know certain versions translates certain verses differently. It’s only logical that I look into them before debating about it.
FYI, the bible is actually a pretty easy book to get through (especially the new testiment). It hardly takes years to get through a few versions. [/quote]
If you dedicate some serious time to read several pages a day and have nothing else going on in your life you might be able to get through many versions of it in several years time. That is reading and understanding what you’ve read. But once again if you’re around 20 years old that means you got a sudden desire as a teenager to read several versions of the Bible and then at some point came to the conclusions that it was all just a big lie. Do you see why your story is hard to swallow?
I’d like to introduce you to a young man about your age named Ryan. Ryan is in college too, and the two of you seem to have quite a lot in common. You are both barely into your 20’s (if that) and you both know just about every dang thing there is to know. He has the economic system figured out and thinks that socialism is the way to go. And you? Well you have the universe figured out and know without question that there is no God and the Bible is wrong. Wow…you two guys are really shmart. (Eye Roll)
Isn’t the Internet wonderful? I wonder what you guys would be doing if there were no Internet? Probably just pissing off other guys your age who didn’t have anything else to do either.
Keep em coming kid you’re a real beauty!
[/quote]
Perhaps it would take YOU several years of no-lifing the bible to get through it, but then again you still think this shit is true! Personally, I find Steven King’s books to be more believable and harder to read through. [/quote]
Then why did Yale and Harvard both teach Paul’s writings as great acccurate works of literature long before there was an attack on God?
Tell me if you know everything at the age of 20 what do you have left to learn? Life is really going to be boring for the next 60 or 70 years isn’t it?
[/quote]
Yeah, you’ll notice that doesn’t happen anymore. Any guesses why? ;)[/quote]
I don’t have to guess I know why. The liberal University system trashed it. And you my boy are a product of that system. Therefore, you think the Bible is wrong without even having had read it.
Only one problem with your statement. You and I both know that you’ve never read it.
Uh huh.
[/quote]
No, the bible isn’t taught at any respectable University as a “great accurate work” because intellectuals see through the bullshit. On page ONE of genesis alone I can find 5 major problems. And it’s only downhill from there.[/quote]
Funny the intellectuals you speak have only found problems over the past 40 years. For several hundred years prior to that it was pretty much standard curriculum. You better study up on history junior. My guess is that this, like many institutions, is a victim of political correctness. Just like you are.
And claiming that you’ve read it over and over again won’t make it so. You’ve shown a shallowness regarding the scriptures that can only be explained by one of two things: the first and most obvious, you’ve never read the Bible from cover to cover as you claim. The second, you have read it and you don’t understand what you’ve read. There are no other explanations for your posts.
I’d much rather you prove that you did read it.
The Peoples New Testament, and Robertson’s Word Pictures in the N.T. both take the view that John was using Roman time rather than Hebrew time. Most probably, John was using the Roman measurement of time when dealing with the crucifixion. Matthew, Mark, and Luke, for the most part, used the Hebrew system of measuring a day: from sundown to sunup. The Roman system was from midnight to midnight. "John wrote his gospel in Ephesus, the capital of the Roman province of Asia, and therefore in regard to the civil day he would be likely to employ the Roman reckoning
Now let’s suppose that the above answer is incorrect - Give me then your explanation. Are you saying that people made up the story? And if so why would they make up a work with such a seeming flaw? Why not bother to create a story that is perfect in every way to even the untrained eye such as yours? Why leave themselves open to be critiqued by the masses with such a flaw? Would it not have been quite easy to simply write the same time in each gospel? I mean really…if this were a hoax why get everything else right and leave this? Or, the explanation that I’ve given you is correct and there is a discrepancy regarding the interpretation of time based upon the reason above.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
You Christians and your cowardly semantics… =/[/quote]
As he hides behind a keyboard and an anonymous name and attacks our religion. You gotta love the Internet. It makes the weak strong and the truly cowardly brave.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
<<<And they call this God loving. =/
When real parents burns their children for not worshiping them, these persons are labeled insane and imprisoned, but when GOD does it, it’s because he loves us and that’s okay.
Kinda like how an abusive husband really loves his wife and only beats her because he “loves” her.[/quote]I absolutely call this God loving. Here we go again folks. Comparing God with men. Right on schedule. God does not damn anybody He loves. He loves those He saves. Even Brother Chris’s Catholic friar who gave the homily that Chris himself posted understands this. Chris is probably sorry he ever put that thing in my hands, but our young friar there actually did a pretty solid job in that case.
[/quote]
God does not damn anybody he loves… BUT he created a whole bunch of people he hates, so he created them just to send them to hell. Since I am Catholic and predestined to go to hell according to Tirib, at least I have a whole bunch of really nice people that do not belong to his little tiny church in Michigan to hang with. Me and BC will start a sowing club I guess. I can hang with Gandhi, Blessed Mother Teresa and the good Pope John-Paul 2, too.
God created 6 billion people specifically to send them to hell, because that makes sense.
The young friar is going to hell too, by the way because his mind is just not narrow enough. I’ll grab a beer with him. The
Your mind is like a steel trap, closed.
[/quote]
There has been an estimated 50 billion people on this earth since humans came about.[/quote]
And only 144,000 can be saved. Damn, we’re screwed.[/quote]
" The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: "
Water baptism saves us in the sense that it is an obedient expression of our repentance and faith in Christ and of our commitment to come out of the world. it is our confession and pledge that we belong to christ and have died and risen with Him (Rom. 6:3-5; Gal. 3:27; Cil. 2:12; cf. Acts 2:38-39). Note the comparison with the flood (I Pt. 3:20): just as Noah’s observing God’s instructions regarding the flood was a testimony to his faith before the flood, so going through the waters of baptism is a testimony to our faith that brought salvation through Christ before we were baptized.
From the final words of I Peter 3:20 Peter launched into a discussion of water baptism and made it clear that baptism, like the Flood, is only a “figure” (Gk. antiupon, counterpart, representation; as in Hebrews 9:24, “Which are the figures of the true”). It takes more than washing in water (“the putting away of the filth of the flesh”) to cleanse from sin. There are various views about the meaning of the phrase “saved by water,” but all agree that it is not the water itself which saves, but Christ, who is symbolized by the ark. Cleansing comes by the shed blood of the Son of God. “Answer” (Gk. eperotema, inquiry) is a word the Romans used of the senate’s approval after inquiry into a matter. God looks beyon the act of baptism and searches to se whether the believer has truly repented and dedicated his life to divine service.[/quote]
Yes, I agree completely…but not to your extended meanings that baptism doesn’t have grace, baptism is the new circumcision without hands. Baptism is needed, now if believing in God and knowing the truth was in fact what brought salvation, God would have to extend salvation to Satan and the demons. They know God probably better than us, they hate him, but they know him. They also know the Bible and tradition and much more better than us.
You or the person representing you in the case of infant baptism has to have the faith otherwise there is nothing there it is just a bath (because you don’t believe what it is), before a Catholic is baptized, questions are asked to all to make sure they have the faith.
This is why Paul tells us that initial grace (baptism) and [initial] justification is by faith apart from works. No works are needed for initial grace (baptism) just faith.
This however doesn’t mean that works aren’t needed after baptism.
Yes I do believe baptism is essential for salvation. But the man in the article doesn’t seem like he believes in Christ nor was baptized (I don’t know, it didn’t say).
So if he doesn’t believe and is not baptized, he has not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So according to scriptures, he is on a path to hell.[/quote]
No where in the Christian Bible does it say that baptism is needed for salvation. Rather it is a public act of faith which shows the rest of the community, Christian and otherwise, that you are in fact now a Christian. It’s really more an act of submission. [/quote]
Then what do you say about 1 Peter 3:21 or Matthew 28:19 where Jesus tells them all to baptize all nations, if it was just a show only…what is making disciples and observation of everything Jesus commanded?[/quote]
I’ve explained that already. Now ask yourself this, if baptism was defacto salvation then anyone could jump into a tube of water and be saved. Salvation is born of the heart and expressed by the lips. Baptism is an indication of that saving grace. [/quote]
So baptism is just a cleaning off of the dirt on the body? [/quote]
That is not at all what I said. But I suppose it does get some dirt off.[/quote]
I remember I was listening to a old black lady I work with at the local food bank cleans the 1st Colored Baptist of Flagstaff building twice a week and she was talking about how there was a ring around the baptismal tub/font and that people need to give their kids baths before they come get baptized. She gave me the dirtiest look when I started laughing.
