Bible Contradictions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
421

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You’re contradicting yourself. I think you know this, and it is a copout to dismiss the contradiction with a blithe “it all resolves itself in Him”. >>>[/quote] This is beginning to wear me out. Have I not said… repeatedly that that is precisely the view unbelievers are supposed to take? Even using that very word referring to myself from your vantage point? Copout?[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You can’t have it both ways. You insist that we aren’t puppets, then you make statements like this: >>>[/quote]Not being a worshiper of human intellect, yes I can.[quote]forlife wrote:You’re saying that God made up your mind for you. He pulled your strings, but left others to their horrible fate. If God implanted the desire to embrace Him, how is that free will? >>>[/quote]By the definition of arrogant sinful men who cannot conceive of a truth that effects them being out of their intellectual grasp? It isn’t.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Even people in your own Calvinist tradition disagree with you.>>>[/quote]Who?[quote]forlife wrote:
In Matthew 5, Jesus didn’t say to love some of your enemies and hate others. He said we should be like the Father, who sends the sun to all, including the just and the unjust. You cite the old testament to prove that God hates sinners, but Jesus specifically countermanded the old law that we should seek an eye for an eye, giving us a new commandment to turn the other cheek. His gospel is about love, not hate. His life and example are about love, not hate. He commanded us to be like the Father, who is about love, not hate.
[/quote]Don’t preach at me man LOL! I made one comment that your raw intellectual grasp of the gospel exceeded what I originally perceived and now you’re poundin a pulpit at me. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the risen only begotten Son of the God of all creation through whose blood and resurrection alone men are reconciled to the Father? Please answer that question with a simple yes or no. Should be easy.
[/quote]

Case in point, how can this fag tell me anything! He’s a SINNER!!! He can’t know anything about faith.
The lesson you should learn is how fragile faith really is. He was there and he lost it. Because of sin? I doubt it.

422

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< I fundamentally disagree with what you are selling as the message of Jesus. It is degrading, it robs men of free will, and it smacks of elitism clothed in false humility.[/quote]So what? wadda you care?

EDIT. I reread this post and felt a bit of further clarification is in order. What difference does it make to someone who denies the gospel what that gospel actually is? Why are you sitting over there, having renounced the Lord God and His Christ, pretending to be an apologist for His Word? Declaring the same errors BTW that are rampant among many claiming His name in this post modern age. Why? Why not simply own your new life and forget that awful time when you were trying to deny who you were with religious fluff? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not telling to go away and I promise you before my God that I have nothing personally against you whatsoever. I’m really wondering.

423

Pat, I really hope one day we meet in real life. Maybe Pittypat’s Porch will actually happen. You really don’t get it. I honestly am not jabbing you with that, but it is what it is.

424

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You’re contradicting yourself. I think you know this, and it is a copout to dismiss the contradiction with a blithe “it all resolves itself in Him”. >>>[/quote] This is beginning to wear me out. Have I not said… repeatedly that that is precisely the view unbelievers are supposed to take? Even using that very word referring to myself from your vantage point? Copout?[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You can’t have it both ways. You insist that we aren’t puppets, then you make statements like this: >>>[/quote]Not being a worshiper of human intellect, yes I can.[quote]forlife wrote:You’re saying that God made up your mind for you. He pulled your strings, but left others to their horrible fate. If God implanted the desire to embrace Him, how is that free will? >>>[/quote]By the definition of arrogant sinful men who cannot conceive of a truth that effects them being out of their intellectual grasp? It isn’t.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Even people in your own Calvinist tradition disagree with you.>>>[/quote]Who?[quote]forlife wrote:
In Matthew 5, Jesus didn’t say to love some of your enemies and hate others. He said we should be like the Father, who sends the sun to all, including the just and the unjust. You cite the old testament to prove that God hates sinners, but Jesus specifically countermanded the old law that we should seek an eye for an eye, giving us a new commandment to turn the other cheek. His gospel is about love, not hate. His life and example are about love, not hate. He commanded us to be like the Father, who is about love, not hate.
[/quote]Don’t preach at me man LOL! I made one comment that your raw intellectual grasp of the gospel exceeded what I originally perceived and now you’re poundin a pulpit at me. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the risen only begotten Son of the God of all creation through whose blood and resurrection alone men are reconciled to the Father? Please answer that question with a simple yes or no. Should be easy.
[/quote]

Case in point, how can this fag tell me anything! He’s a SINNER!!! He can’t know anything about faith.
The lesson you should learn is how fragile faith really is. He was there and he lost it. Because of sin? I doubt it. [/quote]

He chose homosexuality over his faith. When we really, really want something we (as human beings) rationalize a way to get it. If someone wants to dance with the pretty girl but she won’t even look at him the guy thinks “well she’s kinda fat anyway and I don’t like her hair.” They then feel better for not being able to dance with the best looking girl at the dance. In forlifes case he had the hots for other guys. He prayed (according to forlife) for these urges to go away and they didn’t. Therefore, he rationalized that there probably isn’t a God anyway so he might just as well leave his wife and two young children and live the life of a gay blade…and he did.

I can empathize with forlife, I too have prayed for something which has not yet materialized. But instead of rationalizing God out of existence I accept the answer as being no, at least not right now anyway. Hence, I use my God given will power to keep the faith and trudge on in less than perfect circumstances. Knowing that God knows what I need and when I need it - That is called faith

We are all born sinners. After that it is a matter of prayer and control. Forlife chose to cave into his abnormal fleshy desires. Many heterosexuals cave as well in the form of cheating on their spouse, stealing, violence etc. The list of sins are pretty lengthy.

425

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< And, what is that core. [/quote]
Blacksheep wrote this a while back in the Trinity thread:

[quote]I John 1:3

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

“Fellowship” (Gk. koinonia) literally means “having in common” and involves sharing and participation. Christians have fellowship because they have a common faith (Titus 1:4; Jude 3), common grace of God in Christ (I Cor. 1:9; Phil. 1:7), common indwelling of the Spirit (John 20:22; Rom. 8:9-11), common gifts of the Spirit (Rom. 15:27), and a common enemy (I John 2:15-18; I Pet. 5:8). There can be no true fellowship with those who reject the teaching of N.T. faith.

II John 7-11

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him good speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”

John warns that many deceivers and false teachers are perverting God’s Word and attempting to persuade Christians to accept their views. Christians should be aware of being indoctrinated by cultists. Their false teaching concerns the person of Jesus Christ. They deny that Jesus Christ was the eternal and only begotten Son of God, born of the virgin (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:27), whose blood provides forgiveness for the sins of all who believe (I John 2:2; 4:9-10) and who is “the true God, and eternal life” (I John 5:20).

Galatians 1:9

“As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

The word “accursed” (Gk. anathema) means that one lies under the curse of God, is doomed to destruction, and will receive God’s wrath and damnation. (1) The apostle Paul reveals the Holy Spirit’s inspired attitude of judgment and indignation toward those who attempt to distort the original gospel of Christ (Gal. 1:7) and to change the truth of apostolic witness. This same attitude was evident in Jesus Christ (Matt. 23:13), Peter (II Pet. 2), John (II John 7-11), and Jude (Jude 3-4, 12-19), and will be found in the heart of every follower of Christ who loves the gospel of Christ as revealed in God’s Word and who believes that it is the indispensable good news of salvation for a world lost in sin (Rom. 10:14-15)

(2) Accursed are all those who preach a gospel contrary to the message that Paul preached, as revealed to him by Christ (Gal. 1:6, 11-12). Anyone adding to or taking away from the original and fundamental gospel of Christ and the apostles stands under the curse of God; “God shall take away his part out of the book of life” (Rev. 22:18-19).

(3) God commands believers to defend the faith (Jude 3), to correct in love (II Tim. 2:25-26), and to separate themselves from teachers, ministers, and others in the church who deny fundamental Bible truths taught by Jesus and the apostles (Gal. 1:8-9; Rom. 16: 17-18; II Cor. 6:17). These truths include:

(a) The deity of Christ and His virgin birth Matt. 1:23; John 20:28);
(b) The full inspiration and authority of God’s Word in all it teaches (II Tim. 3:16-17);
(c) The historicity of the fall of Adam (Rom. 5:12-19);
(d) The inherent corruption of human nature (Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 1:21-32; 3:10-18; 7:14, 21);
(e) The lostness of mankind without Christ (Acts 4:12; Rom. 1:16-32; 10:13-15);
(f) Salvation by faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour through His death and blood atonement (Rom. 3:24-25; 5:10);
(g) The bodily resurrection of Christ (Matt. 28:6; I Cor. 10:1);
(h) The historical reality of miracles in both the O.T. and N.T. (I Cor. 10:1);
(i) The reality of Satan and demons as spiritual beings (Matt. 4:1; 8:28; II Cor. 4:4; Eph. 2:2; 6:11-18; I Pet. 5:8);
(j) The Biblical teaching about hell (Mat. 10:28);
(k) The literal return of Jesus Christ to earth (John 14:3; Acts 1:11; ! Cor. 1:7).

Any teachings, doctrines, or ideas originating from persons, churches, or traditions and not expressed or implied in God’s Word, may not be included in the gospel of Christ (Gal. 1:11). To mix them with the original content of the gospel is to "pervert the gospel of Christ (Gal. 1:7). [/quote]

426

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pat, I really hope one day we meet in real life. Maybe Pittypat’s Porch will actually happen. You really don’t get it. I honestly am not jabbing you with that, but it is what it is. [/quote]

Come on over…I have a gym in the basement. Pitty Pat’s porch is in downtown, next to the Fox. I prefer Taco Mac. If you are in to fine dining there are better places.

The biggest problem we have is that YOU have chosen to insult my faith; in absence of reason or fact. I expect it from atheists and such, but those who claim to be faithful should not be so obtuse.

If you want fundamentalism, we have factions of that in our church as well. They think that if you ain’t Catholic you’re going to hell. They think that protestants are abominations before God in that they have betrayed Christ’s one church. I disagree, I think they are worse than their own declarations. I think they will see the kingdom long after those who they condemn if they refuse to see the truth and repent for it.

People do wrong, people have done wrong in the name of what ever faith’s they proclaim to behold but it does not invalidate the whole faith. The faith is invalid if the core tenants are about anything other than God.

427

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

/thread

428

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

/thread

[/quote]

So, I google “answers to contradictions” or some such site and POOF like magic all of the perceived contradictions are gone.

Internet debates are fun huh? The ones you don’t have are even more fun.

429

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

/thread

[/quote]

So, I google “answers to contradictions” or some such site and POOF like magic all of the perceived contradictions are gone.

Internet debates are fun huh? The ones you don’t have are even more fun.
[/quote]

Yeah, those suppossed answers are little more than dancing around semantics. Here’s something for you; why did god make us with foreskins if he wanted them removed? Why not just make us without foreskins?

430

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

/thread

[/quote]

So, I google “answers to contradictions” or some such site and POOF like magic all of the perceived contradictions are gone.

Internet debates are fun huh? The ones you don’t have are even more fun.
[/quote]

Yeah, those suppossed answers are little more than dancing around semantics.[/quote]

That is YOUR perception of the answers. To most people, including the 100’s of thousands of well educated Bible scholars for over 2000 years those answers are pretty darn good.

I have a better question for you. Why did God make a male’s testicles (the most sensitive part of a mans body) to hang outside, in front (no less) of his body?

431

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< I fundamentally disagree with what you are selling as the message of Jesus. It is degrading, it robs men of free will, and it smacks of elitism clothed in false humility.[/quote]So what? wadda you care?

EDIT. I reread this post and felt a bit of further clarification is in order. What difference does it make to someone who denies the gospel what that gospel actually is? Why are you sitting over there, having renounced the Lord God and His Christ, pretending to be an apologist for His Word? Declaring the same errors BTW that are rampant among many claiming His name in this post modern age. Why? Why not simply own your new life and forget that awful time when you were trying to deny who you were with religious fluff? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not telling to go away and I promise you before my God that I have nothing personally against you whatsoever. I’m really wondering.[/quote]

That’s a fair question. And I appreciate the edit, because I was prepared to dismiss your original response as a trite evasion of my concerns.

  1. I am an agnostic, not an atheist. Yes, we really do exist. I doubt there is a God, but I think it’s possible there is one, and would be dishonest if I claimed otherwise. My entire life, I have felt a connection to something greater than myself. I look at the universe and sense an incredible underlying beauty to it all that I can’t explain. I believe very deeply in Love as the unifying purpose of life, whether or not it is personified in a divine being.

  2. I am genuinely concerned by the capacity I see in religious fundamentalists to justify any atrocity in the name of their God. I posted on this earlier today and won’t repeat myself, except to say that a great deal of evil has been done in the world, in the name of religion. And not all of that evil has come from charlatans…many zealously believed that their acts were righteous, despite the damage they did to others. Not to say that all religion is bad. To the contrary, I’ve seen religion do a lot of good. But when I see people willing to define morality as “anything my God commands”, rather than by what actually contributes to the happiness of others, I feel the need to speak against it.

432

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

/thread

[/quote]

So, I google “answers to contradictions” or some such site and POOF like magic all of the perceived contradictions are gone.

Internet debates are fun huh? The ones you don’t have are even more fun.
[/quote]

Yeah, those suppossed answers are little more than dancing around semantics.[/quote]

That is YOUR perception of the answers. To most people, including the 100’s of thousands of well educated Bible scholars for over 2000 years those answers are pretty darn good.

I have a better question for you. Why did God make a male’s testicles (the most sensitive part of a mans body) to hang outside, in front (not less) of his body?

[/quote]

Wait… you mean the very persons who have everything to gain from having millions of Christians throw their money at them for a sense of meaning actually APROVE of their own answers they give to keep their own psychotic illusions going? Wow, such strong testimony…

You totally ignored my question. God knows everything, right? So why would he make us with foreskin knowing ahead of time that he didn’t like it? Perhaps god just doesn’t know everything after all. But wait, why not just magically make foreskins non-existant? Perhaps god is not all powerfull either?

It seems your god has some rather embarrassing limitations for a so-called “all-powerfull” being to have. =/

433

I have not read all 18 pages of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been addressed. Is there any scientific/biological evidence that Adam and Eve existed? It seems to me that there is just an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests they didn’t exist. And the creation depicted in Genesis seems like just another ridiculous creation myth to me, just like the hundreds of other ones that cultures have.

434

Stated,

“…Here’s something for you; why did god make us with foreskins if he wanted them removed? Why not just make us without foreskins?”

Circumcision was to be a sign of God’s covenant with Abraham and his offspring (Gen. 17:11). It identified a man as an Israelite. It was a sign or mark that they had accepted God’s covenant and God Himself as their lord. It was a seal (to validate) the righteousness they had by faith (Rom. 4:11). It was to remind the people of God’s promises to them and their own personal obligations of the covenant (Gen. 17:14).

435

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

Wait… you mean the very persons who have everything to gain from having millions of Christians throw their money at them for a sense of meaning actually APROVE of their own answers they give to keep their own psychotic illusions going? Wow, such strong testimony.[/quote]

Oh I don’t know about that -There have been a lot of bright people both with something to gain and with nothing to gain looking closely at the scriptures and coming to the same conclusions. And it also works the other way as well. many famous detractors and atheists are selling books/CD’s/DVD’s and doing seminars. If one side is being accused of intellectual dishonesty I think it’s only fair to look at the other side as well. The scriptures speak for themselves. They’ve survived a lot of stone throwing from others just like you and here we are in 2011 and they’re still there.

Wow, and you totally ignored my question about the testicles. And also what’s up with the appendix? It’s either needed or it isn’t. If it isn’t needed why is it there? And I’m not all that happy about little toes as long as we’re on the topic of how we are created. Why is it every time I get up in the middle of the night to get a drink of water I stub that little toe? Why not the big toe it can take it far better than the little one. Okay, someone stop me before I get into why hair has to fall out—I don’t know…

I apologize for engaging you to begin with. I’m not the guy that is going to defend God to someone who neither knows him nor wants to know him. I’ve done this gig with atheists before (right here on T Nation) and found that regardless of any evidence which I may bring to the debate it is never good enough. It really does come down to faith. I will never be able to prove the existence of God. That’s why the Bible talks about faith as being so important. I know, you don’t accept this. But that is the finest and best answer that I can give you. Foreskins, belly buttons, testicles and appendixes aside, what’s the point? We go back and forth for 20 pages and then what? I have not changed my mind and you probably won’t change yours either - I’d rather fight about politics IF I felt like fighting. God? Well, I’ll leave you to him, just the two of you.

There are a myriad of things that you and I don’t know. Those who pretend to know everything will most likely be the most upset when all is said and done.

Until then if you are bitter about life try not to be (some atheists are some are not). Things have a way of turning around if you trudge on and keep the faith…err in your case there is no faith to keep so just keep trudging.

All the best,

Zeb

PS- You should try baiting Trib with some of this stuff he might bite. If not him try Brother Chris he’s always game. But me…I’m sick of it.

436

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“…Here’s something for you; why did god make us with foreskins if he wanted them removed? Why not just make us without foreskins?”

Circumcision was to be a sign of God’s covenant with Abraham and his offspring (Gen. 17:11). It identified a man as an Israelite. It was a sign or mark that they had accepted God’s covenant and God Himself as their lord. It was a seal (to validate) the righteousness they had by faith (Rom. 4:11). It was to remind the people of God’s promises to them and their own personal obligations of the covenant (Gen. 17:14). [/quote]

Oh man, are you ever going to be sorry you said that. It’s like feeding a stray he’ll just keep coming back for more. You ready for 10 pages of this nonsense?

LOL-- Have fun my friend.

437

[quote]Brian14 wrote:
I have not read all 18 pages of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been addressed. Is there any scientific/biological evidence that Adam and Eve existed? It seems to me that there is just an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests they didn’t exist. And the creation depicted in Genesis seems like just another ridiculous creation myth to me, just like the hundreds of other ones that cultures have. [/quote]
What is this ‘overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests they didn’t exist’? Humans had to begin at some point and with a mating pair. There’s some evidence that they existed.

You can have your opinion about the creation story in Genesis, but your statement about there being so much evidence that they didn’t exist is just ridiculous.

438

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“…Here’s something for you; why did god make us with foreskins if he wanted them removed? Why not just make us without foreskins?”

Circumcision was to be a sign of God’s covenant with Abraham and his offspring (Gen. 17:11). It identified a man as an Israelite. It was a sign or mark that they had accepted God’s covenant and God Himself as their lord. It was a seal (to validate) the righteousness they had by faith (Rom. 4:11). It was to remind the people of God’s promises to them and their own personal obligations of the covenant (Gen. 17:14). [/quote]

I guess matching tatoos were just too main-stream for god. =/

Alright, not bad. Let’s delve into something a little harder now. How do you reconcile the contradictions within the bible on Jesus’ timeline?

439

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

Wait… you mean the very persons who have everything to gain from having millions of Christians throw their money at them for a sense of meaning actually APROVE of their own answers they give to keep their own psychotic illusions going? Wow, such strong testimony.[/quote]

Oh I don’t know about that -There have been a lot of bright people both with something to gain and with nothing to gain looking closely at the scriptures and coming to the same conclusions. And it also works the other way as well. many famous detractors and atheists are selling books/CD’s/DVD’s and doing seminars. If one side is being accused of intellectual dishonesty I think it’s only fair to look at the other side as well. The scriptures speak for themselves. They’ve survived a lot of stone throwing from others just like you and here we are in 2011 and they’re still there.

Wow, and you totally ignored my question about the testicles. And also what’s up with the appendix? It’s either needed or it isn’t. If it isn’t needed why is it there? And I’m not all that happy about little toes as long as we’re on the topic of how we are created. Why is it every time I get up in the middle of the night to get a drink of water I stub that little toe? Why not the big toe it can take it far better than the little one. Okay, someone stop me before I get into why hair has to fall out—I don’t know…

I apologize for engaging you to begin with. I’m not the guy that is going to defend God to someone who neither knows him nor wants to know him. I’ve done this gig with atheists before (right here on T Nation) and found that regardless of any evidence which I may bring to the debate it is never good enough. It really does come down to faith. I will never be able to prove the existence of God. That’s why the Bible talks about faith as being so important. I know, you don’t accept this. But that is the finest and best answer that I can give you. Foreskins, belly buttons, testicles and appendixes aside, what’s the point? We go back and forth for 20 pages and then what? I have not changed my mind and you probably won’t change yours either - I’d rather fight about politics IF I felt like fighting. God? Well, I’ll leave you to him, just the two of you.

There are a myriad of things that you and I don’t know. Those who pretend to know everything will most likely be the most upset when all is said and done.

Until then if you are bitter about life try not to be (some atheists are some are not). Things have a way of turning around if you trudge on and keep the faith…err in your case there is no faith to keep so just keep trudging.

All the best,

Zeb

PS- You should try baiting Trib with some of this stuff he might bite. If not him try Brother Chris he’s always game. But me…I’m sick of it.[/quote]

What is all this? There’s no need to ramble so much, if you no longer wish to engage, that’s fine. I’m not going to “shame” you to death.

440

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You’re contradicting yourself. I think you know this, and it is a copout to dismiss the contradiction with a blithe “it all resolves itself in Him”. >>>[/quote] This is beginning to wear me out. Have I not said… repeatedly that that is precisely the view unbelievers are supposed to take? Even using that very word referring to myself from your vantage point? Copout?[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You can’t have it both ways. You insist that we aren’t puppets, then you make statements like this: >>>[/quote]Not being a worshiper of human intellect, yes I can.[quote]forlife wrote:You’re saying that God made up your mind for you. He pulled your strings, but left others to their horrible fate. If God implanted the desire to embrace Him, how is that free will? >>>[/quote]By the definition of arrogant sinful men who cannot conceive of a truth that effects them being out of their intellectual grasp? It isn’t.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Even people in your own Calvinist tradition disagree with you.>>>[/quote]Who?[quote]forlife wrote:
In Matthew 5, Jesus didn’t say to love some of your enemies and hate others. He said we should be like the Father, who sends the sun to all, including the just and the unjust. You cite the old testament to prove that God hates sinners, but Jesus specifically countermanded the old law that we should seek an eye for an eye, giving us a new commandment to turn the other cheek. His gospel is about love, not hate. His life and example are about love, not hate. He commanded us to be like the Father, who is about love, not hate.
[/quote]Don’t preach at me man LOL! I made one comment that your raw intellectual grasp of the gospel exceeded what I originally perceived and now you’re poundin a pulpit at me. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the risen only begotten Son of the God of all creation through whose blood and resurrection alone men are reconciled to the Father? Please answer that question with a simple yes or no. Should be easy.
[/quote]

Case in point, how can this fag tell me anything! He’s a SINNER!!! He can’t know anything about faith.
The lesson you should learn is how fragile faith really is. He was there and he lost it. Because of sin? I doubt it. [/quote]

Tirib is weak to scandal…as Francis de Sales said, even though those who commit scandal commit spiritual murder, those that allow scandal to affect their faith commit spiritual suicide. And I remember reading about a spiritual giant that lived around the first couple of centuries that said, I would rather have a knowledgeable priest than a holy priest as my spiritual director.

God connects people in mysterious ways in salvific truth to the Catholic Faith. Now, there is some concrete ways that can be done, but to base someone’s sole ability to be saved on one truth is ridiculous.