Bible Contradictions 2.0

[forlife]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<<You can’t cherry pick statements from Paul, >>>
You can choose to worship a farm boy from Holland as your guide to salvation, but you only prove Peter’s prophetic words to be true.[/quote]Pretty good man. Jesus also wept right before raising Lazarus from the dead. Stay tuned. I’m not givin up on you either.
[/quote]

So he damns people to hell without even giving them the chance to avoid an eternity of suffering, but he weeps because he feels bad about it? And he doesn’t really mean it when he says that it was his will for them to repent, but they would not? I thought Jesus couldn’t lie. Come on, dude. That is total crap, and despite your poetic pontifications, you know it as well as I do.[/quote]Look here bub. You may have these proponents of “invincible ignorance” snowed with this dog n pony show of yours, but you can spare me the charade. You couldn’t care less what the bible says. I’m still not givin up on ya though.
[/quote]

Are you going to answer the question or not?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I put forth that the Bible is not crystal clear message for mere man, and only crystal clear for the Holy Ghost.[/quote]SO DO I!!! Praise His name. And have been for many months now. Once surrendered to the Holy Ghost it is indeed crystal clear. God defines all and especially man.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Because you call me a pagan, a whore, the anti-christ, self-worshiper, &c. Am I supposed to believe that you want me to be your brother?[/quote]Yes yes, YES!!!, but I have already used more time than I have now.
[/quote]Interesting way of showing it.[/quote]If we had been speaking in person all this time I guarantee you would understand much better. Chris I have committed unspeakable spiritual crimes AFTER knowing His mercy and love when I had no excuse. I mean really horrifically sinned. Willfully and deliberately went out of my way to get Him to leave me alone. Cursing His name right to His face and daring Him to kill me. A drunkard and knowing manipulator of His Word to justify my sin to my wife on one hand and despising myself for doing it on the other.

He loved me and held onto me until I couldn’t stand it any more. I learned what Paul means by it being His kindness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). My sin didn’t separate me from Him. It was paid for already and His unshakable faithfulness to His covenant with His Son in which I died and was raised in Him from the foundation of the world put me on my face as I cried out for His forgiveness. He took me back, arms open, ring, robe and fattened calf. Not only am I declared innocent, but He counts me as His bride, brother and son. I stand in awestruck adoration of all that He is and all that He’s done for me.

He has forgiven me my 10,000 talents and it is my great privilege to long to have you as my brother. My prayers for you never ever involve God’s judgment in any way. I beseech Him that He would show you the love and kindness that He’s shown me and that He use me in absolutely any way He may see fitted to that end. I probably fail more often than I recognize, but I tell you Chris as the Lord lives I ache to see you in His eternal fatherly arms as my beloved brother. If you think I look down on you… or anybody else? You’ve got another thing comin. It is precisely because I KNOW that my ongoing union with Him was and is all of His electing grace that I view no fellow creature as any worse or less likely from my perspective to be one of His than I was.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What does this mean?
Proverbs 16:33[quote]The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.[/quote][/quote]

What does this mean, you say? Since you keep insisting on me explaining this wonderful verse, I will explain it. Clearly. The meaning of this verse is that all evils come to the evil ones and all good things come from the Lord.

If we look in at the Septuagint English translation we can see a better translation of Proverbs 16:33, “All [evils] come upon the ungodly into [their] bosoms; but all righteous things [come] of the Lord.”

As well looking at Haydock, we can see that the verse is more deeply talking about a Lord, or the Lord. Either way, the function is the same. The lots is talking about a way of making decisions, we can see the “apostles had recourse to them” (Acts i. 26) when there is a “dispute” in the instance of choosing a Patriarch (now with the Copts). We can see that casting lots can settle a disagreement in chap. xviii. 18. However, the Catholic Church does not have use lots except in certain circumstances. And, as we can see by Augustine, “nothing happens by chance” (City of God v. 9).

This isn’t to say that because there is a purpose behind every thing that people were created or predestined to do evil. We can simply tell that this is not the case because the end of man has to be good, because man’s end comes from the Lord. And, God cannot do evil being all good. As well, the end of man is to know, love, serve, and be with Him forever. So, to make some men to have this end and some to not have this end would have devastating consequences first being contradictory, and the Lord being truth, and truth not being contradictory means that if man’s end is good, no man’s end can be evil. Man can reject, because of freewill and God’s love, to in fact reject his end, and that is the core of all mortal sin and most likely the worst of all sins is to reject his end.

[forlife]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I put forth that the Bible is not crystal clear message for mere man, and only crystal clear for the Holy Ghost.[/quote]SO DO I!!! Praise His name. And have been for many months now. Once surrendered to the Holy Ghost it is indeed crystal clear. God defines all and especially man.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Because you call me a pagan, a whore, the anti-christ, self-worshiper, &c. Am I supposed to believe that you want me to be your brother?[/quote]Yes yes, YES!!!, but I have already used more time than I have now.
[/quote]Interesting way of showing it.[/quote]If we had been speaking in person all this time I guarantee you would understand much better. Chris I have committed unspeakable spiritual crimes AFTER knowing His mercy and love when I had no excuse. I mean really horrifically sinned. Willfully and deliberately went out of my way to get Him to leave me alone. Cursing His name right to His face and daring Him to kill me. A drunkard and knowing manipulator of His Word to justify my sin to my wife on one hand and despising myself for doing it on the other.

He loved me and held onto me until I couldn’t stand it any more. I learned what Paul means by it being His kindness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). My sin didn’t separate me from Him. It was paid for already and His unshakable faithfulness to His covenant with His Son in which I died and was raised in Him from the foundation of the world put me on my face as I cried out for His forgiveness. He took me back, arms open, ring, robe and fattened calf. Not only am I declared innocent, but He counts me as His bride, brother and son. I stand in awestruck adoration of all that He is and all that He’s done for me.

He has forgiven me my 10,000 talents and it is my great privilege to long to have you as my brother. My prayers for you never ever involve God’s judgment in any way. I beseech Him that He would show you the love and kindness that He’s shown me and that He use me in absolutely any way He may see fitted to that end. I probably fail more often than I recognize, but I tell you Chris as the Lord lives I ache to see you in His eternal fatherly arms as my beloved brother. If you think I look down on you… or anybody else? You’ve got another thing comin. It is precisely because I KNOW that my ongoing union with Him was and is all of His electing grace that I view no fellow creature as any worse or less likely from my perspective to be one of His than I was.

[/quote]

Jeremiah 5:

[quote]2 Although they say, “As surely as the LORD lives,”
still they are swearing falsely.[/quote]

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, you can’t logically argue that everything must be caused on one hand, only to violate that very principle by stating that an uncaused cause exists. The very idea of an uncaused cause contradicts the argument that everything has a cause. Therefore, it is a logically false argument.

Now, if you want to argue that almost everything has a cause that’s fine. But then you must admit that you don’t know what has a cause and what doesn’t. As I’ve argued, it’s perfectly possible that matter and energy have always existed. You can’t prove they have a cause. In fact, the idea that something can be created out of nothing violates everything we know about the laws of conservation.[/quote]

We’re going in circles. I can logically argue the case of the Uncaused-causer because it must necessarily be true for the argument to work. If you look at the function of regression, you either end up with something or nothing, nothing violates logic, infinite regress is fallacious, there is one one answer. It’s very much like algebra in the sense that you may have unknown variables, but the answer is still true. for instance:
(w + 6)3 = 3w + 18 ← We don’t what what ‘w’ is, but this answer is correct and true.

I would argue that while it may appear to violate what we know about the laws of conservation, we don’t actually know everything about conservation.[/quote]

But Pat, your uncaused cause violates logic because it has no cause itself. Your uncaused cause is fallacious because it requires an infinite regress. You’re claiming this uncaused cause had no beginning, but insist it’s impossible for matter and energy to have had no beginning. I’m just asking for the same logical standards to be applied, whether talking about god or about matter and energy. You can’t insist matter and energy had a beginning, while claiming god had no beginning. If one theory is possible, so is the other.[/quote]

Casual relationships with infinite regression begs the question, but what moved that? Something would have to be the first mover that itself didn’t need to be moved.[/quote]

Why couldn’t that something be matter and energy?[/quote]

Perhaps it is, but have you seen matter move on it’s own power without something else moving it?[/quote]

Yes, I saw the sun rise this morning based on nothing more than natural laws… Again, the natural laws of the universe don’t require intelligence or intent to move matter.[/quote]

Natural laws? Didn’t know the sun was moved by moral laws.

I presume you mean laws of nature, well that begs the question what moves laws of nature? Something still tends to stay still.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Once surrendered to the Holy Ghost it is indeed crystal clear.
[/quote]

Sorry for my ignorance, but where in the Bible does it say that once we are surrendered to the Holy Ghost that the Bible is indeed crystal clear?

[RyuuKyuzo]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Ryuu, you don’t come across as hubristic because of your point of view. It’s your unwarranted assumption that anyone who disagrees with your conclusions must be less intelligent.

Intelligence and education are important, but they don’t fully account for our beliefs. You also need to consider the role of psychological biases. People can be brilliant and highly educated, but they’re still human.[/quote]

Wrong. I said Pat is unintelligent because his argument is void of intelligence, I’ve never said anything about everyone being unintelligent because they disagree with me. Sure, on the aggregate those who disagree with me are less intelligent, but you’re projecting an angle onto me that just isn’t accurate.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense. Are you trying to say that Christianity is correct outside the realms of intelligence and education? What does that even mean? =/

[RyuuKyuzo]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Ryuu, you don’t come across as hubristic because of your point of view. It’s your unwarranted assumption that anyone who disagrees with your conclusions must be less intelligent.

Intelligence and education are important, but they don’t fully account for our beliefs. You also need to consider the role of psychological biases. People can be brilliant and highly educated, but they’re still human.[/quote]

He’s also 17, in high school and lied about reading several translations of the bible cover to cover claiming it’s an easy read.
That doesn’t mean that young people are incapable of intelligent conversation, but he is…
He just want’s to come here and call people names; he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. Like I said I am glad he’s on your side.
If you want to keep engaging him, go nuts, but your not going to get anywhere…I am surprised the 'Yo Mama…" jokes haven’t made it into the fray.[/quote]

Wow, just how many times are you going to claim I haven’t read the bible before you actually set out to prove I don’t know the bible? You haven’t said anything of substance, yet you continue bitching about how little I know about the topic. I’ve laid out my argument, if you can debunk it then be my guest.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If we had been speaking in person all this time I guarantee you would understand much better. Chris I have committed unspeakable spiritual crimes AFTER knowing His mercy and love when I had no excuse. I mean really horrifically sinned. Willfully and deliberately went out of my way to get Him to leave me alone. Cursing His name right to His face and daring Him to kill me. A drunkard and knowing manipulator of His Word to justify my sin to my wife on one hand and despising myself for doing it on the other.[/quote]

I hope you’re not postulating that “in person” I would understand much better you suggesting and blatantly saying that I am the whore of Babylon, anti-christ, pagan, and self worshiper (sorry if I forgot one). In normal discourse, depending on my mood, I would have gone either two routes…Pope Benedict XVI or good old S. Nick. I am sure you’d prefer I choose Benedict’s modus operandi over S. Nick’s.

That is horrible, I am sure the Lord has forgiven you for your debts. I can’t say that I have done the same, I’m not perfect, but never horrendous acts.

He loved me and held onto me until I couldn’t stand it any more. I learned what Paul means by it being His kindness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). My sin didn’t separate me from Him. It was paid for already and His unshakable faithfulness to His covenant with His Son in which I died and was raised in Him from the foundation of the world put me on my face as I cried out for His forgiveness. He took me back, arms open, ring, robe and fattened calf. Not only am I declared innocent, but He counts me as His bride, brother and son. I stand in awestruck adoration of all that He is and all that He’s done for me.

Your sin does not separate you from Him? “Nay, your iniquities separate between you and God, and because of your sins has he turned away [his] face from you, so as not to have mercy [upon you].” (Isaiah lix. 2)

He has forgiven me my 10,000 talents and it is my great privilege to long to have you as my brother. My prayers for you never ever involve God’s judgment in any way. I beseech Him that He would show you the love and kindness that He’s shown me and that He use me in absolutely any way He may see fitted to that end. I probably fail more often than I recognize, but I tell you Chris as the Lord lives I ache to see you in His eternal fatherly arms as my beloved brother. If you think I look down on you… or anybody else? You’ve got another thing comin. It is precisely because I KNOW that my ongoing union with Him was and is all of His electing grace that I view no fellow creature as any worse or less likely from my perspective to be one of His than I was.

Well, I have felt G-d’s judgement. I go to see the Lord every morning for an hour and reconcile myself at maximum every two weeks and do daily penance.

[RyuuKyuzo]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryu the kid wrote:

Wtf? You haven’t shown that a belief in god = intelligence, you’re merely asserting your position again.[/quote]

This fascination you have with who is smarter is something only a youngster would be fixated on. “I’m smarter than you…nuh uh …I’m smarter than you.” Try to stop it if you can. You’re not out with your little friends comparing Psych tests. Sheesh…that is at least part of what makes you so annoying. Not unlike some kid that was perhaps 7 or 8 years younger than you whining about needing money for the movies.

I already KNOW your position. I don’t know why you feel the need to replace actual substance with this redundancy. Actually, I do, it’s because all you have is “claiming you’re right” and when that doesn’t work you “claim” harder.

It’s because there is nothing else to say kid. Faith is not science and science is not faith.

I don’t know what atheists you’ve been talking to (my guess is it’s the imaginary ones you invent to esteem yourself), but most Christians don’t read the bible at all and only about 37% read is at LEAST once a week, whereas atheists are so notorious for knowing the bible hands down that it’s even assumed in your Christian “how-to-convert-atheists” hand book that we are more versed in the bible than you –

That’s pure nonsense. I wouldn’t believe that anymore than I believed you when you said that you’ve read “many, many versions of the Bible.” That was funny remember when you said that—ahh good times. Anyway, there are some atheists on this board who have read the Bible and some who have not. I suspect that most atheists have not.

No, you responded to my argument about the Crucifixion contradiction. A post which I promptly responded to. Perhaps YOU need to pay closer attention. I’m talking about a new argument about the GENEALOGY of Jesus. Look up those verses and tell me what you notice.

LOL --asked and answered junior!

there’s not much left to say in this post…

There’s not much left to say PERIOD. I have to learn to trust my gut more. My original thought about you being a blow hard college kid was spot on. But did I ignore you? No. Why do I have get involved with 20 year old punks who claim there’s no God? Seriously, I let myself down every time I waste time on little turds like you. (shakes head). Come back in 10 years after life has beaten the shit out of you a few times. Your perspective will change and you’ll even be tolerable at that point. Until then I’m sorry for your parents (or parent whichever) they (she/he) tried though I’m sure.

[/quote]

First paragraph in a non-sequitur. YOU made the claim that belief in God correlates with intelligence, then when I call you on it you have the nerve to bitch about my “obsession” with intelligence. That would be like if you claimed you could fly and I called you on it; and you went about bitching about what an obsession I have over flying.

Faith is not science and science is not faith? Is that your best shot? Why do you bother debating me, your arguments defeat themselves. If your belief system doesn’t live up to the claims it makes, then it is flawed. Believing in it really hard Doesn’t make it true.

What you suspect means little because, as it seems, you tend to base your world view on things despite observable contradictions with reality. Again, you claim I haven’t read the bible (and I have, several times) yet you make absolutely NO effort to show why. Hmm, I wonder why that might be? Could it be that you’re simply claiming you’re right to compensate for an embarrassing lack of substance in your argument? Well, you’ve yet to show anything to the contrary…

Asked and answered? What are you talking about? You haven’t responded to my counter argument on the crucifixion of Jesus and you’ve completely ignored my argument on his genealogy. You’re embarrassing yourself…

Wow, such a stupid final paragraph. You start out by merely re-asserting that you believe really hard and that’s supposed to mean more than evidence and logic or something… then you follow up with an ad hominem attack and you end by suggesting that I’ll be more willing to simply take you word for it under the condition that my life will suck for the next ten years… because somehow that makes sense in your head.

Funny how your most long-winded paragraph came directly after you stated how little there was left to say. XD

[RyuuKyuzo]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Ragging on Ryuu for his age is no better than him ragging on you for your intelligence.

Keep the ad hominems out of it.[/quote]

There’s no comparison here. I am saying he in unintelligent because he says unintelligent things. He is saying I am young, therefore incorrect de-facto.

[pat]

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, you can’t logically argue that everything must be caused on one hand, only to violate that very principle by stating that an uncaused cause exists. The very idea of an uncaused cause contradicts the argument that everything has a cause. Therefore, it is a logically false argument.

Now, if you want to argue that almost everything has a cause that’s fine. But then you must admit that you don’t know what has a cause and what doesn’t. As I’ve argued, it’s perfectly possible that matter and energy have always existed. You can’t prove they have a cause. In fact, the idea that something can be created out of nothing violates everything we know about the laws of conservation.[/quote]

We’re going in circles. I can logically argue the case of the Uncaused-causer because it must necessarily be true for the argument to work. If you look at the function of regression, you either end up with something or nothing, nothing violates logic, infinite regress is fallacious, there is one one answer. It’s very much like algebra in the sense that you may have unknown variables, but the answer is still true. for instance:
(w + 6)3 = 3w + 18 ← We don’t what what ‘w’ is, but this answer is correct and true.

I would argue that while it may appear to violate what we know about the laws of conservation, we don’t actually know everything about conservation.[/quote]

But Pat, your uncaused cause violates logic because it has no cause itself. Your uncaused cause is fallacious because it requires an infinite regress. You’re claiming this uncaused cause had no beginning, but insist it’s impossible for matter and energy to have had no beginning. I’m just asking for the same logical standards to be applied, whether talking about god or about matter and energy. You can’t insist matter and energy had a beginning, while claiming god had no beginning. If one theory is possible, so is the other.[/quote]

Casual relationships with infinite regression begs the question, but what moved that? Something would have to be the first mover that itself didn’t need to be moved.[/quote]

Why couldn’t that something be matter and energy?[/quote]
Can you make an argument for matter /energy being both causal and uncaused?

[pat]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<<You can’t cherry pick statements from Paul, >>>
You can choose to worship a farm boy from Holland as your guide to salvation, but you only prove Peter’s prophetic words to be true.[/quote]Pretty good man. Jesus also wept right before raising Lazarus from the dead. Stay tuned. I’m not givin up on you either.
[/quote]

So he damns people to hell without even giving them the chance to avoid an eternity of suffering, but he weeps because he feels bad about it? And he doesn’t really mean it when he says that it was his will for them to repent, but they would not? I thought Jesus couldn’t lie. Come on, dude. That is total crap, and despite your poetic pontifications, you know it as well as I do.[/quote]Look here bub. You may have these proponents of “invincible ignorance” snowed with this dog n pony show of yours, but you can spare me the charade. You couldn’t care less what the bible says. I’m still not givin up on ya though.
[/quote]

I got a better idea, why don’t you answer his questions?

[pat]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Once surrendered to the Holy Ghost it is indeed crystal clear.
[/quote]

Sorry for my ignorance, but where in the Bible does it say that once we are surrendered to the Holy Ghost that the Bible is indeed crystal clear?[/quote]

It doesn’t. I am weary of those who claim to have it down pat considering the multiple meanings and values versus and phrases can have in and out of context it’s certainly sckeptical

[pat]

Alright 4th tenet, and probably the least bad, but still fallacious, Invincible Grace.
Invincible Grace is expressed as:
“Irresistible Grace is the idea that the elect, those who Calvinists believe have been unconditionally elected to eternal life, cannot resist the grace of God and heaven’s determination to save them. As those elected to damnation can do nothing about it, those who are elected to salvation can do nothing to resist. The grace of God overwhelms them in such a way that even if they wanted to they could not repel it.”

So those ‘elect’ cannot resist it and those condemned cannot obtain it. Now it is true that no one can obtain the kingdom with out God’s grace. But what is horribly wrong with the tenet is the predestination part. That God elected some to have it, and others to not. What ever the will of the person does not matter, in as much as the condemned what to please and love God, they have been preordained to burn in hell for all eternity. Why? Just 'cause. No reason, really. It also states that the elect cannot resist and therefore fall from grace. So therefore Mark 12:31 ‘blasphemy against the Holy Spirit’ is completely irrelevant. The elect cannot do it, and it doesn’t make a difference if the condemned do it. And this greatest of all sins is to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to reject him.
This is recklessly false because the basic premise, predestination, is false. If you take freewill out of the equation, you have the following scenario: God is solely responsible for all evil, all people’s bad behavior and the fate of each individual. If you take freewill out of the equation, religion is less than useless. The elect are still elect and the condemned are still condemned.
The calvinist will argue that we cannot argue with the omniscience of God, but that is not the point. Predestination invalidates all morality, period. It says of God what is not true. God gave to humans what he gave to no other living thing, the ability to choose our own fate.
It is true that if God wills something, it happens, but that alone does not save you. You must choose God. God can choose you, but if you tell him no, he will not resist you.
Do we know how many women before St. Mary he asked to bare his son? It could have been many who said no. Or it could have been none.

Scriptural backing for refutation:

• John chap 3
• John 5:24
• John 8:24
• Mark 16:16
• Hebrews 11:6
• Colossians 2:12
• Ephesians 2:8
• Revelations 22:17

etc, etc…There’s more. But you get the point.
Tomorrow, Perseverance of Saints…

[forlife]

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Ryuu, you don’t come across as hubristic because of your point of view. It’s your unwarranted assumption that anyone who disagrees with your conclusions must be less intelligent.

Intelligence and education are important, but they don’t fully account for our beliefs. You also need to consider the role of psychological biases. People can be brilliant and highly educated, but they’re still human.[/quote]

Wrong. I said Pat is unintelligent because his argument is void of intelligence, I’ve never said anything about everyone being unintelligent because they disagree with me. Sure, on the aggregate those who disagree with me are less intelligent, but you’re projecting an angle onto me that just isn’t accurate.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense. Are you trying to say that Christianity is correct outside the realms of intelligence and education? What does that even mean? =/[/quote]

Since when does reading a thread on a message board qualify you as a psychologist capable of measuring a person’s intellect? I’m a psychologist, and I wouldn’t presume to do that, partly because it would make me look…unintelligent. I guarantee there are more intelligent people than you or me who have made similar arguments.

Look, the point is that you’re better served by attacking the message rather than the messenger. Call the point illogical if you want (as I’ve done), but don’t attack the person. Ad hominems only hurt your credibility.

I’m an agnostic, not a Christian. And I’m saying that human biases affect ALL of us, when it comes to drawing conclusions. It’s possible to be highly educated and intelligent, and still draw false conclusions about reality, due to those cognitive biases.

[pat]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, you can’t logically argue that everything must be caused on one hand, only to violate that very principle by stating that an uncaused cause exists. The very idea of an uncaused cause contradicts the argument that everything has a cause. Therefore, it is a logically false argument.

Now, if you want to argue that almost everything has a cause that’s fine. But then you must admit that you don’t know what has a cause and what doesn’t. As I’ve argued, it’s perfectly possible that matter and energy have always existed. You can’t prove they have a cause. In fact, the idea that something can be created out of nothing violates everything we know about the laws of conservation.[/quote]

We’re going in circles. I can logically argue the case of the Uncaused-causer because it must necessarily be true for the argument to work. If you look at the function of regression, you either end up with something or nothing, nothing violates logic, infinite regress is fallacious, there is one one answer. It’s very much like algebra in the sense that you may have unknown variables, but the answer is still true. for instance:
(w + 6)3 = 3w + 18 ← We don’t what what ‘w’ is, but this answer is correct and true.

I would argue that while it may appear to violate what we know about the laws of conservation, we don’t actually know everything about conservation.[/quote]

But Pat, your uncaused cause violates logic because it has no cause itself. Your uncaused cause is fallacious because it requires an infinite regress. You’re claiming this uncaused cause had no beginning, but insist it’s impossible for matter and energy to have had no beginning. I’m just asking for the same logical standards to be applied, whether talking about god or about matter and energy. You can’t insist matter and energy had a beginning, while claiming god had no beginning. If one theory is possible, so is the other.[/quote]

Casual relationships with infinite regression begs the question, but what moved that? Something would have to be the first mover that itself didn’t need to be moved.[/quote]

Why couldn’t that something be matter and energy?[/quote]

Perhaps it is, but have you seen matter move on it’s own power without something else moving it?[/quote]

Yes, I saw the sun rise this morning based on nothing more than natural laws… Again, the natural laws of the universe don’t require intelligence or intent to move matter.[/quote]

Natural laws? Didn’t know the sun was moved by moral laws.

I presume you mean laws of nature, well that begs the question what moves laws of nature? Something still tends to stay still.[/quote]

Where’d the laws come from and what drives them? I am insufferable.

[pat]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
<<<You can’t cherry pick statements from Paul, >>>
You can choose to worship a farm boy from Holland as your guide to salvation, but you only prove Peter’s prophetic words to be true.[/quote]Pretty good man. Jesus also wept right before raising Lazarus from the dead. Stay tuned. I’m not givin up on you either.
[/quote]

So he damns people to hell without even giving them the chance to avoid an eternity of suffering, but he weeps because he feels bad about it? And he doesn’t really mean it when he says that it was his will for them to repent, but they would not? I thought Jesus couldn’t lie. Come on, dude. That is total crap, and despite your poetic pontifications, you know it as well as I do.[/quote]Look here bub. You may have these proponents of “invincible ignorance” snowed with this dog n pony show of yours, but you can spare me the charade. You couldn’t care less what the bible says. I’m still not givin up on ya though.
[/quote]

How do you know we’re proponents of Invincible Ignorance when you do not even understand it.[/quote]

If you live it, you ought to know it. The quest for truth should not stop at the bible, even when it is accurately interpreted.

Further, it is well evidenced that insulting people out of their faith into another is a fail of epic proportions.

[pat]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If we had been speaking in person all this time I guarantee you would understand much better. Chris I have committed unspeakable spiritual crimes AFTER knowing His mercy and love when I had no excuse. I mean really horrifically sinned. Willfully and deliberately went out of my way to get Him to leave me alone. Cursing His name right to His face and daring Him to kill me. A drunkard and knowing manipulator of His Word to justify my sin to my wife on one hand and despising myself for doing it on the other.[/quote]

I hope you’re not postulating that “in person” I would understand much better you suggesting and blatantly saying that I am the whore of Babylon, anti-christ, pagan, and self worshiper (sorry if I forgot one). In normal discourse, depending on my mood, I would have gone either two routes…Pope Benedict XVI or good old S. Nick. I am sure you’d prefer I choose Benedict’s modus operandi over S. Nick’s.

That is horrible, I am sure the Lord has forgiven you for your debts. I can’t say that I have done the same, I’m not perfect, but never horrendous acts.

He loved me and held onto me until I couldn’t stand it any more. I learned what Paul means by it being His kindness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). My sin didn’t separate me from Him. It was paid for already and His unshakable faithfulness to His covenant with His Son in which I died and was raised in Him from the foundation of the world put me on my face as I cried out for His forgiveness. He took me back, arms open, ring, robe and fattened calf. Not only am I declared innocent, but He counts me as His bride, brother and son. I stand in awestruck adoration of all that He is and all that He’s done for me.

Your sin does not separate you from Him? “Nay, your iniquities separate between you and God, and because of your sins has he turned away [his] face from you, so as not to have mercy [upon you].” (Isaiah lix. 2)

He has forgiven me my 10,000 talents and it is my great privilege to long to have you as my brother. My prayers for you never ever involve God’s judgment in any way. I beseech Him that He would show you the love and kindness that He’s shown me and that He use me in absolutely any way He may see fitted to that end. I probably fail more often than I recognize, but I tell you Chris as the Lord lives I ache to see you in His eternal fatherly arms as my beloved brother. If you think I look down on you… or anybody else? You’ve got another thing comin. It is precisely because I KNOW that my ongoing union with Him was and is all of His electing grace that I view no fellow creature as any worse or less likely from my perspective to be one of His than I was.

Well, I have felt G-d’s judgement. I go to see the Lord every morning for an hour and reconcile myself at minimum every two weeks and do daily penance. [/quote]

Are you going to be pissed if you are elect, but your wife and kids are damned by predetermination? I am just sayin’,
Being a calvinist, you ought know, you can do nothing for us. We were damned before we took our first breath, right?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Jeremiah 5:

[quote]2 Although they say, “As surely as the LORD lives,”
still they are swearing falsely.[/quote][/quote]Thank you so much for more of your penetrating and reverent biblical exposition. I’ll give ya hint. That isn’t the only place the phrase occurs.