[quote]colt44 wrote:
No surprise here…[/quote]
By your logic, seeing how California has the highest incarcerated rate and is arguably the most liberal state…liberalism causes crime…definitely not a shocker, just pointing it out.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
“Yes, they were. And so was the US population, for a good long time.”
^^ This. ‘They were’ as in the Founding Fathers. Also, of the men who signed the Constitution according to the your wiki, a large portion of them were Christians. We never established if being a signor of the US Consitution makes you a Founding Father, not all the men we consider Founding Fathers signed, further not all the men who signed could be considered Founding Fathers, least not in the light we present, Jefferson or Madison as.[/quote]
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_founding_fathers.html[/quote]
Drop kick to the chest.[/quote]
Richard Henry Lee, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Samuel Adams and, John Hancock are not Founding Fathers?
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
Richard Henry Lee, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Samuel Adams and, John Hancock are not Founding Fathers?[/quote]
The first list I provided included founding fathers who weren’t signers of the Constitution. You can show us that ‘half’ were deists or ‘largely anti-christian.’
But for now, I’m off to Church. Good day.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
Richard Henry Lee, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Samuel Adams and, John Hancock are not Founding Fathers?[/quote]
The first list I provided included founding fathers who weren’t signers of the Constitution. You can show us that ‘half’ were deists or ‘largely anti-christian.’
But for now, I’m off to Church. Good day.
[/quote]
Well more than half of the Founding Fathers were nominally registered with a Church at that time. If we consider half to be all those men who signed the constitution plus the ones who are granted Founding Father status by merit, then my claim is dubious, but not necessarily incorrect.
If we consider the Founding Fathers to be those men who produced literature, held high government ofice and were otherwise highly involved in the nation, then my claim may be correct or near to it. As we can obviously see that their alot of ‘Big Names’ among the Deist crowd whereas your men are quite obviously mostly unrecognizable filler.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
In 1948 we were 91% Christian, according to gallup tracking. Were we an underdeveloped nation? The west developed from a highly religious people. It’s the social and financial capital of ours, the religious, that is being spent off today.
[/quote]
Lol right. The Founding Fathers were VERY religious people. Also, it was your baby boomer more religious retards that nose dived the long term finances of our nation.[/quote]
Yes, they were. And so was the US population, for a good long time.
[/quote]
Quoted and bolded for emphasis.
Rohnyn, dude, you move between generalizations and specificities to suit your argument (whatever it is). You can’t say that the current group of “dumb” Christians is responsible for the lot of the problems we have now while ignoring that the vast, VAST, FUCKING VAST majority of the people in this country since its inception and meteoric rise to the position of the sole superpower of the entire Earth have been Christians.
In fact, if you REALLY want to see how far you can take the irony of your assertions, we can start a list of great men throughout history who were religious and you can start one comprised of those who were not and we’ll see who runs out of names first.
What say you?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
In 1948 we were 91% Christian, according to gallup tracking. Were we an underdeveloped nation? The west developed from a highly religious people. It’s the social and financial capital of ours, the religious, that is being spent off today.
[/quote]
Lol right. The Founding Fathers were VERY religious people. Also, it was your baby boomer more religious retards that nose dived the long term finances of our nation.[/quote]
Yes, they were. And so was the US population, for a good long time.
[/quote]
Quoted and bolded for emphasis.
Rohnyn, dude, you move between generalizations and specificities to suit your argument (whatever it is). You can’t say that the current group of “dumb” Christians is responsible for the lot of the problems we have now while ignoring that the vast, VAST, FUCKING VAST majority of the people in this country since its inception and meteoric rise to the position of the sole superpower of the entire Earth have been Christians.
In fact, if you REALLY want to see how far you can take the irony of your assertions, we can start a list of great men throughout history who were religious and you can start one comprised of those who were not and we’ll see who runs out of names first.
What say you?
[/quote]
I’d say it sounds like a grand waste of time. The sheer construction of the government indicates an aversion and distrust of religions at the time. If the USA had a great deal of Christian influence at its inception then I believe our system would look far more theocratic and Founding Fathers not so anti-clerical.
Further, if you can find a man on some church roster, it doesn’t make him a believer, he may just be pragmatic and play cultural Christian to further his social networking. Being an infidel was not a popular thing in communities built around the Church.
You know how Anti-Clerical I am, yet if you did a background check you’d find me registered in 3 parishes as recently as 2 1/2 years ago, and having a baptism certificate. Does this make me Christian?
I think your better argument will be showing how and in what way Christianity did UNIQUELY and POSITIVELY affect our society. I don’t see a connection, as Christianity has been force in many countries for 2000 years and not resulted in the developments we have hade.
Those things we’re born from leaving the mental vicelock of the faith and giving into a cultural and intellectual enlightenment. An enlightenment that drew inspiration and foundations and philosophy from times long before the onset of Christianity.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
You know how Anti-Clerical I am, yet if you did a background check you’d find me registered in 3 parishes as recently as 2 1/2 years ago, and having a baptism certificate. Does this make me Christian?
[/quote]
Of course not.It does, though, certainly highlight what the utter absurdity of implied message of this whole thread. Thanks for that.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
You know how Anti-Clerical I am, yet if you did a background check you’d find me registered in 3 parishes as recently as 2 1/2 years ago, and having a baptism certificate. Does this make me Christian?
[/quote]
Of course not.It does, though, certainly highlight what the utter absurdity of implied message of this whole thread. Thanks for that.
[/quote]
So I just disproved you but also disproved the whole thread. Ha, what irony.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
Richard Henry Lee, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Samuel Adams and, John Hancock are not Founding Fathers?[/quote]
The first list I provided included founding fathers who weren’t signers of the Constitution. You can show us that ‘half’ were deists or ‘largely anti-christian.’
But for now, I’m off to Church. Good day.
[/quote]
Well more than half of the Founding Fathers were nominally registered with a Church at that time. If we consider half to be all those men who signed the constitution plus the ones who are granted Founding Father status by merit, then my claim is dubious, but not necessarily incorrect.
If we consider the Founding Fathers to be those men who produced literature, held high government ofice and were otherwise highly involved in the nation, then my claim may be correct or near to it. As we can obviously see that their alot of ‘Big Names’ among the Deist crowd whereas your men are quite obviously mostly unrecognizable filler.
[/quote]
Well, I’m not chasing goalposts down every time they’re moved. The founders very much reflected the very Protestant religious life of the time. Though we did manage to sneak in a couple of Catholics.
There is no indication that anything close to ‘half’ of them were deists or anti-christian. As for those few who were, they certainly did not earn their place among the founders due to their Deism. If anything they were reserved in public about any such beliefs.
There’s nothing left to argue, so excuse me while I enjoy the rest of my Sunday. You should’ve heard–no, felt–the wonderful singing, the blessing of the children, and the homily. Father asked of us, as people of faith, to put away our anxieties (as St. Paul asked of us). To relax, if only for today, and find peace again in these times. It’s SW Florida. It’s sunny, with not a cloud in sight. There’s a breeze. And finally, the humidity is bearable, and the heat diminished to a pleasant warmth. Time to catch a nap on the patio.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
You know how Anti-Clerical I am, yet if you did a background check you’d find me registered in 3 parishes as recently as 2 1/2 years ago, and having a baptism certificate. Does this make me Christian?
[/quote]
Of course not.It does, though, certainly highlight what the utter absurdity of implied message of this whole thread. Thanks for that.
[/quote]
So I just disproved you but also disproved the whole thread. Ha, what irony.[/quote]
The former? No. The latter? In spades.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
This only shows how shaky it’s basis actually is, because anything that requires a text 5x as big as the statement made to validate is 99% of the time bullshit.
[/quote]
I feel compelled to tell you that this statement invalidates almost the entire mass of western philosophy and philosophical argumentation. That is a grossly absurd generalization against ALL statements both scientific and philosophical that require debate and/or explanation.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
In 1948 we were 91% Christian, according to gallup tracking. Were we an underdeveloped nation? The west developed from a highly religious people. It’s the social and financial capital of ours, the religious, that is being spent off today.
[/quote]
Lol right. The Founding Fathers were VERY religious people. Also, it was your baby boomer more religious retards that nose dived the long term finances of our nation.[/quote]
Yes, they were. And so was the US population, for a good long time.
[/quote]
Not this again. The Founding Fathers were at least half Deists if not more and largely anti-Christian.
Thomas Jefferson
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth.”
Jefferson again
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on
man…Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus.”
More Jefferson
“The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves…these clergy in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ.”
Jefferson’s word for the Bible? “Dunghill.”
John Adams
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines
and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion
encumbered with in these days?”
Also Adams
“The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity.”
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states
“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion.”
Here’s Thomas Paine
“I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible).”
“Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse
than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to ‘God’ to butcher the boys, to
massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not
dare so dishonor my Creator’s name by (attaching) it to this filthy book
(the Bible).”
“It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible.”
“Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins…and
you will have sins in abundance.”
And; “The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in
pretend imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.”
Finally let’s hear from James Madison
“What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.”
Unfortunately the only thing we have on George Wasington is anecdotal.
“Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself.” -Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800[/quote]
Friend, those aren’t all the founding fathers…
Point being? We have quotes from Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, George Washington and Aaron Burr confirming their pejorative view of Christianity. YOU said THEY WERE CHRISTIANS, as we can see a large portion of them are obviously not, and these men represent some of those most preeminent among them. Many of those signers were simply landowners who had contributed to the movement. Further of that grand list, you still have yet to provide evidence they WERE practicing Christians. We already know these men weren’t. And even those who may have attended Mass, you have way to gauge how much oof that was political networking and who was truly beatified.
[/quote]
I am calling bullshit on said quotes unless you can provide a link. I own the Jefferson, Adams letters most of which we about God, Christianity and scripture. While Jefferson and Franklin subscribed to Deism, they were still decidedly Christian. And Adams was not a deist, he was flat out a Christian.
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< The founders very much reflected the very Protestant religious life of the time. >>>[/quote]Why do you do this? Of course it’s true, but why do YOU bring it up? You’ve done it before. You know by now I wouldn’t play games with you. Though I think I know what you’ll say, I’m asking honestly.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< The founders very much reflected the very Protestant religious life of the time. >>>[/quote]Why do you do this? Of course it’s true, but why do YOU bring it up? You’ve done it before. You know by now I wouldn’t play games with you. Though I think I know what you’ll say, I’m asking honestly.
[/quote]
Why wouldn’t I bring it up? It’s a historical reality.
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Why wouldn’t I bring it up? It’s a historic reality. [/quote]Of course all historic truth should be told, just because it’s true, which I hoped and pretty much did figure was what you were going to say. It’s not even intelligibly arguable that the faith of the protestant reformation was utterly instrumental in the founding of this once great nation and that it was the scriptural morality, unevenly practiced by some of the big name founders as it was, that allowed our system of limited centralized government to thrive until the 1960’s. Gravity could be more credibly denied.
You KNOW, I know you do, that when Jefferson declared “a firm reliance on divine providence” in the D.O.I, he had before him that key reformation doctrine of the all governing hand of almighty God I have been incessantly proclaiming for the last couple years here which included eternal predestination and election. Oh yes he did and EVERYBODY knew it. That’s why he used that very unmistakable theological term. It was the prevailing (though no not exclusive) world view of the colonies.
In other words, though I am now it’s lone champion and ideological whipping boy (in the religion threads) of the T-Nation PWI forum, every single thing I believe was ascendant and common at our founding… wasn’t it. That’s why you have very wisely never once attacked me for it. That’s God’s curve ball to you. God’s curve ball to me is a guy in the largest church in the world that I firmly believe to be the most successful tool of Satan, bar none, in all of human history who displays more consistent and self controlled fruit of the spirit around here than I do. Of course there ARE explanations, but we will NOT agree on what they are and that’s another topic.
You continue to make me correct in my high estimation of you. It’s not your responsibility really, (well, maybe it is actually) but you should talk to your homies about how their language dishonors Christ and discredits your church. I would =]
Oh yeah. people like this Rohnyn guy are pure entertainment LOL!!! On one hand that is. On the other they’re just the type of delusional God hating loud mouth that wind up on their face in tearful repentance one day as the triumphant conquering King of the hearts of men sweetly subdues them and calls them to be champions of His Word. I know a few. That’s His curve ball to them =]
EDIT: This is brilliance of the first and foremost order: You said on 06-26-2011, 03:13 PM:
[quote]<<< You libertarians may just one day realize that certain social and public expectations, certain norms and morals, requirements, and even laws, actually minimize the role of government. It was the protestantism of earlier Americans which gave them not only the attitude, but the actual ability, to be self-reliant (thus self-governing) individuals. Faith, family, and local community and custom being the pillars. You have been, and always will be, your own worst enemy in shrinking the welfare state, and naturally, taxation. >>>[/quote] My dear friend, human thought does not come any clearer than this. You are well aware that on these topics we have always been in fullest agreement going back a number of years now.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Why wouldn’t I bring it up? It’s a historic reality. [/quote]Of course all historic truth should be told, just because it’s true, which I hoped and pretty much did figure was what you were going to say. It’s not even intelligibly arguable that the faith of the protestant reformation was utterly instrumental in the founding of this once great nation and that it was the scriptural morality, unevenly practiced by some of the big name founders as it was, that allowed our system of limited centralized government to thrive until the 1960’s. Gravity could be more credibly denied.
You KNOW, I know you do, that when Jefferson declared “a firm reliance on divine providence” in the D.O.I, he had before him that key reformation doctrine of the all governing hand of almighty God I have been incessantly proclaiming for the last couple years here which included eternal predestination and election. Oh yes he did and EVERYBODY knew it. That’s why he used that very unmistakable theological term. It was the prevailing (though no not exclusive) world view of the colonies.
In other words, though I am now it’s lone champion and ideological whipping boy (in the religion threads) of the T-Nation PWI forum, every single thing I believe was ascendant and common at our founding… wasn’t it. That’s why you have very wisely never once attacked me for it. That’s God’s curve ball to you. God’s curve ball to me is a guy in the largest church in the world that I firmly believe to be the most successful tool of Satan, bar none, in all of human history who displays more consistent and self controlled fruit of the spirit around here than I do. Of course there ARE explanations, but we will NOT agree on what they are and that’s another topic.
You continue to make me correct in my high estimation of you. It’s not your responsibility really, (well, maybe it is actually) but you should talk to your homies about how their language dishonors Christ and discredits your church. I would =]
Oh yeah. people like this Rohnyn guy are pure entertainment LOL!!! On one hand that is. On the other they’re just the type of delusional God hating loud mouth that wind up on their face in tearful repentance one day as the triumphant conquering King of the hearts of men sweetly subdues them and calls them to be champions of His Word. I know a few. That’s His curve ball to them =]
EDIT: This is brilliance of the first and foremost order: You said on 06-26-2011, 03:13 PM:
As a citizen I can welcome ANY faith that so happens to line up with those old-timey morals, values, and manners of self-conduct. It’s no skin off my nose to say that early America was very protestant.
OK, we’ll leave it there for now. I just cannot help believing this will come up again though. I can envision scenarios wherein I would not be able help it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Friend, those aren’t all the founding fathers…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States#Religion[/quote]Oh yeah baby. My homeboys were out in force in those days. Look at that glorious company of Calvinist crusaders. T.U.L.I.P. troopers wall to wall with a smattering of papists and arminians. How gracious of my ecumenical brethren to allow them along for the ride as they founded and set in motion the mightiest, most prosperous, most progressive and feared nation in the whole of human history. Yeah, but I’m not saying it was their Calvinism specifically that had anything to do with their success… am I? Oh yes I am.
It was the invincible victorious all governing King of creation under whose comprehensive decree not one atom dare flinch in defiance of His will. It was that God. The God before whom the seraphim cry out HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of His glory!!! The God who declares the end from the beginning, calling those things which are not yet as though they already were and accomplishing ALL His good pleasure (Isaiah weren’t foolin). The God whose Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world to save all those who the Father would give Him, indwelling them with His Holy Spirit as the first fruit of promise until the final resurrection.
The god of Aquinas and Arminius who is pushed before the throne of man to see what man will do with him could never have been relied upon for such a task as the taming of the human heart to make way for a new nation with the most limited civil government ever. No sir. Even that pagan skeptic Thomas Jefferson knew better in that day than to proceed without “a firm reliance on divine providence.”
Again, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646: Of Providence:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
Thank you dear God in heaven, those guys got it so right.
Forgive me sloth, it didn’t take as long as I thought. =]