[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
What would be the Best fighting style to learn for self defense in street fights/ Bar scenarios?[/quote]
MMA
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
A large does of situational awareness, chunks of boxing/kickboxing/muay thai and wrestling/judo - a dash of experience and a sprinkling of a respectable 100 meter sprint.[/quote]
hahhahahahaahaha!!! you re right! 100 m sprint comes very handy at times! :))
OP check out Krav Maga. It was developed by the Israeli Army and adapted from parts of other martial arts and collaborated with street fighting to make it brutally effective.
K well i have a month at this gym and il continue to see how it goes but does anyone have any suggestions for legit boxing/ mma gyms in Arizona?
@ devil dog the ken shamrock gym is closed down and the arizona combat sports i guess most of their actual fighters left for some reason
im not sure about krav maga… i kind of really want to look into a legit boxing gym around Arizona
[quote]666Rich wrote:
If you are looking for BOXING, the good places will not be on groupon, will probably not have a website, and most likely be in shadier parts of town and be run by guys saltier than my balls in 90 degree heat. Theyre worth finding, those gyms, not my balls.
I would encourage a full contact combative sport merely so that you learn to be humble and avoid trouble because you have nothing to prove.[/quote]
This is the best advice a young guy like you can get. Full contact gets that “I need to fight” energy that young guys have and uses it to be productive. Bar fights and all the "whadda you lookin’ at’ stuff that goes on at that stage of life is usually not generated by a need to protect yourself but rather to prove yourself.
Great advice.
[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
im not sure about krav maga… i kind of really want to look into a legit boxing gym around Arizona[/quote]
See here’s the thing about krav: it really, really, REALLY depends on who is teaching it as to how effective it is. Like any martial arts system, it can be a killer or totally worthless depending on your instructor.
And unlike other arts, there is no competition, so its hard to tell who’s teaching garbage from who’s teaching the real solid art.
The other thing I don’t like is that they kind of tend to become a jack of all trades but master of none - i.e. they know the basics of punching, grappling, and whatever else, but they don’t become GOOD at any of them.
The krav classes I have seen in person, although it’s admittedly not many, did not impress me. Their boxing/punching skills were badly lacking, and any semblance of footwork or angle creating was absent - it was much more “straight on” than any boxing coach would have you do.
But if you can find a good instructor, it can be a really valuable art.
If you truly want to box, though (and I always wanted to as well, before I started) you need to find a good boxing gym. Like 666Rich said, odds are is that you’ll be able to find the phone number but they won’t have a website, or even know how to make one.
That’s kind of how you know you’ve found a good place… it’s all about the fighting, and the “marketing” part is non-existent.
Now, if you’re in Arizona, there’s a shitload of Mexicans and Hispanics there, which means there are going to be some good boxing gyms and a shitload of good boxers to go with them.
Start here: http://www.boxinggyms.com/addresses/arizona.htm
Things that you want to look for:
- amateur fighters
- pro fighters
- Sparring
- Guys who don’t speak English
- a full size ring
- coaches working the pads inside said ring
- a 3 minute bell that NEVER stops tolling
- the smell of sweat and leather
- a small, sometimes shitty, old locker room
Things you don’t want:
- “Boxing class”
- A boxing class taught by a woman (unless its Ann Wolfe or a female fighter)
- White, upper-middle class guys
- Very high monthly rates (normally comes with the above three)
- A gym that teaches “Boxing/MMA/Shotokan/grappling/wrestling/BJJ/Muay Thai.” You want ONLY boxing.
- a place that has rows and rows of bags but no floor space or ring (like KO Boxing or something)
[quote]Josann wrote:
[quote]666Rich wrote:
If you are looking for BOXING, the good places will not be on groupon, will probably not have a website, and most likely be in shadier parts of town and be run by guys saltier than my balls in 90 degree heat. Theyre worth finding, those gyms, not my balls.
I would encourage a full contact combative sport merely so that you learn to be humble and avoid trouble because you have nothing to prove.[/quote]
This is the best advice a young guy like you can get. Full contact gets that “I need to fight” energy that young guys have and uses it to be productive. Bar fights and all the "whadda you lookin’ at’ stuff that goes on at that stage of life is usually not generated by a need to protect yourself but rather to prove yourself.
Great advice.[/quote]
I never believed this until it happened to me. It’s so true.
Yoitspmart, if you are really serious about self defense, check out the Dynamic Combat Institute in Pheonix. That is one of my instructors (Dynamic Combat Founder and iCAT Martial Arts Co-Founder) Richard Ryan’s school. You aren’t going to get any better training in self defense than Rich is going to teach you. You will learn striking (Rich has world class striking skills and a very easy to learn approach to teaching striking) along with some of the best training out there in terms of confrontational management training, situational self defense, fantastic weapon training (IMO Rich has the best edged weapons defense system out there bar none), grappling and anti grappling skills, and pretty much everything else self defense related.
You’ll also quite possibly at some point get to train with my Primary instructor Walt Lysak Jr and his Brother Charlie Lysak as well as Martial Arts legend and one of the most knowledgeable striking coaches in the world Joe Lewis.
Here is Rich’s website:
Seriously, you are in a rare position being that close to some truly world class Reality Martial Arts instruction, at least go check it out and see for yourself.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
If you are looking for BOXING, the good places will not be on groupon, will probably not have a website, and most likely be in shadier parts of town and be run by guys saltier than my balls in 90 degree heat. Theyre worth finding, those gyms, not my balls.
I would encourage a full contact combative sport merely so that you learn to be humble and avoid trouble because you have nothing to prove.[/quote]
THIS.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
im not sure about krav maga… i kind of really want to look into a legit boxing gym around Arizona[/quote]
See here’s the thing about krav: it really, really, REALLY depends on who is teaching it as to how effective it is. Like any martial arts system, it can be a killer or totally worthless depending on your instructor.
And unlike other arts, there is no competition, so its hard to tell who’s teaching garbage from who’s teaching the real solid art.
The other thing I don’t like is that they kind of tend to become a jack of all trades but master of none - i.e. they know the basics of punching, grappling, and whatever else, but they don’t become GOOD at any of them.
The krav classes I have seen in person, although it’s admittedly not many, did not impress me. Their boxing/punching skills were badly lacking, and any semblance of footwork or angle creating was absent - it was much more “straight on” than any boxing coach would have you do.
But if you can find a good instructor, it can be a really valuable art.
If you truly want to box, though (and I always wanted to as well, before I started) you need to find a good boxing gym. Like 666Rich said, odds are is that you’ll be able to find the phone number but they won’t have a website, or even know how to make one.
That’s kind of how you know you’ve found a good place… it’s all about the fighting, and the “marketing” part is non-existent.
Now, if you’re in Arizona, there’s a shitload of Mexicans and Hispanics there, which means there are going to be some good boxing gyms and a shitload of good boxers to go with them.
Start here: http://www.boxinggyms.com/addresses/arizona.htm
Things that you want to look for:
- amateur fighters
- pro fighters
- Sparring
- Guys who don’t speak English
- a full size ring
- coaches working the pads inside said ring
- a 3 minute bell that NEVER stops tolling
- the smell of sweat and leather
- a small, sometimes shitty, old locker room
Things you don’t want:
- “Boxing class”
- A boxing class taught by a woman (unless its Ann Wolfe or a female fighter)
- White, upper-middle class guys
- Very high monthly rates (normally comes with the above three)
- A gym that teaches “Boxing/MMA/Shotokan/grappling/wrestling/BJJ/Muay Thai.” You want ONLY boxing.
- a place that has rows and rows of bags but no floor space or ring (like KO Boxing or something)
[/quote]
As much as I have enjoyed Krav and learned a ton I think it would be beneficial to have some solid striking under your belt and even some good ground training. I had some great instructors and I had some previous learning from the the military etc. I do notice many people in there who seriously don’t know how to punch and yet they are moving on to more advanced steps.
It is really a great system but like you said how it is taught makes the difference. I have since moved to a different school because going to a Krav School was not cutting it for ring fighting and I came to the realisation that if it dosen’t work there how can it work in the streets… basically because its a diff. situation and you are going to use things that are illegal in the ring… but learning more solid techniques will only make you stronger and more cerebral in your fighting and I am glad I made the move.
Looking at your breakdown of “wants” and “don’t wants” I see many of the don’t wants in my old Krav school. So I think that advice is spot on.
touching on the fight movement aspect, you will have to enroll in “fight” classes to get into that aspect of Krav and they will charge you more money to get into them.
as far as survival techniques and situational defense, hostage situations and weapon defenses Krav is def. good but I have only been in a situation like that 1 time that I can remember and I have been a lot of places. I dropped the Krav link out there because I thought the OP might want to check it out and it is in the area.
I love Krav Maga and am devoted to it, but you say boxing really appeals to you, so I recommend you focus on that. Doing what you enjoy will keep you training longer and harder, which is what it takes to become good. I agree completely with Irish’s list of what to look for in a boxing gym, with the possible exeption of the female instructors - but then again we have Ann Wolf here in Austin, plus Richard Lord’s wife, who is a boxing champion herself.
I think that might be an embarassment of riches regarding experienced female boxers who coach. I suspect he means that a woman teaching boxing (with the types of exceptions he & I gave) indicates the probability more of a cardio workout, which is not incorrect.
I really loved my brief work with a boxing coach, but it didn’t teach me about tearing testicles, ripping heads back by the hair or eyesockets, or grabbing windpipes, etc. I train this type of thing at the Krav studio - but here’s the thing: I need that stuff more than you may. I’m not squaring up against a drunk frat boy to see who is king of the bar. I’m learning how to survive and escape a larger stronger attacker. There is no reason you can’t learn that and learn boxing too, though you should focus on what you love.
OP, look to your own behavior, and that of your friends, to see why you’re meeting with trouble in bars. You say you are able to squash most confrontations before they develop, which is good. The fact that it’s happening repeatedly tells me you or someone in your group is drawing it. Learning to read a room when you enter (or when others enter a room you’re already in) and learning how and when to shut up and leave is a big part of self defense.
You should have a basic understanding of self defense laws in Arizona. You need to learn how to articulate to a police officer and potentially a jury why you did what you did when you did it. Learn to explain why you didn’t just leave. “He was being an asshole” isn’t as effective as “He was clenching his fists and his jaws, he threatened me and when I tried to leave he blocked the exit”.
Krav Maga is definitely an effective system.
But like it was mentioned before it really does depend on who is teaching. I’ve seen some terrible instructors teaching techniques which would leave a student dead or seriously injured in the street. If you can find a KravMagaGlobal school then you can be almost certain the instructor has been trained to an international standard - this standard is high - trust me. Although this is not to say that some less then reasonable instructos slip through.
And it is true that training in a system like KravMaga may leave you ‘spread across the board’ when it comes to different aspects of fighting such as striking, grappling etc. But it is difficult to specialise in one area when a street fight could require skills from any one of those areas. Once again, different instructors will focus on different areas given their personal backround/preferences.
Personally, the majority of my training consists of KravMaga but I also supplement it with other styles to ensure I’m not lacking in any one area. This has been suggested to me by a number of higher-ranking individuals in KMG as the way to go - possibly that could work for you.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yoitspmart, if you are really serious about self defense, check out the Dynamic Combat Institute in Pheonix. That is one of my instructors (Dynamic Combat Founder and iCAT Martial Arts Co-Founder) Richard Ryan’s school. You aren’t going to get any better training in self defense than Rich is going to teach you. You will learn striking (Rich has world class striking skills and a very easy to learn approach to teaching striking) along with some of the best training out there in terms of confrontational management training, situational self defense, fantastic weapon training (IMO Rich has the best edged weapons defense system out there bar none), grappling and anti grappling skills, and pretty much everything else self defense related.
You’ll also quite possibly at some point get to train with my Primary instructor Walt Lysak Jr and his Brother Charlie Lysak as well as Martial Arts legend and one of the most knowledgeable striking coaches in the world Joe Lewis.
Here is Rich’s website:
Seriously, you are in a rare position being that close to some truly world class Reality Martial Arts instruction, at least go check it out and see for yourself.[/quote]
You know I finally looked into Joe Lewis after all of your ranting and raving about him.
I found some old videos online and everything, gotta say, dude knows his stuff. He made me laugh when he said that regardless of all the arts he knows, he still thinks that a good wrestler beats all of them.
Good dude.
[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
I love Krav Maga and am devoted to it, but you say boxing really appeals to you, so I recommend you focus on that. Doing what you enjoy will keep you training longer and harder, which is what it takes to become good. I agree completely with Irish’s list of what to look for in a boxing gym, with the possible exeption of the female instructors - but then again we have Ann Wolf here in Austin, plus Richard Lord’s wife, who is a boxing champion herself.
I think that might be an embarassment of riches regarding experienced female boxers who coach. I suspect he means that a woman teaching boxing (with the types of exceptions he & I gave) indicates the probability more of a cardio workout, which is not incorrect.
I really loved my brief work with a boxing coach, but it didn’t teach me about tearing testicles, ripping heads back by the hair or eyesockets, or grabbing windpipes, etc. I train this type of thing at the Krav studio - but here’s the thing: I need that stuff more than you may. I’m not squaring up against a drunk frat boy to see who is king of the bar. I’m learning how to survive and escape a larger stronger attacker. There is no reason you can’t learn that and learn boxing too, though you should focus on what you love.
OP, look to your own behavior, and that of your friends, to see why you’re meeting with trouble in bars. You say you are able to squash most confrontations before they develop, which is good. The fact that it’s happening repeatedly tells me you or someone in your group is drawing it. Learning to read a room when you enter (or when others enter a room you’re already in) and learning how and when to shut up and leave is a big part of self defense.
You should have a basic understanding of self defense laws in Arizona. You need to learn how to articulate to a police officer and potentially a jury why you did what you did when you did it. Learn to explain why you didn’t just leave. “He was being an asshole” isn’t as effective as “He was clenching his fists and his jaws, he threatened me and when I tried to leave he blocked the exit”.
[/quote]
Great post parker.
And yea, even though you know how sexist I am, I gotta give it up to some female boxers, ESPECIALLY Ann Wolfe. That broad can bang. And not in the fun way.
[quote]SBGuerrilla wrote:
Krav Maga is definitely an effective system.
But like it was mentioned before it really does depend on who is teaching. I’ve seen some terrible instructors teaching techniques which would leave a student dead or seriously injured in the street. If you can find a KravMagaGlobal school then you can be almost certain the instructor has been trained to an international standard - this standard is high - trust me. Although this is not to say that some less then reasonable instructos slip through.
And it is true that training in a system like KravMaga may leave you ‘spread across the board’ when it comes to different aspects of fighting such as striking, grappling etc. But it is difficult to specialise in one area when a street fight could require skills from any one of those areas. Once again, different instructors will focus on different areas given their personal backround/preferences.
Personally, the majority of my training consists of KravMaga but I also supplement it with other styles to ensure I’m not lacking in any one area. This has been suggested to me by a number of higher-ranking individuals in KMG as the way to go - possibly that could work for you.
[/quote]
One thing that I don’t like about krav is the central governing body that declares what moves are “krav” and what ones aren’t.
I remember watching a class and the guy said that they were changing the way they did a wristlock “Because that’s what New York wants us to do now.”
No thinking, no questions, just “this is what they want.” It was like a mandate from a state government about funding or something.
I didn’t know what to make of it.
Do they do this often?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]SBGuerrilla wrote:
Krav Maga is definitely an effective system.
But like it was mentioned before it really does depend on who is teaching. I’ve seen some terrible instructors teaching techniques which would leave a student dead or seriously injured in the street. If you can find a KravMagaGlobal school then you can be almost certain the instructor has been trained to an international standard - this standard is high - trust me. Although this is not to say that some less then reasonable instructos slip through.
And it is true that training in a system like KravMaga may leave you ‘spread across the board’ when it comes to different aspects of fighting such as striking, grappling etc. But it is difficult to specialise in one area when a street fight could require skills from any one of those areas. Once again, different instructors will focus on different areas given their personal backround/preferences.
Personally, the majority of my training consists of KravMaga but I also supplement it with other styles to ensure I’m not lacking in any one area. This has been suggested to me by a number of higher-ranking individuals in KMG as the way to go - possibly that could work for you.
[/quote]
One thing that I don’t like about krav is the central governing body that declares what moves are “krav” and what ones aren’t.
I remember watching a class and the guy said that they were changing the way they did a wristlock “Because that’s what New York wants us to do now.”
No thinking, no questions, just “this is what they want.” It was like a mandate from a state government about funding or something.
I didn’t know what to make of it.
Do they do this often? [/quote]
Yikes! Our system is run out of California, so I can’t speak for New York (which I’m guessing is IKMF?). Our system does change frequently. If something just isn’t working, it’s changed, but there’s always an explanation attached. For instance, we recently changed getting up from the ground to a method that actually offers less protection than the old method, because most people in level 1 aren’t athletic enough yet to do it the old way. We’re now supposed to teach it the new way, but give the old way as an option to people who can do it. If we don’t know why something is done a certain way - well, we’re not allowed to teach a technique until we’ve displayed a thorough understanding & been certified to teach it. But if a student asks a question I don’t know the answer to & I can’t figure it out based on the principles of Krav ( primarily address the immediate danger, give a simultanous counter-attack, & be based on the body’s natural instincts) I’m supposed to admit that I don’t know the answer & find someone who does as soon as it’s practical.
It’s only happened to me a couple of times in several years because our instructor training is really thorough, but I also used it as a chance to collaborate with the students. I’ve got folks who did Tae Kwon Do or boxing for over a decade, cops & soldiers, etc. & we take Krav principles & all our knowledge put together & see what we get. If it’s awesome I tell my instructors & let them deconstruct it or pass it on to L.A.
If I ever taught something and said “because that’s how they told me to” I’d get a major ass chewing.
Where is Krav Maga Global, please? I’m not familiar with it.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]SBGuerrilla wrote:
Krav Maga is definitely an effective system.
But like it was mentioned before it really does depend on who is teaching. I’ve seen some terrible instructors teaching techniques which would leave a student dead or seriously injured in the street. If you can find a KravMagaGlobal school then you can be almost certain the instructor has been trained to an international standard - this standard is high - trust me. Although this is not to say that some less then reasonable instructos slip through.
And it is true that training in a system like KravMaga may leave you ‘spread across the board’ when it comes to different aspects of fighting such as striking, grappling etc. But it is difficult to specialise in one area when a street fight could require skills from any one of those areas. Once again, different instructors will focus on different areas given their personal backround/preferences.
Personally, the majority of my training consists of KravMaga but I also supplement it with other styles to ensure I’m not lacking in any one area. This has been suggested to me by a number of higher-ranking individuals in KMG as the way to go - possibly that could work for you.
[/quote]
One thing that I don’t like about krav is the central governing body that declares what moves are “krav” and what ones aren’t.
I remember watching a class and the guy said that they were changing the way they did a wristlock “Because that’s what New York wants us to do now.”
No thinking, no questions, just “this is what they want.” It was like a mandate from a state government about funding or something.
I didn’t know what to make of it.
Do they do this often? [/quote]
Changes are made whenever a technique can be improved or needs to be changed, usually because one of the very high ranking individuals responsible for the maintenance and organisation of the syllabus has noticed a need for a change in technique. This is sometimes followed blindly and sometimes protested against. Personally I experienced this on my instructor course last year, where one of the Global Team memebers reintroduced basic techniques completely differently to how we had been previously taught, I know it caused a lot of controversey but sure enough after we field texted the ‘new’ techniques they proved to be even more effective.
I guess where it seems like a mandate is in the system of teaching. Usually as instructors we like beginner students to simply listen to us; “this is the technique and that is all that there is, learn it”, its only later that when they begin to grasp the basic principles and ideologies of the system does room for questioning and modification come in.
[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]SBGuerrilla wrote:
Krav Maga is definitely an effective system.
But like it was mentioned before it really does depend on who is teaching. I’ve seen some terrible instructors teaching techniques which would leave a student dead or seriously injured in the street. If you can find a KravMagaGlobal school then you can be almost certain the instructor has been trained to an international standard - this standard is high - trust me. Although this is not to say that some less then reasonable instructos slip through.
And it is true that training in a system like KravMaga may leave you ‘spread across the board’ when it comes to different aspects of fighting such as striking, grappling etc. But it is difficult to specialise in one area when a street fight could require skills from any one of those areas. Once again, different instructors will focus on different areas given their personal backround/preferences.
Personally, the majority of my training consists of KravMaga but I also supplement it with other styles to ensure I’m not lacking in any one area. This has been suggested to me by a number of higher-ranking individuals in KMG as the way to go - possibly that could work for you.
[/quote]
One thing that I don’t like about krav is the central governing body that declares what moves are “krav” and what ones aren’t.
I remember watching a class and the guy said that they were changing the way they did a wristlock “Because that’s what New York wants us to do now.”
No thinking, no questions, just “this is what they want.” It was like a mandate from a state government about funding or something.
I didn’t know what to make of it.
Do they do this often? [/quote]
Yikes! Our system is run out of California, so I can’t speak for New York (which I’m guessing is IKMF?). Our system does change frequently. If something just isn’t working, it’s changed, but there’s always an explanation attached. For instance, we recently changed getting up from the ground to a method that actually offers less protection than the old method, because most people in level 1 aren’t athletic enough yet to do it the old way. We’re now supposed to teach it the new way, but give the old way as an option to people who can do it. If we don’t know why something is done a certain way - well, we’re not allowed to teach a technique until we’ve displayed a thorough understanding & been certified to teach it. But if a student asks a question I don’t know the answer to & I can’t figure it out based on the principles of Krav ( primarily address the immediate danger, give a simultanous counter-attack, & be based on the body’s natural instincts) I’m supposed to admit that I don’t know the answer & find someone who does as soon as it’s practical.
It’s only happened to me a couple of times in several years because our instructor training is really thorough, but I also used it as a chance to collaborate with the students. I’ve got folks who did Tae Kwon Do or boxing for over a decade, cops & soldiers, etc. & we take Krav principles & all our knowledge put together & see what we get. If it’s awesome I tell my instructors & let them deconstruct it or pass it on to L.A.
If I ever taught something and said “because that’s how they told me to” I’d get a major ass chewing.
Where is Krav Maga Global, please? I’m not familiar with it.
[/quote]
There was a huge split within IKMF and as always a lot of controversy surrounding it. Simply put, Eyal Yanilov left the IKMF and founded Krav Maga Global. I was originally an IKMF student but when the split occured, myself and most of us here in Aus moved to KMG to follow Eyal, reason being that Eyal was Imi’s closest student and has been actively advancing Krav Maga over his lifetime.
And yes, I’ve been scortched many a time for saying “but that is how I was taught”, mainly because higher ranking students and Instructors are expected with a high degree of free thinking and problem solving skills.