No worries ActivitiesGuy, I always say Brett Favre and inevitably argue about it for like 5 days even though deep down I know he is probably not the best ever. I prefer his style of play more so than almost any other player I can think of though. It’s why I like Flacco so much. he reminds me of Favre in a handful of ways.
That’s why these conversation are so difficult aliceinchains. There are just too many factors to consider. Rings, stats, era, etc…I mean, Peyton has played in two of the weakest divisions in football during his career. That’s something most people never seem to consider.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
That’s why these conversation are so difficult aliceinchains. There are just too many factors to consider. Rings, stats, era, etc…I mean, Peyton has played in two of the weakest divisions in football during his career. That’s something most people never seem to consider. [/quote]
I know this thread I about football, but if anyone’s ever read Bill Simmons’ basketball book, he get into this at length: how external factors and luck play a huge role in pro sports careers. And this happens at all levels, from greatness on down to guys who might be borderline roster guys in the wrong system that become studs with the right coach, or the right supporting cast (Wes Welker, I am convinced, would have gone to waste for a handful of teams who would have just looked at him and thought “too small, maybe we can use him as a kick returner”)
Jerry Rice was incredible. How much of his success had to do with playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young? A shitload, but can you really hold that against him - wasn’t HE part of the reason Montana and Young enjoyed so much success? It’s also worth noting that he caught 92 passes for the Raiders when he was 40 years old. I don’t think we can explain his success just with “he played with great QB’s” - he turned Rich Gannon from career journeyman into Pro Bowl QB in his late thirties.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
That’s why these conversation are so difficult aliceinchains. There are just too many factors to consider. Rings, stats, era, etc…I mean, Peyton has played in two of the weakest divisions in football during his career. That’s something most people never seem to consider. [/quote]
I know this thread I about football, but if anyone’s ever read Bill Simmons’ basketball book, he get into this at length: how external factors and luck play a huge role in pro sports careers. And this happens at all levels, from greatness on down to guys who might be borderline roster guys in the wrong system that become studs with the right coach, or the right supporting cast (Wes Welker, I am convinced, would have gone to waste for a handful of teams who would have just looked at him and thought “too small, maybe we can use him as a kick returner”)
Jerry Rice was incredible. How much of his success had to do with playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young? A shitload, but can you really hold that against him - wasn’t HE part of the reason Montana and Young enjoyed so much success? It’s also worth noting that he caught 92 passes for the Raiders when he was 40 years old. I don’t think we can explain his success just with “he played with great QB’s” - he turned Rich Gannon from career journeyman into Pro Bowl QB in his late thirties.[/quote]
Oh absolutely. Plus, what if Rice was in his prime right now? With the way rules have shifted in favor of offenses he’d probably be damn near unstoppable. On the flip side, do we even know who Neon Deon is?
good point about Deion Sanders, you are the first person to list a defender. Which brings up who is the greatest defensive player ever. A lot of names to throw around: Lawrence taylor, deion sanders, mel blout, reggie white, rod woodson, ray lewis, derrick thomas.
Zinadine Zidane.
tweet
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
The reason I say rings are only part of it is that by that logic terry bradshaw is one of the greatest. If those 70’s steelers had roger staubach as a quarterback they would have won 7 or 8 super bowls. Bradshaw is garbage[/quote]
Bradshaw is Garbage? Really? If? If? If? If frogs had wings they wouldn’t be bumping their ass on the ground. I thought this was about the best real player on a real team not the best if this player played on this team this is how it would have played out. My best player ever has an award named after him. He deserved it! Dick Butkus.
Eric Dickerson and Deion Sanders are in the conversation
And since he’s catching TDs from both sides now, JJ Watt on that trajectory as well
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
If I had the choice to pick any player in the history of the nfl, it would be very hard for me to pass up John Elway. [/quote]
O_o
Great player. Lost a bunch of Super Bowls and couldn’t win until Terrell Davis showed up. [/quote]
Reallllllly not a fan of the RINGZZ argument. So much stuff outside of a QBs control factors in. If the Seahawks give it to Marshawn at the end of the game, we’re talking about Clutch Russell Wilson and his back to back titles while also saying “Man, Brady is great, but he’s lost his last three Super Bowls, are we sure he is really CLUTCH? Is Tom Brady still an ELITE quarterback in today’s NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE?” - and that’s all because of a play call out of their control (and if you watch that play unfold, it’s pretty hard to blame Wilson for the INT because a quarter-second before he released the ball it looked perfect).
Alternatively, if two different Giants WRs don’t make two INSANE catches, we’re talking about Brady with SIX rings, and Eli having zero.
So that’s one reason I dislike any RINGZ reference (in football; anyway. Basketball is a little different because one guy can exercise a lot more control over games)
Besides, why should it matter whether a guy won SB’s at the end of his career instead of the beginning?
Until the Pats won this Super Bowl and ruined the exercise, one cool juxtaposition was to imagine Tom Brady’s career from 2013-2001 unfolding in reverse. You’d have him losing a SB in his third season, then again in his seventh, and the way guys are judged these days (we live in a world where Bengals fans want to get rid of a QB that’s taken them to the playoffs four straight seasons after two decades of general suckiness) it’s not hard to imagine he’d have been facing the same “can’t win the big one” labels that Peyton Mannig has (unfairly) dealt with his entire career. Then he’d win 3 in 4 years to end his career and we’d say “yeah, Brady was a great player, but he never won it all until the end of his career when he had a great defense.”
Note: I tend to be extra defensive of players in general because I played the game for a long time and it’s fucking hard to be ANY good at it, and it always pisses me off to hear anyone saying someone “sucks” or “I could do that” - I still remember this punk ass kid when I was a freshman in college talking all kinds I trash about Chad Pennington, saying Pennington was a pussy and he’d kick his ass (the kid was probably a buck 40; Pennington was 6-3 and 225 and used to staring down NFL pass rushers).
Anyways. So yeah, I defend all players. /thread jack [/quote]
You lost me at Bill Simmons
I rest my case
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
Bradshaw is garbage[/quote]
What?
In an era when O-Linemen couldn’t use their hands; quarterbacks didn’t wear skirts, and D-Backs were allowed to defend; Bradshaw led teams won eight AFC central titles and four Super Bowls. He also called his own plays from the huddle and had the respect of his teammates. When circumstances are taken into consideration; he is the conversation.
**I’ve never liked the GOAT argument…one may be the greatest in ‘a moment of time’; but that’s about as far as it goes.
Did you see Terry Bradshaw play? No way was he garbage. Great player.
I’ve had season tickets to Patriots games for 20 years. One of the best highlights was
watching Steve Young throw a 15 yard slant to Rice who took it 80 yards.
I couldn’t believe how slow the game was for Brett Favre around 2002. Or in warmups how hard Elway could throw a football.
One time from our seats watching Mark Duper run a 20 yard out and at the moment he turned his head the ball hit him in the hands. God was Dan Marino great.
Watching Peyton Manning just annihilate the Patriots one Monday night game in 2006/2007
Some of the passes that Tom Brady has made where television doesn’t do the touch he put on the ball justice.
Watching Barry Sanders slice and dice in the early 90’s
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
Bradshaw is garbage[/quote]
Easy…
Jim Brown or Jerry Rice
Greatest RB or Greatest WR of all time. Take your pick
For longevity argument have to go with Jerry Rice and Emmit Smith on Offense.
I mean they both produced at a high level for a LONG time.
Sanders and Sayers had brilliant short lived careers.
Defense I have to go with Reggie White : )
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
For longevity argument have to go with Jerry Rice and Emmit Smith on Offense.
I mean they both produced at a high level for a LONG time.
Sanders and Sayers had brilliant short lived careers.
Defense I have to go with Reggie White : ) [/quote]
Reggie was a great player. I’m surprised no one has nominated LT.
[quote]silverblood wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
For longevity argument have to go with Jerry Rice and Emmit Smith on Offense.
I mean they both produced at a high level for a LONG time.
Sanders and Sayers had brilliant short lived careers.
Defense I have to go with Reggie White : ) [/quote]
Reggie was a great player. I’m surprised no one has nominated LT.[/quote]
I believe those two changed the game, as far as how OL were drafted.
A lot of really smart players will tell you that Reggie was a freak of nature.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]silverblood wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
For longevity argument have to go with Jerry Rice and Emmit Smith on Offense.
I mean they both produced at a high level for a LONG time.
Sanders and Sayers had brilliant short lived careers.
Defense I have to go with Reggie White : ) [/quote]
Reggie was a great player. I’m surprised no one has nominated LT.[/quote]
I believe those two changed the game, as far as how OL were drafted.
A lot of really smart players will tell you that Reggie was a freak of nature. [/quote]
Offensive players will always get most of the nods as GOAT. The defensive players are my top choices. The season that Chicago only won 1 game Butkus was still Defensive player of the year.
When you start talking about greatest player every I think you have to look at the talent gap between them and the next best person at their position. And Good Lord at guy saying Jerry Rice doesn’t count and then picking Elway. WTF.
Brady finally winning a Superbowl as more than a game manager this year and Peyton blowing one with a good D is starting to sway me on that conversation a little bit. But I would still probably pick Johnny U because of his ability in his era as my best qb. And the biggest gap between a position and the next best player at that position would be Reggie White.
Reggie White is my GOAT player, with Johnny U and Jim Brown getting honorable mentions.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
facing the same “can’t win the big one” labels that Peyton Mannig has (unfairly) dealt with his entire career. [/quote]
I’d say… It’s very fair to mention that. Without question.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
facing the same “can’t win the big one” labels that Peyton Mannig has (unfairly) dealt with his entire career. [/quote]
I’d say… It’s very fair to mention that. Without question.[/quote]
I’m not sure how it’s unfair either. It’s a pretty accurate assessment I think.