Part of defending yourself is also getting over the fight or flight condition. If someones attacking you already…you have to keep your wits about you and mitigate the situation physically and in your mind.
Thats why finding a school that employs preparation techniques for pratical usage of the self-defense that their teaching is crucial. Running “real life” drills and group attack simulations can help a person in a real situation, where at that point its all wits and muscle memory. I don’t care what you learn…none of it is going to help you if you bitch-out or freeze up.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Its very interesting to me that most people on this thread seem to think boxing is the end all and be all for self defense and street fighting. Is this a true sentiment for the tone of the last couple pages of this thread? Cause last time I checked using your feet can be pretty damn useful too.
Most people don’t expect you to kick in a streetfight
75% of people throw a circular round punch, something resembling a hook as their first attack.
Shin Kicks, foot stomps, groin shots, kicks to the knees, shin scrapes can be very useful.
These are techniques employed in many “Self- defense for the street” martial arts ie, Pen-chak Silat, Krav Maga
[/quote]
There’s nothing wrong with shin kicks, foot stomps, etc. I agree they’re very useful… but they’re easy to do and require little practice.
The kicks you need to practice all the time are the ones that are up above the waist- and they’re the ones that are much more dangerous to you than the other guy if yuo use them.
You can buy Kelly McCann’s “Combatives for street survival” book, practice the shit out of those moves, and be just as dangerous as any black belt.
Again- there are techniques that are very good that boxing doesn’t teach, of course. But in my opinion, the athleticism, reflexes, punching in combinations, etc. that boxing hones are worth more than most techniques.
And also- for shit like your ears, I’ve seen a shitload of fights in my life, and it’s not as easy to rip that thing off as Sensei McBadass makes it out to be.
As shown in that video, boxing can be very effective with more than one person- you’re staying on your feet, staying balanced, and hitting hard and fast while moving away. I can’t think of anything better to do when faced with multiple opponents.
[quote]
Correct me if im wrong but the tone of some of these posts seem to imply “Don’t bother with any other Martial Arts bullshit, just do some boxing and you’ll be fine!” If thats the attitude than id like to respectively disagree.[/quote]
That’s probably the tone of my posts. I’ve lost a lot of respect for most martial arts teachers after studying more realistic things.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
I don’t care what you train in…Sport Martial arts…or “Show” martial arts…training in any of these styles can help you if you let it. You simply have to employ the “pratical” uses of what the art is giving you. Train Wushu or any other martial art that involves tricking, stunting or acrobatics? Fine.
That doesn’t mean if you get into a fight you’ll start flipping all over the place…but you know what? Learning those techniques do take a matter of skill…and despite the “showiness” of a certain art…it just might teach you how to be more evasive…more quick and light on your feet…and more sure footed. Even a gymnast learns that to complete various stunting, tumbling or tricking moves it requires a measure of sure footedness…and having your feet under you properly is a tool anyone can use.
[/quote]
Nah, this shit’ll get you killed and its a damned waste of time when confrontations are over inside of 5 seconds.
You want to learn acrobatics, join the fuckin circus.
That’s fair. That was my point before. But how much time do they devote to techniques that are only meant to win comps?
I’m not arguing against knowing any other skills. I’m saying that for someone who wants a solid base for streetfighting, learn to throw hands first. Then move on to other things.
Agreed again. But no one had to teach me to rake the eyes or try to rip out the adam’s apple.
[quote]
Ya see, self defense is about a couple of things.
1.GUARD
2.PROTECT
3.STRIKE
4.ADAPT
5.ESCAPE
In no particular order. Thats what I would call phase two of street defense. Phase One?
SELF AND SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
AVOIDANCE
In no particular order as well. Thats because something surprising can happen that can make you immediately go from Avoidance to strike…or self and situational Awareness to Adapt or escape. Kind of like getting jumped in broad daylight…or being robbed or attacked in a typically safe neighborhood.
This is also the case if you have your girlfriend, friend, wife or kid with you. A situation that would normally cause you to strike might result in you protecting…adapting or escaping because of a loved one with you and the entangibles of the situation.
BEING close minded and saying this one fighting style or one martial art is the shit and I don’t need anything else is the perfect recipe for getting fucked up. Work through the Phases and keep things simple cause pull arm in, lift elbow, sweep leg, drop in and lock arm bar might be a ton to remember in an adrenaline fused situation…but if a different part of the situation is presented to you…at least you’ll know what to do.[/quote]
I’m not saying that any art is useless. I’m saying that many teachers of TMA’s are useless, and the stuff you learn in their dojo is enough to give you just enough confidence to get you killed in a real streetfight.
My thing is, if you’re going to be fighting, learn the art that teaches you to hit hard, repeatedly, from all angles, and also teaches you not to get hit.
It’s also likely to be the one that’s taught the most similar no matter what boxing gym in the country you go into… not like other arts, where you could have eight different teachers teaching eight different things inside three blocks from each other, all the while calling it “Goju-ryu”
FightinIrish26…I respect your take on things and appreciate the fact that you can be honest on your opinion. However the ear thing is science not so much “Master Knowsitallguru” Involved. Technically its 4-7lbs of pressure. The pressure being your hand or foot on the person’s face and the rip/tear action of your opposite hand.
If your not cool with certain instructors for not doing a martial art justice then blame the intructor not the art.
Boxing alone did help that dude in your video wonderfully and I applaud what he did. But being attacked by multiple people is not a COOKIE CUTTER situation. He couldve just as easily been grabbed from behind or have tripped over a fallen person or object while backing up. you’ve gatta adapt.
And although I do agree with you that shin kicks and such are very basic…its connecting the moves together which gives you the best chance and higer success rate for escape/defense.
Some of the best Self-defense techniques are simple moves or concepts tied together. Ive got love for boxing believe it or not. I really do! I mean half of kickboxing…is well…BOXING! So im not hating on it at all. I just think in order to be completely confident in defending yourself leave no stone unturned.
And this might be just me…but I rather search for a school thats going to tie all the techniques together I explained above rather than train at a school that specializes in only ONE area of self-defense. Heck, right now Ive got an oppourtunity to train at a fighter’s school who boxed Leigh la Ali and has trained other succesful amateurs as well. I do plan on going over there and working on improving the “boxing” part of my kickboxing…but if you think ima forget everything else youve got another thing coming.
I see we mostly agree…lol but we’re going to have to respectively disagree on some other points.
I also don’t think you got my point earlier on Showy or stunt martial arts. The tumbling and tricking repeatedly wouldnt help you directly in a self-defense situation 95% of the time. But the added sure-footedness, agility and speed would help you tremendously.
Again…that stuff can be learned by doing other things. But my point is no matter what you train in, for a real life situation you’ve got to take what practical lessons or techniques its given you and apply it. Shit juggling can help you defend yourself because of improved hand eye-coordination…it doesnt mean you’ll start juggling tennis balls when attacked lol. Just to keep the circus theme going.
Since we’re involved in an educated convo and not a flame fest, please explain to me the difference between one “Sport” Martial art and another. I mean…Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling are all sport martial arts. What makes Boxing the best choice outta the three?
Brock Lesnar was a DiV 1 wrestler who knew how to throw a punch. If your educated enough you can learn how to throw a straight jab or hook and cross without stepping in a boxing ring. Granted that doesnt make you good at boxing…but youve got strength in wrestling…or something else right?
I agree kicking above the waist can harm you if you don’t know what your doing. But people who get messed up from kicking in a street fight are usually throwing the kick waaaay too slow to begin with. I mean its the same with MMA. Landing effective kicks is all about speed and location.
Kicking someone’s knee out is a very potent strike in a streetfight. In one fail swoop you can totally tear someones acl or multiple tendons. Depending on your application it can require you to bring your leg physically above your own waist…but it doesnt make the strike non-effective.
Again the fact that a martial art is more sport oriented does not equate to its effectiveness in a real life situation. Even early boxing was a means of self defense and was gladiatorial as well…which is more of a fight for your life than a sport anyways.
I’ve seen a lot of “boxing” or “judo”, which you do need to train on. You also need to practice a fight. Have a buddy of yours get the practice boxing stuff on, and go to town. No holding back, just like if it was the real deal. You are not going to want to use protective stuff, because then when you get hit for the first time by this guy you will either:
Go into a state called blind-rage. I’m pretty sure everyone heard of it, but you don’t really think when you get mad enough.
start to cry, and he will just stomp you
get KO’ed since you body is not used to the pain, and that is the last thing you want.
So get trained on being hit really, and learn to defend yourself, because that is 3/4 the battle.
Anyone can throw a punch. Its being able to block or avoid it, and if you cant, take it.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
I also don’t think you got my point earlier on Showy or stunt martial arts. The tumbling and tricking repeatedly wouldnt help you directly in a self-defense situation 95% of the time. But the added sure-footedness, agility and speed would help you tremendously.
[/quote]
Nah. That shit’d get you killed. It’s useless.
I know what you’re saying, and I guess in a fight a degree of natural athletic ability could possibly help you. But then again, it might not, being as none of that equates to knowing how to punch. That’s one of those things where if it helps you in any degree, you’re lucky and you should appreciate it. But most likely, it won’t.
Well there’s no difference between boxing and MT as far as usefulness. MT might even be more useful because you’re allowed to use elbows and knees.
I’m not a huge fan of wrestling because it involves lots of groundwork obviously, but I have known some wrestlers that were tremendously tough bastards and great streetfighters so I’ve got to give it up to them.
Although like I said- it wouldn’t be my primary thing for streetfighting, per se.
Well yea. But Brock Lesnar is the exception to all of the rules, not the rule itself, due to his freakish size and strength.
You don’t kick above the waist in the street. If you do, and you get away with it, you’re so fucking lucky that it’s unbelieveable.
I learned this in my younger days when a kid tried to kick me once. I caught his leg and threw him through a door.
In real life, there’s far too many variables involved, especially those that come from slipping or missing.
C’mon. that’s not what I meant. You know that. I’m talking some B-roll MMA knockout footage featuring high kicks to the head.
[quote]
Again the fact that a martial art is more sport oriented does not equate to its effectiveness in a real life situation. Even early boxing was a means of self defense and was gladiatorial as well…which is more of a fight for your life than a sport anyways.[/quote]
No it doesnt. I understand that. But my point to this whole thing is that boxing teaches you, and then drills you incessantly, on the basic things you need to win a streetfight. That’s speed, power, combinations, and how to slip, parry, duck, and move while balanced. That’s better than 90 percent of the bullshit “Killer fighting arts” you’re going to find out there.
It doesn’t mean that nothing else works, and it doesn’t mean that it solves every problem, because it doesn’t. But for what the OP was talking about, and for what most people have in mind when they say “fight,” it works better than anything else I’ve seen.
There’s a reason that Whitey Bulger recruited hired muscle out of Boston’s boxing gyms, not its karate schools. That sport teaches you to be two things that you need in a real brawl- agressive and violent. I’ll take it.
And if you’d like to answer, can you do it in one post? I feel like there’s stuff I’m skipping over because I don’t have the time to answer the strings you been posting up.
Irish, I agree with pretty much everything you said in your response to my last post (getting too damn long to continue quoting).
If someone has the choice between a McDojo and a boxing gym, I’d tell them to pick the boxing gym as well. If someone has the choice between a boxing gym and a good quality reality martial arts school though, and their reason for training is primarily for self defense purposes, then I’d say pick the RMA school (assuming the instructor was a quality one).
And yes, I do consider myself lucky for having received the training from the quality instructors that I have, and fully realize that not everyone is so lucky. I also acknowledge that for those less fortunate than myself, doing as you have done and trying to put the pieces together as best they can from multiple sources such as boxing, wrestling, and other sport martial arts is often the best way to go. In other words, making the best with what you’re given.
Well I’ll try lol it always feels like im writing a book. All im sayin is any life experience…any athletic training be it gymnastics or weightlifting you can use to your advantage to gain an upper edge in a fight. I mean added gymnastic training just might help you escape from a fight to begin with.
Im not advocating doing any “movie martial arts” in a real fight and I think thats where your getting me wrong. You keep saying “That Shit will get you killed” and im not saying to do that stuff in a real fight. BUT, concepts from various athletic endeavors can be a boon in your favor.
I think you understand the jist of what im saying I guess its for my own clarification. I don’t want people to surmise the wrong ideology from the concepts that im trying to explain.
Its more than conceptual too. Its all about using your best tools. And there’s more than one way to sharpen your skill-set. Like I said…we mostly agree but are going to have to respectively disagree on some smaller points.
This thread has been really awesome. It’s nice to see people actually having a discussion on here rather than baiting each other with bullshit responses.
[quote]Neverhavemoney wrote:
I’ve seen a lot of “boxing” or “judo”, which you do need to train on. You also need to practice a fight. Have a buddy of yours get the practice boxing stuff on, and go to town. No holding back, just like if it was the real deal. You are not going to want to use protective stuff, because then when you get hit for the first time by this guy you will either:
Go into a state called blind-rage. I’m pretty sure everyone heard of it, but you don’t really think when you get mad enough.
start to cry, and he will just stomp you
get KO’ed since you body is not used to the pain, and that is the last thing you want.
So get trained on being hit really, and learn to defend yourself, because that is 3/4 the battle.
Anyone can throw a punch. Its being able to block or avoid it, and if you cant, take it.
[quote]Neverhavemoney wrote:
I’ve seen a lot of “boxing” or “judo”, which you do need to train on. You also need to practice a fight. Have a buddy of yours get the practice boxing stuff on, and go to town. No holding back, just like if it was the real deal. You are not going to want to use protective stuff, because then when you get hit for the first time by this guy you will either:
Go into a state called blind-rage. I’m pretty sure everyone heard of it, but you don’t really think when you get mad enough.
start to cry, and he will just stomp you
get KO’ed since you body is not used to the pain, and that is the last thing you want.
So get trained on being hit really, and learn to defend yourself, because that is 3/4 the battle.
Anyone can throw a punch. Its being able to block or avoid it, and if you cant, take it.
Wish ya the best bud,
Ben[/quote]
Has anyone tried this? Sounds like good training.[/quote]
Hard sparring has it’s place in training, but training like this on a regular basis (especially beginners) isn’t a recipe for longevity. Sure you’ll get tough, but you’ll also likely incur some brain damage, and might wind up with serious neurological or physical problems later in life. This would be like the people who rush into body toughening training and wind up crippled later in life because of it.
You’ve got to spend at least as much time on other aspects like physical conditioning, technique mastery, and training strategies as you do sparring, let alone full out free sparring. And that’s just the physical skills. Let’s not forget the stuff that is even more likely to get you out of trouble such as awareness training, de-escalation skills (verbal and postural self defense), not putting yourself in situations where you’re likely to have to defend yourself in the first place.
But yeah, you do have to test your skills in as realistic of a setting as possible (while still surviving the training of course) at some points in training to see if you can actually use them effectively.
Man I just got home from the clubs haha I saw quite a bit of shit go down there…fists flying, bottles goin everywhere…everyone from the clubs/bars was running over to see what was going down…I don’t care what anyone says…that shit is pure entertainment lol.
OK Frozen and Irish, I think I know what everyone is thinking. We do an exhibition match, you two. Videotape it. Post it. Wushu vs Boxing, lets goooooooo!
[quote]rasturai wrote:
Man I just got home from the clubs haha I saw quite a bit of shit go down there…fists flying, bottles goin everywhere…everyone from the clubs/bars was running over to see what was going down…I don’t care what anyone says…that shit is pure entertainment lol.[/quote]
You’re still drunk my friend, lol.
–
A little update for anyone who cares.
So boxing has gotten better, my endurance is up, jump roping actually lasts more than a few jumps. I’m beginning to think much faster when I spar, almost like it is in slow motion. Ducking hook punches is relatively easier than I thought it would be, considering my height.
Still can’t seem to relax while I’m fighting, the instructor keeps telling me to calm down and that I’m too tense. Right hook is my new favorite punch, my reach really allows for a nice one. Cannot seem to generate any significant power from my jab yet.
I still can’t go the entire 3 minute round of sparring, almost there. But so far so good, the guy hasn’t really bothered me much.
P.S. On an interesting note, my squat pre-boxing was 305x3 and now that I have been reguarly jump roping for 3 weeks, my calves have built some strength and two days ago I got 315x10, so that was interesting. Deadlift has gone down 10 lbs.
My wrists don’t hurt during boxing but anytime after, they are in horrible pain, a sort of tendinitis extending down the entire brachioradialis, if anyone has any info, thx…
