Exactly. Where are the studies saying men in the past averaged 1500ng/dl? All studies I can find, from the fucking late 80s, say around 600-800ng/dl.
Alot of claims here, no evidence.
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This whole āEDCā thing seems odd.
If everyone is consuming them in one way shape or form, all men would have symptoms.
How
Come
Omg a certain population is low T symptomatic?
I have to interject one thought to this.
My personal research into HCG led me to believe that it would only be beneficial (from the perspective of raising testosterone levels) if the patient was secondary hypogonadism.
The only benefit that could be inferred (but hasnāt yet been proven) in primary hypogandal patients is that in some studies, higher levels of LH could be associated with healthy adrenal function. This was inferred from one study that I could find, but that study also admitted that the statement was something of note, not something that was conclusively studied or proven.
I personally ran a 6 week experiment on myself (originally intended to go 12 weeks but stopped the experiment early) and my results gave credence to my understating. Myself being primary, I noticed absolutely no real differences in how I felt.
My conclusions were thatā¦if you are secondary, give it a shotā¦if you are primary like meā¦you get off a lot cheaper with fewer holes every week by purchasing a good otc adrenal support supplement.
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So for everyone reading. What eventually happens is you become so sensitive to the T, kidney wise, that you canāt even work out hard.
So these case studies I referred to earlier, there were 5 guys so far and 3 more cited as a reference. So thats 8 case studies.
These guys are taking androgens up to supraphysiological range. Understand it has nothing to do with the dosage, none of these other labs i posted were on anything more than 200mg. It only has to do with the amount of androgens you let accumulate in your body.
So someone that does a cycle, works out hard this tissues goes through the kidneys and impairs them. Takes sups, more impairment, and the kidneys are processing supra levels of androgens.
Someone can get to this same place on āTRTā it just takes longer to get there. You can look at the study @dbossa posted earlier to see this is the truth. People taking 600mg a week for 12 weeks only got up to just over 2,000 TT levels.
You can see from the labs I posted here, a 200mg dosage can get you there as well. So it doesnāt matter how much you take, it matters what your levels are.
So youāre doing all these things and impairing the kidneys, the androgens are allowing you to work out harder than you ever have before, breaking down more muscle tissue and sending it through the kidneys.
So it is a culmination of all these things that leads to actual kidney failure, but all this time you are making lesions on your kidney with this activity and weakening their ability to function under stressful environments.
So if you keep going, eventually you wind up at a point where you canāt even workout, because your kidneys are all scarred up and canāt take it anymore. You have essentially given yourself chronic kidney issues as it described in the case report.
Now can we say it was from testosterone alone? No we canāt. Is it possible that you could take testosterone at supra dosages as long as you didnāt drink, take any supplements or workout too hard? Maybe, but thats not realistic.
If it takes 2 years for these case reports and studies, which was true also in the heart weakening study I posted, it takes about 2 years for them to prove that conclusively. Thats at 675 per week.
The same thing will happen regardless of dosage if you let your levels get and stay that high, its just gonna take longer than 2 years.
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nandrolone isnāt a particularly suitable candidate for long term use. The mechanisms as to WHY it helps joint pain arenāt particularly known nor have they been explored within scientific literature. We have some data stipulating nandrolone may increase collagen synthesisā¦ in postmenopausal women Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during therapy with anabolic steroid or female sex hormones - PubMed Thus one could hypothesise the compound may provide therapeutic relief for those with osteoarthritis and similar ailments. Some evidence suggests (animal models) that nandrolone may acclerate the repair rate regarding rotator cuff injury, however numerous studies exist discrediting this claim, demonstrating LOCALLY administered nandrolone to have a detrimental effect on the overall rate of healing, however systemic administration, as given in the original aforementioned study, was not attempted.
What I find particularly concerning about nandrolone is the effect on neurotransmission and supposed harsh nature on the cardiovascular system.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1601-183X.2008.00458.x.
One could argue these effects regarding neuronal dysfunction exist with all anabolic substances, and this may be true. Previously my belief held the adverse neurological effects (regarding mental state, cognition and whatnot) primarily stemmed towards nandrolone and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, however animal models further indicate testosterone may induce dopaminergic dysfunction
At this point, anecdotal evidence serves as the answerā¦ How many dudes do you see having massive issues on testosterone vs nandrolone? Erectile dysfunction, depression, apathy and lethargy etc, not to say this wonāt occur in individuals using large doses of testosterone, the neurological effects of anabolic steroids affect each and every individual differently, however one would have to admit, nandrolone appears to have a particular reputation in regard to causing issues, and furthermore the data on nandrolone does appear to be somewhat more damning that that on testosterone regarding neurological effects, esp since it appears (within mice/rats) the adverse effects persist for at LEAST 6x the amount of time on!
Furthermore the level of cardio-toxicity (and endothelial dysfunction) induced via nandrolone appears to be far more severe (thereās a study of which endothelial cells in-vitro exposed to ridiculous concentrations of nandrolone, testosterone and nandrolone metabolites found nandrolone to be roughly 11x more damaging to endothelial cells, furthermore dramatic impairment of exercise induced vasodilation, development of autonomic dysfunction (a concern with all anabolics), dramatically increased amts of oxidive stress and more. Granted all anabolics have the potential to cause cardiomyopathy and cardiac dysfunction via both direct and indirect mechanisms, though the jury is still out on what dose causes x amount of harm, there does appear to be a select body of AAS users in good health, esp the individuals who used lower doses back in the day (say not exceeding 5-600mg/wk), genetic factors may play a large roleā¦ How the hell is Ozzy Osbourne still alive?
As an individual with chronic pain, Iāve personally deterred myself from implementing nandrolone within my TRT regiment, I have enough shit factors in my life, I donāt need more complications.
As to whoever is arguing about AAS and nephrotoxicity, anabolics, even testosterone are ABSOLUTELY detrimental to long term kidney function. Sure, testosterone itself tends to be milder in terms of renal damage compared to boldenone, nandrolone, oxandrolone or stanozolol, however the long term implications still exist. AAS use is heavily implicated within the development of FSGS and overall progression towards end stage renal failure, not to say there arenāt ways to mitigate harm, but the use of AAS, extremely high protein diets, creatine, supplements, DIEURETICS and whatnot are kidney killers, itās a risk we knowingly take, thereās no need to beat around the bush or pretend these potential risks donāt exist.
@increasemyt out of curiosity, are you a medical professional? Just curious, and who is dbossa? I donāt use HCG with my T protocol due to pre-existing data regarding leydig cell down regulation.
Furthermore I should point out with regard to many studies of which I publish, mice/rats/animals are not humans, data existing from these studies will likely differ significantly from what we see in our human counterparts. These animals have vastly differing antioxidant, elimination and metabolisation pathways. Look at DHT and other AAS with susceptibility to breakdown via 3-HSD enzyme in rats, still appears to have potent anabolic activity within skeletal muscle, but not for us human counterparts yeet.
@anon18050987, unsure why you believe you donāt belong on this website, youāre array of knowledge is beyond vast and youāre certainly a welcomed addition to this community. As to me staying in school, I graduate soon, then Iām taking a gap year, explore Europe and attempt to figure my shit out before I start university. I intend to help people, through one avenue or another as I feel it would give me purpose
As to the argument at hand hereā¦ Iām not getting involved, I donāt like arguing
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Good callā¦ 
Positive. I canāt remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but FSH and LH were on the very high side and Total T and Free T were both low.
To put it in very crude laymenās termsā¦My pituitary was working it ass off, but the nuts just couldnāt rise to the call lol.
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K, Iāll look at it after school is finished, I tend to leave early most days if I donāt have class towards the end of the day (the educational system here allots many āfree periodsā towards the end of the last year of school, in which Iād rather be at home studying or at gym. Not supposed to but Iāve got a car and it isnāt worth the schoolās time to be checking up on me each time I leave or come in late to ditch a free period, certain days I have LITERALLY 80 minutes of class throughout the entire day, Iām supposed to show up for the entire dayā¦ not happening
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Yes click on my profile will link to the site.
Oh boy here go
Leydig cell desensitization is a myth.
Maybe I should take that back.
Here is what I meant to say, leydig cell desensitization due to FDA approved dosages of HCG is a myth.
AAS no doubt severely desensitizes. This always made me wonder why people were so worried about it anyway honestlyā¦
well whether itās a myth is unknown, ANIMAL MODELS demonstrate Leydig cell desensitisation to be real. Iāve spoken to numerous doctors about the issue, of which Iāve received differing opinions ranging from āLeydig cell desensitisation is a mythā as you previously said, to āitās the real deal, only use if youāre trying to conceiveā. Based on current data we have and differing opinions between medical professionals I tend to eerrrr on the side of caution. Furthermore, I dislike the notion of adding more drugs within my regiment, I take enough medicationā¦ Donāt need more. Besides I donāt particularly see any therapeutic benefit regarding the use of HCG, my LH and FSH are still low-midrange on TRT, hinting at a potentially primary issue, furthermore the chances of me being fertile (given my history and the fertility status of my parentsā¦ I was conceived IVF) are on the lower side. Aside from the aesthetical benefit of larger testicles (assuming I respond to HCG induced stimulation) I donāt see much point, given in Aus I wouldnāt be able to get a script, itād cut up my wallet sourcing pharm grade HCG (which I CAN get, but why would I)
Who said this? 10 weeks doesnāt account for what happens 20 years down the line. Granted Iām currently on a supra dose (for the next 6 wks, 375mg 2 wks then 340mg 4 wks). To say everyone can get away with running supra doses is unequivocally untrueā¦ A select few may be able to get away with it. For instance on doses ranging from 200-250mg/wk, my lipids, LFT, renal panel, HCT/RBC count remain unchanged, actually my HCT dropped. That being said my nadir on 200mg/wk was recently tested to be 540ng/dl (granted it was sustanon, bloods taken on day 5 post shot, and the combination of short+long ester means peak was muuuuuuucccchhhh higher. Iām not going to get away with running supra doses, I guarantee Iāll have issues down the line long term. Furthermore I intend to try my hand in a bodybuilding competition at LEAST once, I can guarantee long term health implications will be present.
@increasemyt Iāll check out youāre website, on a more personal note do you enjoy youāre profession? Endocrinology and/or specialisation in anti-aging style medicine appears to be the field of which interests me the most.
Only in dosages equivalent to over 10,000 IU. I have covered this extensively on the site already.
DāAgata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongiol A, Gulizia S. Testicular Responsiveness to Chronic Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Administration in Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1982;55(1):76-80.
**
Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17{beta}-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17{alpha}-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17{alpha}-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.
Thomas O Connor is a legend! His youtube channel is amazing, esp for those who are uneducated yet want to cycle, oblivious towards the risks. watching his videos has the potential to deter many young, naive or ignorant individuals.
Granted I fall into the category of āyoung idiot who cyclesā, with doses having never exceeded 250mg/wk until this week, but hah Iām immortal, nothing bad will ever happen to ME (sarcasm)
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He is a little cookey sometimes but I love the guy, Get him on the phone though and he wonāt let you get a word in lol
Many medical professionals tend to be cocky, and I donāt blame them half the time. Theyāre surrounded in an environment in which theyāre treating individuals with far less knowledge than that of themselves. It really comes down to the individual as to how it shapes a person, some develop a god like complex and become arrogant, however these individuals tend to be like that prior to becoming a medical practitioner. I have a cousin (my age) who is extremely arrogant and full of himself, he works his ass off and due to the fact that his parents haveā¦ a LOT of money is being accepted into a course regarding undergrad medicine overseas, he is going to come back behaving like the biggest assholeā¦ seriously he thinks he knows EEEVVVEERRRYYYTHING, and if heās wrong, he wonāt admit it and may even become aggressive and hostile.
Then you get individuals (other members of my family) who practice medicine and said individuals are very humble, donāt bloat about their intellect and knowledge of all things medical. Doctors in the end of the day are just people, we all have flaws. MOST people, if surrounded in an environment similar to that of the environment many medical practitioners find themselves in, would develop some type of god complex.
I canāt tell if this is sarcasm or not? Are you saying in this massive, 826 post thread thatāll take me a good couple of hours to go through there is a protocol for enhanced TRT in which I can make phat gainz without heart gainz?
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yeet
Nailed it
Iāll be sure to check out this protocol after the next six weeks of heart gainz and renal annihilation.
Iām isolating my left ventricle to grow as large as possible, CONCENTRICALLY, I want such a concentrically enlarged left ventricle that it blocks off any semblance of blood supply to said ventricle, Heart rate at 500BPM for the win, the end goal is to induce ventricular fibrillation
I kinda figured lol, autism makes it very difficult for me to differentiate between sarcasm and seriousness though, however on occasions like this I appear to be able to sense sarcasm with a decent level of accuracy.
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