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I never disagreed. What exactly are you trying to get my to agree with? That high hct is harmful! No itās not unless we have other factors like RBC and hemoglobin showing a cause for concern. Plenty of guys here think along the same lines.
Iām against looking at one lab range and saying go give blood because you might hve a stroke. Itās not true.
Sure I believe their is a limit , but across the board men should expect higher hct when starting trt. Itās a sign that you have more oxygen in your blood and your body is thanking you for it. This is part of why we feel more energy and feel alive on TRT. Without symptoms I see no reason to worry.
Sure keep an eye on it if it bothers you, but donāt go crashing fertinin levels because of a single lab range that is a compass for all men from large to small, Asian to Caucasian. As far as we know some men have the genetics to have high hct while others like me have always had low.
Please donāt confuse what I am saying with ālet hct raise and donāt care how high it goesā or āone should never give blood regardless of what lab work saysā.
I think he gets it brotherā¦
The problem is that the approach you guys have really throws caution to the wind. You guys are footloose and fancy free, and good for you, but for most of the sane worldā¦
When you start fucking with matters of the heartā¦you usually only get one chance to get it wrongā¦most of us like to play in familiar pastures and leave the experimentation to you daredevilsā¦
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Ofcourse and I heard you the first time, but I am not saying anything with anger or being pushy or arrogant. . Have you seen the cursing and outright nonsensical responses to sensible and basic questions I posted. Itās pointless now, but I would say it was logical and simple and to the point.
When I see someone making an outright false claim Iām going to debate the point. Folks who come here in a month or years in the future should be able to see that there is zero evidence to support this persons comments.
I am seeing some of the hate these guys brought and I am curious how you are not seeing this .
I am not making lavish claims. Whatās happening is they have a preconceived notion that I automatically wantf folks to have a hct of 58, donāt give blood, raise estradiol to 100 or more (because ya know we all need 200 e2) and increase your free t dose so that itās beyond 50. And somewhere I said itās alll healthy and all men should maintain these levels. Wtf?
Imagine being in my shoes and hearing what you jsut wrote to me. Surely you didnāt read the cunundrum Of responses from all parties today. If you did, then surely you would stop calling me out.
Or do you not like the fact that Iām so adamant about my stance on trt . Iāve said it many times. Produce some real evidence or literature and Iāll read it. not irrelevant nonsense and labs without any legitimate history. Body builders are not trt. If a BB has renal failure or liver kidney issues it canāt be T alone. All assumptions. Zero evidence or even basic logic was had. Yet I have to deal with this nonsense and then be told Iām Not bending and accepting of all opinions.
I donāt think thatās a fair comment Brady. You seem to think Iām the guy whose cursing and being aggressive. Iām the guy who is asking for legit evidence on the crazy comments they made. Desensitization of receptors, Free t kills and causes issues if high and more. I have sources saying otherwise . From educated research experts who are well respected in the field. A doctor who is a close friend and top student of doctor Rouzier. Everything I say is backed up by Dr. Rouzier who teaches hormone docs and doesnāt even practice anymore.
I havenāt seen these guys reference any legitimate professionals in any of their posts. When they do that I will listen and adapt any info that is real and legit. Until then Iām not going to rest my wellness on some guy who canāt answer a few simple questions.
What is this experimentation that you speak of? Please elaborate so we can realize you are also having preconceived notions simply because I donāt agree with the bro science of past.
@increasemyt @anon18050987
A little summary please:
So even though you argued each other a lot, both of you do not accept bossa and dr Nicholsās views on hormone optimization? I understand you do not accept the high levels they want to maintain?
But what about the daily injections? If I start TRT I want daily injections. My logic is super simple. I want steady levels. What dose - I guess will need to find out for me.
What do you think is my chance with HCG mono ED 100 UI? Many do not agree on the issue of leydig cells dessentization, but with this dose shouldnāt be issue, right? Should I except too much rise of estrogen or prolactin spike on HCG?
Hey, Iām one of those daredevils sir. #suddencardiacdeathatage35
WEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL, not that this has ever been documented as bodybuilders tend to stack multiple compounds, if, for some reason a bodybuilder and/or strength athlete was to only use absurdly large doses of testosterone, eat a very high protein diet and whatnot for decades on end, kidney issues would MORE than likely still become apparent. Test is still nephrotoxic in high enough doses, and yeaā¦ test is cardiotoxic and all that jazz at high enough doses, test only cycles can certainly be extremely harmful if the dose is high enough, the notion testosterone is safe is simply untrue, itās āSAFERā than other traditional anabolics (aside from maybe metenolone, however metenolone is harsher on the lipids so ehhh)
test causing a dose dependent, but non-significant, dose dependent increase in kidney volume and significant increase in hepatic size
I canāt stress this enough, if youāre on cycle, adding in regular LISS and/or regular aerobic training into youāre regiment will go a long way with regard to helping with longevity and harm minimisation. Lower BP, increased parasympathetic tone (although AAS use will somewhat blunt this adaptation), healthier blood vessels, lower cholesterol, blablabla, though there is a cutoff point, excess endurance training has somewhat been linked to abnormal and/or deleterious morphological changes in the heart, particularly the development of cardiac fibrosis, atrial fibrillation and whatnot, the jury is still out as to whether it exactly causes harm though. Furthermore exhaustive aerobic training on a frequent basis does encourage the production of free radicalsā¦ So when I say implement cardio, donāt go running a marathon 4x/wkā¦
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Hanging out in the showers at the YMCA doesnāt really count as relevant field experience.
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thatās a serious burn. What are we criticising op for? I have yet to go through this thread.
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Does/did Dr Bhossa advocate individuals using large doses of gear long term?
the dosages threshold of what constitutes as supra will vary from person to person. If one has a natural baseline of 40nmol (say 1100ng/dl) with high range/above range free T, and for whatever reason injectable test has a low bioavailability and/or they metabolise and/or eliminate said test veeerrry quickly and 100mg e3.5d causes a peak of 800ng/dl with high range free T and a nadir of 600ng/dl with mid-range free T, 200mg isnāt going to cause problems long term, 300mg likely wouldnāt either. However for others 100mg/wk will cause a vastly supra physiologic peak and trough will still be above range, itās all individualistic, thereās no set dose for everyone as there is a bell-curve, some are simply outliers.
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If I for example were to start TRT, where my current free T we calculated to be around 9ng/dl, what number should I try to target for symptom relief - to be good enough but safe in your opinion - around 20ng/dl which is the upper range of the scale?
I know we are unique and everybody needs different number for symptoms, but just as some initial guideline.
Heās not a doctor, just a parrot for one. They advocate for increasing t until symptom resolution and state that 30ng/dl free t is about where most feel it. I believe they said 30ng/dl to 50ng/dl is the range they shoot for.
They also do not care where e2 lands so wherever they end up it is all good.
Should also add they do everyday injections or cream, so peak and trough do not vary much.
Cream definitely raised my hematocrit (43 to 49)but I canāt tell you if it was just the t or if it was from the near constant levels of applying daily. I believe that is what you are referring to in your response.
Based on the last ~200 replies I assumed that this thread was no longer being taken seriously. Itās essentially a WWI trench battle where nobody advances but they keep shooting at each other anyway.
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Brother, if you read what I wrote as a ācall-outā, then thereās not much we could accomplish through civil conversation. I simply stated that the viewpoints presented by your side of the fence, in context of the relevant topic of pushing test levels as āhigh as you have to in order to āfeelā better, and then following that up with statements saying high HCT is no cause for concern unless this and and that and whatever, is throwing caution to the wind. Maybe it is, maybe it isnāt.
What Iām pointing out is that everyone does not agree with your view. You canāt unequivocally prove your point, and neither can some of the opposing views. There is no reason to get mad at anyone here for having their own beliefs based on what THEY see, and there is no reason to fly off the rails if someone can see a flaw, from THEIR PERSPECTIVE, in your argument. Thatās called debate and I guarantee you that this will ALWAYS have differing opinions.
This is the issue I take with your group man. You guys simply CANNOT accept the fact that you very well may be proven wrong. Your docs are so adamant that they are right, that they refuse to listen to and deal with any intelligent argument. If you donāt agree with that statement, then where is @dbossa? Where is @yeti308? Where is Scott Howell? Where is Dr Rouzier?
I donāt see them anymore. Why is that? Because they refuse to listen to anything that could imply that their views are less than perfect. Thatās the big difference in the two sides of this argument.
Most of us would LOVE to be wrong, and be able to push test doses to the max without repercussions. We are HOPING that you guys prove this to be true and do so without question. I for one would have no problem admitting that āhey, you guys were right!ā if this theory stand the test of time.
But your group is just the oppositeā¦if someone died from complications of the suggested protocol from your group tomorrow, ALL of you would spend countless hours trying to find any cause other than complications arising from your protocol practices. And not for the sake of getting to the absolute truth either, but more for the sake of extreme fear of being wrong.
Thatās my problem with your group, and your docs brother. And yes, I speak from my own opinions. Feel free to have your own.
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Will check in tomorrow, I have some thoughts and/or commentary I wish to share on what Iāve read so far but now Iām going to sleeeeeeeeeppp yeeeeeeet my favourite part of the daaaaaayyyyyy
Iāve enjoyed your posts. Iām more concerned about some other folks who seem to be stuck in that concrete thinking phase thatās supposed to stop around age 10.
When I was woking out consistently, before my recent 2 year hiatus to learn how to wrestle 400 pound Grouper and 14 foot Tiger Sharks, there wasnāt enough weight in the YMCA for me to deadlift.
I know you and your pencil leg friends were fine with it though, since all you do is 25lb curlsā¦
Wouldnāt it be more dependent on the actual blood results? As someone who can push over 2k TT, and 4 times the top of range FT, with 140mg a week this would be of importance to me.
Whatever you have to tell yourself to make the shrieking of the lambs go away, Clarice.
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