Same. I don’t post much but I can’t stand to see new people trying to understand things being driven in a certain direction. For the most part too much of anything isn’t good. We basically went from improving estrogen symptoms by just throwing more t on the fire to actually supplementing with estrogen. And none of the arguments made much sense for it. It’s a proven medical fact that certain cancers feed on estrogen so why run the risk if we don’t have to? I don’t use an ai anymore and feel much better but my e2 stays in the mid 30s to around 40 but I can see where there is a need to use one in certain people. This just isn’t a one size fits all. Same for the HCT we now know it’s not the same as pvc but it’s probably not very good long term to let it get out of control. Moderation in anything is key.
What is the chance after 6 months of TRT I get back my nowadays levels of testosterone?
Pretty good actually. Really good. Testosterone is not very suppressive, but estrogen sure is. If you let your E2 run wild your gonna have a lot harder time recovering. Almost as if you had taken Tren.
There is also a possibility that you come back stronger. Some studies show a small amount of people, that have idiopathic hypogonadism take testosterone and actually restore endogenous levels after like a year of treatment, and bring them up higher than before. I know this is a very specific group, but we have seen this happen. Studies on HCG have shown this too.
Sometimes T is the boost you need to get your nutrition and physical activity on track, and your head straight. So for some reason it can actually work pretty good.
Sounds nice. But I do not plan to control my E2, now its like 27 hope I don’t have issues with it.
Before I had 40-50 E2 when I was fatter and I felt pretty good but my free Test was like 23-25 ng/l
I spend a lot of time on these forums learning. I do not post a lot, but on this topic I would only add one thing. Many here followed the “pied piper” to a place of E of 22 was optimal and it was a disaster for many, while working for many. Now the narrative has reversed 360 and let it go (E) as high as it will…the body will sort it out in the end. I too see this working well for many and being a disaster for many. Let’s face it folks we all respond differently to protocols and hormone replacement. After 4 years and trying every delivery possibly…hcg/no hcg…AI/no AI, pellets, creams, T/cyp, T/enth…you name it I have tried it…I have found my sweet spot. It does align with some of the op’s views.,not all. I do not suppress E, but my level does not reach over 45. I target 30ng/dL Free T…I feel great there. I do use HCG because I have experienced painful atrophy and shrinkage and it totally eliminates that. Works for me, does not mean it will work for you!
I’m not reading 400 posts to see if this was answered, so if it was already then apologies. The answer is actually mind-numbingly simple: insurance companies have a vested interest in dropping the ranges. The fewer people fall below the “new” low, the fewer patients they have to cover. Trt is not something they want to cover because it is in most cases a lifetime treatment. That’s expensive as Hell for them and if they can reduce the number of covered patients then it saves them a shitload of money over decades. These guys don’t think in quarterly increments, they think in terms of lifetimes. It’s the definition of motivated reasoning.
My local labs have the same ranges now as they did six years ago. Not sure about others.
I’ve never given blood. It’s damn near impossible for me to do it for reasons that are. It worth going in to. My hct climbed higher than I was comfortable with so in response I lowered my dosage and have increased the use of naringrin (which seemed to have helped a bit in the past). At some point I’ll be stuck doing a bloodletting I suppose. But I want to see how I respond to a lower dose for the next four months.
Well we know that Free T should be 2% of total. So even if you have 1,000 TT levels, that is 20ng/dl. That aligns with ranges provided of men who are 30 years old being the highest and the range going up to 20 ng/dl for them.
Also that is at the highest. The timing of the draw is important to differentiate your actual median levels. If you are posting a 45 ng/dl in your trough, your peak is A LOT higher than that.
But if you get a trough of 15, you are probably hitting 30 at your highest point.
We have always found guys do better with cholesterol, HCT and other side effects if the trough numbers are in the top 1/3 of range. Thats where people feel good in our opinion.
But that doesn’t mean your levels are always within range, they are going up immediately after injection, and slowly falling during the period of time you are waiting for your next injection.
So if your doing daily injections and your free T comes in at 30 ng/dl that is not a big deal. But if you’re doing weekly then we think that is just too high long-term.
Not sure why this was to me. I just stated that the labs around here have the same ranges as they had when I started 6years ago.
The point is the lab ranges are pointless. You do not need them to know what is physiological and what is supraphysiological. When it comes to free T.
I get this. I was just responding to the question of why labs keep lowering ranges and the labs around here haven’t changed at all. I said nothing about levels.
I understand. I am simply pointing out that even if they did change the range, which I have not seen a test go up to 40, it wouldn’t matter anyway because it is a matter of opinion of that lab. But simple math shows that 20 ng/dl is about as high as people get naturally.
Nothing has really been standardized for testosterone deficiency testing, which is one of the problems.
I’ve never given blood.
The great thing about this thread is it highlights who posts legitimate differing arguments with actual points (whether you agree with them or not) as well as those that will agree for the sake of feeling included and don’t really contribute anything (usually a smart ass answer or put-down meant to signal support to another). Just saying it’s good to know the difference for when trying to figure out who to legitimately take advice from in future threads where it may not always be so evident.
For anyone new the takeaway I get from this thread is “we are still figuring this shit out & you have to figure out what works for you because although people can argue one way or the other for 500 posts no one really has a definite answer”.
Well there is kind of a generally accepted practice for TRT. The reason why “there are no studies” as @dbossa proclaims is because no one is stupid enough to put patients 3 x the physiological range for years at a time to get any data on what happens when you do.
But we can infer a lot from what happens when people do steroids for long periods, and that is how the current TRT general practice is molded. Levels within physiological range. You start going well above that, all bets are off on if it is good or bad for you.
I know you have concerns about hct and rightfully so as everyone should especially long term. Just sharing what I’ve learned over my journey. I was always donating blood because we were told anything over 50 was bad. Well eventually I bottomed out my ferritin and felt absolutely terrible. Was referred to a hematologist because my MCV was low. This Dr stated the obvious that was making myself anemic by donating so much and that hct increase due to trt was not as dangerous as once thought and not at all like PCV because the blood is not sticky and there are other coagulation factors at stake. I didn’t really like this and went for a second opinion. Different hematologist a professor at Brown University stated the exact same thing. Now they also both said once we start seeing over 55 it’s time to start thinking about phlebotomy or lowering dose. They do compare it to people living with things like copd as they tend to have higher hct. They don’t like comparing it to people living at high elevation especially in places like the Andes or Himalayas because their bodies have adapted over many generations so they’re not exactly sure of the mechanisms at play. Long story short is not to panic if you’re in the 50-53 range and stay there. I personally get phlebotomy every 16 weeks at a half a unit just for peace of mind as I travel long haul quite a bit and I just feel better about it. My hct at its highest ever was at 53 but a few days later was at 49 and I know I was hydrated better the second test. Again moderation is key.
Well this question has been posed before and Danny said he would wait for yeti to answer it but it never happened. There are three of us, that I know of, that when our E2 gets high, our ejaculate decreases by up to 90%. Im not saying it is def related to E2, it may be something else getting higher along with T and E2, but it def happens and when I was on an AI a year or so ago it fixed it while T was still higher. So what is the mechanism here? The orgasm feels the same there is just barely any delivery. @dbossa @yeti308 @bcostigan41 @alldayeveryday
And I also forgot to add obviously other risk factors play into where the cutoff should be. Somebody with hypertension, diabetes or anything else that could affect the heart or vascular system should probably have a lower cutoff number than a young perfectly healthy athlete.
Yea and he has the audacity to call us a T mill!!! What a joke.