Yup and to note for those reading, that lab was taken 8 days after injection. So we can assume that my free T got close to 20, and that my TT got close to 2,000.
So if you ask me I am already flirting with the boundaries of what’s normal.
This will be my last post on this site.
Being incompetent in a certain area is one thing. Being incompetent in an area that is your livelihood, that you have been doing for 10 years (apparently for @increasemyt case), which involves the health of men in desperate need of help, is inexcusable.
For those of you who want to continue to believe this individual, be my guest. I can assure you that you are doing yourself a disservice.
Before I go, I will demonstrate the sheer ignorance in what is being proposed. It is, absolutely, demonstrably, sheer ignorance.
#1 Literature showing anabolic steroid use for a duration of more than 2 years increases your risk of stroke or heart attack.
Here is a newsflash for you: testosterone is NOT considered an anabolic steroid. I know this may hurt your brain but I invite you to look it up for yourself. Anabolic steroids are SYNTHETIC DERIVATIVES of testosterone. Testosterone is a NATURALLY OCCURRING HORMONE in the body. Are we following so far? The link points to men specifically taking synthetic anabolic steroids that were derived from testosterone. Yes, we have known for years that these synthetic compounds can be dangerous, and nobody is arguing that. However, then you take the other side of the page and see men doing LOW DOSE nandrolone for joint and overall recovery and it has been a life changer for them. Food for thought. In our case, we are talking about testosterone and not anabolics. As for testosterone, since @increasemyt enjoys drowning everyone in studies, here’s a study that demonstrates 600mg of testosterone a week over a 10 week period caused NO HARM whatsoever. We don’t currently have any studies that go longer than that, but Dr Nichols and Dr Howell are working on it.
That’s right. 600mg of testosterone over 10 weeks only provided benefits. Imagine that. So men taking 200mg of testosterone for TRT purposes, which is a THIRD of the dose here, are SAFE contrary to what this moron is trying to lead you to believe.
#2 High testosterone levels are associated with myocardial infarction in older men
This is an observation study done on baseline men. Again. This is not an interventional study. What is the difference you ask @markis655 ? Here is an example of a baseline study. We took 100 men who were obese, had cardiovascular disease, fatty liver, kidney failure, and then we measured their E2. E2 levels were very high. Therefore, high E2 is associated with obesity, cardiovascular disease, fatty liver, kidney failure.
WRONG! They have high E2 BECAUSE they are obese! The obesity is what causes the high E2. It’s not the high E2 that is causing the obesity. Do you follow? Plus, these men are not on TRT. These are baseline men, not on any kind of HRT. So what’s the difference with an interventional study? The difference is they GIVE TESTOSTERONE to these men and see what the result is. IN EVERY SINGLE INTERVENTIONAL STUDY WHERE THEY GAVE MEN TESTOSTERONE THEY IMPROVED!!!
Guys, learn the DIFFERENCE between observational studies and interventional studies. Learn the difference between studies done on BASELINE MEN and studies done on TRT. This is when you will begin to understand the literature. Right now, you don’t, and this is where everyone is getting confused.
#3 High estrogen levels due to hormone therapy in men are associated with increased chance of blood clots and type 2 diabetes.
I want you to re-read my answer for #2. Now go see the study that he provides for this. This is a study for people changing genders. Tell me, what happens when a man changes from man to woman? They give high doses of estrogen, right? What else do they do? They do androgen deprivation to deprive him of testosterone. Yes, that can cause issues! Same thing for women changing into men! But how the hell is that relevant to a man on TRT?? It isn’t! I’m not depriving myself of testosterone? Are you? For every single man taking testosterone, if they GAVE him ESTROGEN, it caused NO HARM, not to mention there are men that IMPROVE by taking estrogen. There are several men I know who take BOTH testosterone and estrogen as testosterone alone caused an imbalance in their physiology. They actually required both. Again, after learning about #2, find me an interventional study where a man on HRT was given either testosterone or estrogen and it caused harm. Let’s all repeat this together: THERE ARE NONE.
My name is Danny Bossa. If any of you want to follow up with me directly on what I’ve written here you can look me up on FB and PM me there. Every time I come here and try to help people I am always met with this type of nonsense. Then I feel guilty for taking time away from the people in our group who value the help I’ve been giving them. Not to mention, the way that Dr Nichols gets spoken to here is atrocious. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
I will not be returning to this site again. I wish you guys all the best of luck.
This is good.
Actually never had a FB account, will get one just to join Danny.
I see a group think mentality here again with guys that think they are experts and don’t want to listen to anything else. And start giving out bad advice.
This is true. Driving away people with different opinions.
#1 Testosterone is no doubt a steroid. It has a androgenic/anabolic ratio of 10/10
#2 The difference is actually retrospective vs observational
#3 Not all of the men take androgen depravation therapy. But it really doesn’t matter if they did or didn’t because high dose estradiol is androgen depravation therapy in and of itself because it is so suppressive.
@dbossa have you ever considered that you need so much T cause you took so much T? You do realize testosterone is just a messenger signal it does not do anything? Testosterone activates androgen receptors, to a certain affinity. It is like turning on a light switch. You don’t feel a certain way because of the testosterone, you feel a certain way because of the androgenic effect of turning on that light switch. Lets say I have a 100 androgen receptors and I take 100mg per week.
Compare that to someone who has 10 androgen receptors and takes 1,000 mg per week.
They both will have the SAME EXACT androgenic effect, the only difference, is the latter will have more side effects. You do not understand the testosterone dose response relationship.
The higher you go you the less positive effect you get per mg, and the more negative side effects per mg.
It is not linear as you suggest in your writings.
@dbossa @increasemyt Please dont fight, I wanna ask:
The free test measured in my lab last was 17 ng/L EIA Range 8-22
What does it mean in your units? When I convert to ng/dl online its 10 times difference. Im missing something…
Thats 170 pg/ml, about perfect depending on your dosing schedule.
Wait a minute, so now testosterone isn’t an anabolic steroid? Only synthetic derivatives are? This whole thread is just getting reckless. Testosterone is the main anabolic steroid and test c or e people are taking is absolutely synthetic because it’s made in a lab( or bathtub depending where you get it from). It was stated earlier that lab ranges don’t matter at all Justin how you feel is all that matters yet the number 35 keeps being thrown around so the range does matter to a point just when it fits the argument needed. By that argument why use lab ranges for anything? You could say well my igf is super high and I look like Andre the Giant but I feel fucking great or any other lab range for that matter. This thread is the testosterone version of KS Man telling everyone they need to drink a gallon of iodine a day because he had a specific issue and felt the need to push that on everyone. If you’re new to trt you should stay away from this thread.
6 Likes
Danny, I hate to see you go man… That being said…
You are demonstrating the very principal that keeps just about ANY analytically thinking person from learning anything from you man. You have not stayed the course. You have FAILED to prove your side of things, and you have FAILED to address real concerns that were brought up that would punch holes in the theory. And…you are running away like a child that doesn’t get his way.
I lost all respect for @yeti308 (Nichols), and your boy Scott Howell for this very reason. If they were actually half as right all the time as they thought they were, then they would get on here and completely destroy this debate. They would offer evidence that could not be disputed in any way. Instead, since they can’t do that, and they will also NEVER admit the fact that they COULD be wrong (time will tell)… They run away in anger…I have ZERO respect for that. Sorry that’s just how I feel about it…
I say that you have failed because of this…Instead of addressing the points that are being brought up, you offer some counter argument that completely avoids the question at hand. It just going in circles brother. And this is not just on you alone Danny btw, I’ve seen this from both sides of the argument to some extent. I feel like I’ve been reading the transcript from the **name your party affiliation here ** political debates. Lots of talking, with no real unequivocally proven points.(I do give exception to @anon18050987 because this guy not only knows his shit, but is he is also the one who’s points are most ignored in this debate. Wonder why that is? Perhaps because his argument has no holes to escape though?..)
I wish you luck with the group Danny, and I hope with all hope that 20 years from now you can still tout the same views. I really hope you guys have found the fountain of youth and can enlighten the world some day.
1 Like
Im not on TRT and I consider starting.
3 months ago the range was up to 40, now is up to 22… total mess
1 Like
Lmao. So true though.
1 Like
You can’t compare eugonadal levels to injection levels. The idea of measuring T is that you do it in your trough, at your lowest point.
So if you are on a 7 day schedule and your free T was 17 then you can assume it was actually up at 34-40 the day after the shot.
When you are natural, your levels do not fluctuate that much.
If I understand the topic correctly most probably I need to get over 30 ng/l to fix my symptoms, right?
Im confused because of the units you and @dbossa post into
Now this will be supra according to my lab but 4 months ago was not. This is crazy
1 Like
Thats high in my opinion and our clients do not get that very high often. Some anemia problems and your doing 300mg per week and it can get that high.
But no, we have never found a reason to run it that high. In fact, in older men, when free T is that high they don’t seem to feel as good.
Younger guys can handle more T and benefit from it, some people you give them that much T and their cholesterol and HCT immediately goes crazy.
I don’t ever remember seeing LabCorp at range of 40. I found a old Lab Corp lab from 2015 last night and the top of the range was 26.
No blood donations. I do donate double platelets 4 times a year.
I dont know man this is German lab and I have symptoms at 17 ng/L
Total T is like 500-600 SHBG 43
You have the same T3 as me. I consider starting armour
You would get a far better result, and much less sides by optimizing both T and GH levels. I am pretty sure T is suppressive to the somatropic axis, so it really benefits men with a history of AAS or TRT.
@vonko1988 TRT is a personal decision. I can tell you the risks and benefits, but you are the one who has to decide if thats what you want to do. I love TRT and I wouldn’t have it any other way, but there are negatives to it. For one, I am SO SICK of injecting. I hate it.
Also the sex drive can almost be too much sometimes, and I stopped taking it for like a year and gained 20 pounds right away. I got into scuba diving / spearfishing and you can’t work out within 24 hours of going out, and I go like 3 times a week. So I just kind of lost interest, so I am just cruising along.
So it’s a big commitment. To go on lifelong TRT.
Why not try TRT for 6 months and then do a restart? Then decide if you want to do TRT for life. Short durations of testosterone are actually pretty effective and the literature does not find any negative consequences to that. Its the long term supraphysiological levels that are an issue.